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Thread: Rise of the Guardians! (VGC '13)

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    Post Rise of the Guardians! (VGC '13)

    Introduction

    What is up?

    Some of you might know me from a few other VGC RMTs (it's been a long while though, and I've noticed that the RMT forum has changed drastically, so I doubt anyone here does), but I will have you know that for once, this is not a Trick Room RMT. Actually, this is my first functioning team that is not Trick Room, after making like, 6 different Trick Room teams. So let's get started!

    What You Need to Know Before Rating This Team

    1. This is a Doubles Team, NOT A SINGLES TEAM. The two metagames are drastically different. I also play by VGC Rules, not Smogon Doubles. So, while I will do my best to value any criticism or suggestion, it would much more helpful if you had some sort of idea of what you were talking about.
    2. I am not very fond of Legendaries. I know, I know, the age old argument is an age old. I prefer creative, abstract, non-standard teams, and I have a bit of role playing in me. So Legendary suggestions will be politely turned down. Apologies in advance.
    3. This will be used on an actual cartridge. That said, I do not have access to Hidden Powers, as i do not RNG (more because I am incapable rather than unwilling). Also, IVs are slightly less accurate.
    4. I am not standard. I try to use more creative, outside the box strategies. So I'm not likely going to swtich to a MetaCress core, or a CressTop core. Nor will I be likely to use those Pokemon.

    Rise of the Guardians, a History
    Spoiler tagged for your convenience

        Spoiler:- Team Building Notes:


    Team Spotlight

    With that all said, time to move on to the actual rate!


    Atria (F) @ Bug Gem
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 140 HP / 252 SAtk / 116 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Bug Buzz
    - Fire Blast
    - Quiver Dance
    - Protect


    Base 100 Speed is already really nice, so I've spared some Speed EVs for HP, to allow Atria to take a few hits better. However, when hit with a Rock move, there's nothing I can do about that.
    You may suggest using the Rock damage reducing berry, but the reason I opted for the Bug Gem was because it would allow me to OHKO Cresselia, and other Psychic types that may be considering setting up Trick Room, or Grass types. It also allows Atria to launch off a power STABed attack, regardless of whether it resists or not.
    I opted for Modest over Timid because, while Timid would help me outspeed a few things, that Speed is not as important as KOing things that otherwise would have survived.
    Finally, the reason I chose Fire Blast over Heat Wave, a spread move, is because of the extra power. Spread moves are already reduced damage, so that's already counter beneficial. Fire Blast, while lacking in accuracy, allow me to powerhouse through anything that would otherwise survive.



    ToothFairy (F) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Follow Me
    - Aura Sphere
    - Thunder Wave


    ToothFairy runs a fairly standard set. Sitrus Berry aids its survivability, which is crucial as she needs to survive in order to help her teammates.
    Her EV Spread is set up so that she can take hits, particularly physical hits, while still being able to deal damage. Modest Nature aids ToothFairy in attacking.
    Follow Me is crucial to her set, as it allows her teammates set up whatever they need to set up (Volcarona Quiver Dance, Scrafty Dragon Dance), or survive an extra turn, so that they can KO something that would otherwise cause problems. Thunder Wave was included over Protect, or another coverage move so that she could help skewer the Speed of Pokemon that were faster than most of her partners, or to slow down her own partners if she needs to (*coughcoughTrickRoom*)



    Easter (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Blizzard
    - Flamethrower
    - Protect


    A long time ago, I used a Nidoqueen. And with the same investment, she was able to dish out some pretty painful hits. Now, however, I needed something a bit speedier, so I opted for her faster, more powerful man-friend.
    Sheer Force + Life Orb + Base 92 Special Attack leaves you with a monster. While Modest would be nice, I figured a little more Speed would be more beneficial, as I'm more worried about not being able to KO something because they KO me first. I did invest in HP though. Easter's fairly bulky, to an extent, and he has great typing as long as I do't have to worry about Ground, Water, or Ice attacks.
    Attacks are pretty basic. Fire's an important type in this metagame, with Scizor and other Steel types running amuck, so I went with Flamethrower in case Atria goes down too early. Blizzard is a must, as it allows me to not have to rely on Empoleon or Abomasnow for Ice attacks, and Ice is an important attack in the VGC metagame. Earth Power is my main attack, as well as the main reason I wanted Nidoking. A Ground attack is very hard to pull off in this metagame, as, besides Earthquake which is severely limiting, they are spread far and few between. Earth Power allows me to hit with a great STAB attack, and hit Pokemon like Metagross and Tyranitar, and less importantly Heatran. Protect allows me to stall for turns and such.

    I am unsure about whether I want to use Thunderbolt here over Flamethrower. Thunderbolt would be great in a metagame with an influx of Rain teams, but Easter has no business facing against Rain teams. So I'm not quite sure where I stand on this matter.



    North (M) @ Ice Gem
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Blizzard
    - Grass Knot
    - Protect


    Empoleon has been fairly great to me. I used him originally on my Trick Room team, and he's been so useful. After switching him over to my new team, North has done a great job of serving as a tank. His nature and EVs allow him to take hits well, while still being able to maximize my damage output.
    I chose Hydro Pump over Scald because Scald has such dismal base power, it's almost useless unless I'm aiming for a Burn. I'd much rather KO than Burn. Blizzard provides a staple Ice move on a Water type, which is still very important. Blizzard also allows North to take on Dragon types without much worry, especially with an Ice Gem. Grass Knot allows me to hit Gastrodon, who is a huge pain to Empoleon. And Protect allows me to stall for turns and such.



    JackFrost (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Focus Blast
    - Giga Drain
    - Sheer Cold


    JackFrost serves a simple purpose; divert weather and Blizzard spam.
    I also do have to have other attacks on his set. Focus Blast for just in case I'm up against something that is weak to Fighting, and I find an opportunity for it. Giga Drain is so that JackFrost has some form of recovery, as way as a way to actually deal with Rain teams that it normally comes in on. Ice Shard is for just in case I just need something late game, and I only need a little bit of attacking power to KO the other Pokemon.
    Honestly though, Abomasnow Blizzard Spam.



    Pitch (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Steadfast
    EVs: 252 HP / 204 Atk / 52 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Psycho Cut
    - Night Slash
    - Trick RoomSwords Dance


    My replacement Scrafty/Heracross.
    Similar coverage, better defensive typing. Somewhat bulky. Extra coverage.
    The EV spread is set up to consistently remain offensive, while still making use of its defensive power.
    Steadfast is ideal because I do not believe Pitch is going to be hit by Dark attacks very often, and Fake Outs are a common thing. Rock Slide is also very common, and also a very common attack I will be wanting Pitch to take for the team. This helps take care of Pitch's somewhat middling Speed.
    I went with Drain Punch because I don't like the defensive drops from Close Combat, and it allows Pitch to nab some nifty HP. Psycho Cut > Zen Headbutt for a few reasons. Psycho Cut is only 10 pts. less base power, has better accuracy, and has an increased Critical Hit rate. Not as cool as a flinch, maybe, but it's a little more reliable. I think an extra KO is a little better than stopping an attack that is stopped by KOs anyways. Night Slash over Shadow Sneak because it'll actually net me a KO. And Swords Dance because ToothFairy actually allows me to have a turn to set up, and the +2 can help Pitch OHKO pretty much everything.



        Spoiler:- Switched Out:



    Closure

    And that is my team! I don't have access to any of the real life tournaments, but I do participate frequently on online Tournaments, and on the GBU, which uses the same ruleset as VGC. I am entering the 2013 International Challenge as well.

    Thanks for your help!
    Last edited by jstinftw!; 23rd January 2013 at 12:09 PM.

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  2. #2
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    I'm no expert in VGC but trust me, Hi Jump Kick on Scrafty is way too risky with the ubiquitous Protect and Detect. Use Drain Punch instead. Also, Heatwave on Volc. Seems likea good team. Love the title of this thread btw :3 GL in the championships ;D

    EDIT: RSlide > SEdge on Scrafty, for hitting both opponents, with flinch chance, as well as more accuracy.
    Last edited by SkyDriver; 17th January 2013 at 10:22 PM.
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    i would recommend running drain punch on scrafty... plus... running dragon dance in doubles is quite uhhh... risky >.>
    also, i would try and fit fake out on that set instead of dragon dance.
    also dont run speed on scrafty. you need some slower pokemon to counter trick room well.

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    Like both of them said, Drain Punch on Scarfty is MUCH more reliable. I know you like the power, but Drain Punch does a much better job complimenting Scarfty's bulk while still getting the boosts from Dragon Dance. Hi Jump Kick isn't as reliable because almost every team has >50% of their members carrying protect. Btw, I love Scarfty. He is a much preferred intimidate support for me. I usually use him over top, and he works just that much better.

    (note: some of these rates are assuming you have 31 IVs in the stats that you ev trained your pokemon in)

    With Volcarona, I see no reason to run 156 Speed EVs. I don't see it outrunning anything in particular (other than speed tying with +Spe Nidoqueen). 116 Speed EVs seem a lot more reliable to your bulkier approach. It can outspeed +Spe 252 EV [base 70s] Brelooms and Ludicolo, and it can outspeed base 130s after 1 quiver dance. IF you are going for a speedier approach, 188 Spe EVs will let you Outspeed Adamant LAndorus - T.

    On Togekiss, are you planning on OHKOing/2HKOing any Pokemon in particular with 100 SpA EVs? To OHKO Tyranitar with Aura Sphere, you need 220 SpA EVs. It will always 2HKO them otherwise. Hitmontop is always 2HKO'd with Air Slash, even without your SpA investment. So, I thought you might as well get some more bulk to take a few more hits.

    On Nidoking, I suggest giving him a bit more speed investment. Regardless, he won't be able to take many hits regardless of EV spreads. And you are better off having Togekiss using Follow me to redirect attacks aimed toward Nodiking. I was thinking more of 204 Speed EVs to outspeed Landorus-T. Also, I see Nidoking as a check to Steel types more than anything else. So, Flamethrower should be on the set.

    On Abomasnow, I would really suggest considering the move Sheer Cold. You are better off relying on sheer cold in times when you are pushed up against the wall than you are with the freeze or crit. Since Abomasnow is fast enough, and is really going to Blizzard spam 90% of the time, it could replace Ice Shard.

    On Scarfty, I personally prefer Ice Punch, but Stone Edge isn't a bad idea.

    I hope I helped ^_^
    I remember running a team similar to this with Scarfty (of course, it didn't run DD), Abomasnow, Nidoking, and Volcarona a while back, and I really liked it. GL with this team!


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    I'm going to have to agree with the consensus here about Scrafty. Hi Jump Kick is very risky, especially after you take all the time to set up. Drain Punch has plenty of power, I run my Scrafty with almost no attack EV's and it still deals plenty of damage. With all those attack EV's, the Expert Belt, and Dragon Dance, you'll have no trouble making up for the lower base power, and it will help recover any Hp lost from setting up Dragon Dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shreyas View Post
    On Abomasnow, I would really suggest considering the move Sheer Cold. You are better off relying on sheer cold in times when you are pushed up against the wall than you are with the freeze or crit. Since Abomasnow is fast enough, and is really going to Blizzard spam 90% of the time, it could replace Ice Shard.
    No, bad idea. Even if you get lucky and nab a KO with Sheer Cold, you'll just be begging for a ragequit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvershark View Post
    No, bad idea. Even if you get lucky and nab a KO with Sheer Cold, you'll just be begging for a ragequit.
    Well, I'd have to say that anyone that d/cs when an OHKO move hits them would have d/c'd anyway and they will be risking being ban from future events. The thing about this metagame is that you want to do whatever you can to maximize your chances of winning a battle, which sheer cold will give you closer to the end of the battle. This is especially true when Abomasnow is alone up against a Pokemon like Heatran or Cresselia. Regardless of how the battle will end up in the end, you should always play in such a way you will maximize your chances of winning it. Sheer Cold will get you this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreyas View Post
    Well, I'd have to say that anyone that d/cs when an OHKO move hits them would have d/c'd anyway and they will be risking being ban from future events. The thing about this metagame is that you want to do whatever you can to maximize your chances of winning a battle, which sheer cold will give you closer to the end of the battle. This is especially true when Abomasnow is alone up against a Pokemon like Heatran or Cresselia. Regardless of how the battle will end up in the end, you should always play in such a way you will maximize your chances of winning it. Sheer Cold will get you this.
    The people who DC when they lose will still DC, there's no stopping that. But there are those people who don't normally DC, but would deem a win gained through luck not skill as justification enough to DC, especially if they have a high score to preserve and feel it's worth the risk of disqualification. It's just as important to minimize the number of DC's possible as it is to win, particularly with the heavy handed approach taken to DCers. Better to play it safe and keep the honest players honest. Besides, an experienced player would know better than to get into a situation where Abomasnow is up alone against a Heatran.

    And I just have to say something here...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shreyas View Post
    The thing about this metagame is that you want to do whatever you can to maximize your chances of winning a battle,
    Lol, in what metagame do you not try to maximize your chances of winning a battle?
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    30% is maximizing your chances? xD Only use I've ever had for an OHKO move was in PMD1 when I linked Mind Reader to Sheer Cold on my Articuno.

    I may not know VGC that well but I do know relying on a 30% chance to win in a situation you really shouldn't be getting into is a pretty bad idea in every tier and even if they weren't banned in the Smogon tiers they'd almost never be used except on trolly sure-hit move/OHKO move sets. Which only Articuno and Smeargle can run anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by loco1234 View Post
    30% is maximizing your chances? xD Only use I've ever had for an OHKO move was in PMD1 when I linked Mind Reader to Sheer Cold on my Articuno.

    I may not know VGC that well but I do know relying on a 30% chance to win in a situation you really shouldn't be getting into is a pretty bad idea in every tier and even if they weren't banned in the Smogon tiers they'd almost never be used except on trolly sure-hit move/OHKO move sets. Which only Articuno and Smeargle can run anyway.
    Lapras + Machamp is a pretty trolly (albeit gimmicky) combo. Machamp gets No Guard and Lapras is bulky as hell and learns 3 out of 4 OHKO moves.

    Of course, I wouldn't recommend it.
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    What I'm really trying to say is that an OHKO move is not a terrible idea to run. I mean, running Sheer Cold > Ice Shard seems a little more useful, in my opinion. And, it's not that I'm saying "use sheer cold to win all your battles" It's more of a last resort. Sometimes, using that sheer cold could be the best bet you have to win. Yeah, I really do understand where you're coming from though. The use of OHKO moves isn't reliable if you have another option to turn to, but there will be times you will not, and you are better off praying for a hit through sheer cold than a freeze through blizzard. But, I can see that I stand alone on this point. No harm done ^^

    Also, saying that any good player will not get into this situation doesn't seem like a good way to look at this. Every player good or bad get into those situations. They only take their best precautions to stay away from it.
    Last edited by Shreyas; 19th January 2013 at 1:42 AM.


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    So consensus is to switch Drain Punch in instead of HJK. I'll go ahead and try that, since it does make sense. Thanks guys!

    Anyways,

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyDriver View Post
    I'm no expert in VGC but trust me, Hi Jump Kick on Scrafty is way too risky with the ubiquitous Protect and Detect. Use Drain Punch instead. Also, Heatwave on Volc. Seems likea good team. Love the title of this thread btw :3 GL in the championships ;D

    EDIT: RSlide > SEdge on Scrafty, for hitting both opponents, with flinch chance, as well as more accuracy.
    Thanks! I'll do my best. xD
    As for Heat Wave and Rock Slide, while they do offer that spread and may have better accuracy, their damage output is lowered by 30%, if I'm not mistaken. Might be 25%. But I'm more worried about KOing Pokemon 1 on 1 than trying to get possible KOs. If anything, I'll add Heat Wave to Togekiss, but I'm not too worried about Fire Blast vs. Heat Wave. As for Rock Slide, base 75 time by 1.3 off of a base 90 Attack stat does not really sound too appealing for me. I'd rather Ice Punch, but I already mentioned why I wanted SE.

    Thanks for the rate though! I'm very thankful. (:

    Quote Originally Posted by joej m View Post
    i would recommend running drain punch on scrafty... plus... running dragon dance in doubles is quite uhhh... risky >.>
    also, i would try and fit fake out on that set instead of dragon dance.
    also dont run speed on scrafty. you need some slower pokemon to counter trick room well.
    I may consider taking out some Speed EVs in lieu of less Speed, but I'm not too worried about Trick Room. I've been able to Protect-switch stall fairly easily, plus I do have Empoleon. Volcarona+Togekiss have proven to be able to stop Trick Room anyways, so long as its not like Chandelure setting up.. The main reason I want Scrafty to be a bit faster is so that he can fill the gap I created when I switched Hercaross out for him. If Scrafty is always slow, he won't be much of a threat, as they can always just outspeed him 2 turns in a row and take him out. Dragon Dance hasn't proven to be a pain either; with Togekiss Follow Me'ing, it can reliably get a Dragon Dance up and start running through some Pokemon. Plus, I don't really need to Fake Out for anything. It's an extra turn sure, but I'd rather set up and threaten things than make it flinch for a turn.

    Thanks for the rate though! I will consider running less Speed EVs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shreyas View Post
    Like both of them said, Drain Punch on Scarfty is MUCH more reliable. I know you like the power, but Drain Punch does a much better job complimenting Scarfty's bulk while still getting the boosts from Dragon Dance. Hi Jump Kick isn't as reliable because almost every team has >50% of their members carrying protect. Btw, I love Scarfty. He is a much preferred intimidate support for me. I usually use him over top, and he works just that much better.

    (note: some of these rates are assuming you have 31 IVs in the stats that you ev trained your pokemon in)

    With Volcarona, I see no reason to run 156 Speed EVs. I don't see it outrunning anything in particular (other than speed tying with +Spe Nidoqueen). 116 Speed EVs seem a lot more reliable to your bulkier approach. It can outspeed +Spe 252 EV [base 70s] Brelooms and Ludicolo, and it can outspeed base 130s after 1 quiver dance. IF you are going for a speedier approach, 188 Spe EVs will let you Outspeed Adamant LAndorus - T.

    On Togekiss, are you planning on OHKOing/2HKOing any Pokemon in particular with 100 SpA EVs? To OHKO Tyranitar with Aura Sphere, you need 220 SpA EVs. It will always 2HKO them otherwise. Hitmontop is always 2HKO'd with Air Slash, even without your SpA investment. So, I thought you might as well get some more bulk to take a few more hits.

    On Nidoking, I suggest giving him a bit more speed investment. Regardless, he won't be able to take many hits regardless of EV spreads. And you are better off having Togekiss using Follow me to redirect attacks aimed toward Nodiking. I was thinking more of 204 Speed EVs to outspeed Landorus-T. Also, I see Nidoking as a check to Steel types more than anything else. So, Flamethrower should be on the set.

    On Abomasnow, I would really suggest considering the move Sheer Cold. You are better off relying on sheer cold in times when you are pushed up against the wall than you are with the freeze or crit. Since Abomasnow is fast enough, and is really going to Blizzard spam 90% of the time, it could replace Ice Shard.

    On Scarfty, I personally prefer Ice Punch, but Stone Edge isn't a bad idea.

    I hope I helped ^_^
    I remember running a team similar to this with Scarfty (of course, it didn't run DD), Abomasnow, Nidoking, and Volcarona a while back, and I really liked it. GL with this team!
    Thank you for all of this. I'm really bad with EV spreads, as I can never really determine what kind of spread I need, as in the end, I usually end up with a 252/252 EV spread on things. Your suggestions are really helpful, and I will look into them. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvershark View Post
    I'm going to have to agree with the consensus here about Scrafty. Hi Jump Kick is very risky, especially after you take all the time to set up. Drain Punch has plenty of power, I run my Scrafty with almost no attack EV's and it still deals plenty of damage. With all those attack EV's, the Expert Belt, and Dragon Dance, you'll have no trouble making up for the lower base power, and it will help recover any Hp lost from setting up Dragon Dance.

    No, bad idea. Even if you get lucky and nab a KO with Sheer Cold, you'll just be begging for a ragequit.
    Hahah fair enough! I'm sold on Drain Punch. (:

    Quote Originally Posted by loco1234 View Post
    30% is maximizing your chances? xD Only use I've ever had for an OHKO move was in PMD1 when I linked Mind Reader to Sheer Cold on my Articuno.

    I may not know VGC that well but I do know relying on a 30% chance to win in a situation you really shouldn't be getting into is a pretty bad idea in every tier and even if they weren't banned in the Smogon tiers they'd almost never be used except on trolly sure-hit move/OHKO move sets. Which only Articuno and Smeargle can run anyway.
    I will definitely not rely on Sheer Cold to win matches. But I've seen it come through in tight situations. It's a last ditch effort for if you've had a bad game or you've seriously been outplayed.

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  12. #12
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    Hey guys! Decided to switch out Scrafty for Gallade. Thoughts on how to make it better?

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    that is a fairly useful switch. would put trick room on gallade and take all speed EV's of abamasnow. give it a speed lowering nature that raises sp attack. also change empoleons nature to the same thing.
    it will give your team a good trick room aspect to it. which will be very viable to your team. and give gallade this set (i literally just made it)
    Gallade @ Fighting Gem/ Sitrus Berry
    Careful nature
    252 hp/ 168 attack/ 98 sp defense
    Justified Ability (hidden ability)
    -close combat
    -zen headbutt
    -trick room
    -protect/shadow sneak ( i really recommend protect on this set )

    it can wall any dragon gem draco meteor in the metagame. as well as easily being able able to 2 hit KO hitmontop with zen headbutt, and is able to to easily KO any dark type in the metagame.

    also get 0 IV's of speed on abamasnow and empoleon. also give chople berry to empoleon and focus sash to abamasnow.
    Last edited by joej m; 21st January 2013 at 3:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joej m View Post
    that is a fairly useful switch. would put trick room on gallade and take all speed EV's of abamasnow. give it a speed lowering nature that raises sp attack. also change empoleons nature to the same thing.
    it will give your team a good trick room aspect to it. which will be very viable to your team. and give gallade this set (i literally just made it)
    Gallade @ Fighting Gem/ Sitrus Berry
    Careful nature
    252 hp/ 168 attack/ 98 sp defense
    -close combat
    -psycho cut
    -trick room
    -protect/shadow sneak ( i really recommend protect on this set )

    it can wall any dragon gem draco meteor in the metagame. as well as easily being able able to 2 hit KO hitmontop with zen headbutt, and is able to to easily KO any dark type in the metagame.

    also get 0 IV's of speed on abamasnow and empoleon. also give chople berry to empoleon and focus sash to abamasnow.
    Hahaha I'm trying to stay away from Trick Room with this team. I've been running Trick Room for almost three years, so I'd rather just prevent it from going up rather than run it as counter.

    Feel like you need a little more Pokemon in your life? Tune into our show!
    EPISODE 55 - SLOWPOKE HOLIDAY
    Looking for something Pokemon-related to listen to while playing through Pokemon XY? This episode is for you!!
    Released: 12/11/14


    Guess who claimed Luxray?!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Cebu, Philippines
    Posts
    1,256

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    Going back and gonna try a bit of what joej m suggested. I've noticed that I could sometimes use a Trick Room counter, and a little more investment in Def anyways. OP updated. (:

    Feel like you need a little more Pokemon in your life? Tune into our show!
    EPISODE 55 - SLOWPOKE HOLIDAY
    Looking for something Pokemon-related to listen to while playing through Pokemon XY? This episode is for you!!
    Released: 12/11/14


    Guess who claimed Luxray?!

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