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Thread: Has it ever occured to you that some types have a disadvantage over others?

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    Default Has it ever occured to you that some types have a disadvantage over others?

    I was thinking about Poison-types, and the type in general seems worse-off over every other type. It has only one type (Grass) weak against it, a plethora of things resistant to it, and two types (including itself) that are immune to it. It has the Poison status effect going for, but almost every type has a member who can inflict that, and two types again can't be poisoned. The only other things it has going for it are only two weaknesses and immunity to other Poison-types and Poisoning.

    On the other hand, Steel boasts only three weaknesses, a resistance to almost everything else (including the only resistance in the game to Dragon-type), and an immunity to Poison-types.

    Grass-types have five weaknesses (including the only one to Poison-types), and even more things resist it, whereas Electric-types have only one weakness.

    So, do you think that the typing system in general can be unbalanced and unfair on occasion?
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    Yes, I believe that several types are at a disadvantage, namely Poison, Bug, and Flying (though all but two Flying-typed Pokémon have another type). I really hope Game Freak begins balancing out the types, just as they did back in Gen II.

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    I think they sorted everything out in gen 2 when they put psychic down a notch. But I think there should be a slight improvement on poison type maybe it could be supper effective against bug and have another resistance.

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    I've never understood why dark is immune to psychic, but I guess it's only fair. Poison type may be at a disadvantage, but I could have sworn that poison was super-effective against bug, maybe it was in another gen., but I guess not in gen. 5. There are just things that are over-powered and under-powered in every game, whether you like it or not. The video game industry does not go by the philosophy of Karl Marx.
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    Most definitely. Types like Poison, Grass, and Bug have always been on the bottom of the food chain, so to speak. I do wish they would re-balance things a bit, but with so many types and things having been set the way they are for 3 generations now, I'm not sure how they'd go about doing it without making some drastic changes. They fixed a lot when they did the Physical special split, which finally brought some much needed relief to some types, (Almost all the ghosts being good at only special attacks, and yet Ghost moves are physical -__- ) but Idk what else they could really do without causing an upset with some people.

    At the same time though, you gotta remember, just because some types have disadvantages compared to others, doesn't mean the entire type can't excel. They just don't have it quite as easy.
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    I think the poison type is really the only type that should have been implemented better - it should have been super effective against Water. I know some people will disagree but it makes some sort of sense and would have made them infinitely more useful. They also should have stopped distributing Toxic to every single TM-learning Pokémon after gen one in my opinion, as it would be a move that would also make Poison types much more viable.

    That being said, I do value the Poison type on a defensive level, they are under-rated - resistance to Fighting is invaluable. Also the fact they can not just set but also absorb Toxic Spikes is cool. Plus if you plan on doing a monotype run in-game, poison is actually probably the best type - Weezing/specially defensive Drapion plus random Poison type x 4 and you're set!

    Poison is the only type I think needs slight tinkering with, not that I can ever see it actually happening this far into the series.

    EDIT: Just thought I'd add that it is 'natural' to have some creatures generally weaker than others, so I don't really mind it how it is now - Maybe Poison/Grass etc types needs a boost to keep up in the metagame but in real life most species walk all over insects (for example), so why should everything be balanced in the Pokémon world :P
    Last edited by Combo; 22nd January 2013 at 1:30 AM. Reason: thought moar
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    I think Poison is the only type that's clearly disadvantaged overall, really.

    Most of the rest I think, with no offense meant to anyone, is simply players who don't understand the types and how to use them effectively, or who have had bad experiences with one or another of the poor examples of that type and have extrapolated that out to a judgment of the type as a whole.

    And a LOT of the problem people have with types goes back to a basic failure to understand in-game strategy - something that I see constantly on in-game RMT threads. Point number one - ALL types have a disadvantage against one or some other types. If you leave a type in against something that's SE against it and it gets hit and faints, that doesn't mean the type is bad - it means you used bad strategy and kept the wrong pokemon in. Switching might be a problem in competitive battling, but in-game, it's effortless and virtually risk-free. I can't even count how many times I've seen someone say, for instance, that Grass types are disadvantaged because they don't get attacks that are SE against Flying types. Say what? All that means is that you shouldn't leave your Grass type in against a Flying type, which with the fact that their STAB attack is going to do SE damage anyway, would seem pretty obvious.

    Poisons though are disadvantaged, since they only have one SE attack, against Grasses, and it's not as if being able to hit Grasses SE is anything special anyway. Even with that, they could be okay - after all, Dragons only have one type they're SE against too. But Poisons have two weaknesses, and that's Ground and Psychic - among the most common physical attacking type AND most common special attacking type, and some of the bulkiest (or fastest, in the case of Psychics) among them to boot. Dragons, on the other hand, also have two weaknesses, but that's to Ice - one of the most fragile types out there - and other Dragons, which effectively cancel each other out. So Poisons are left without a good niche - they only hit hard against a type that's relatively weak to begin with, and take hard hits from two of the most powerful types in games. The only thing they have left is a fairly broad range of neutral STAB, but they don't have any powerful attacks to take advantage of that. They don't even have their little niche of being able to poison any more, since everything in the game can learn Toxic.

    They need more bulk, to better withstand the powerful attacks they're weak to. It's not a coincidence that Muk and Weezing were pretty good back before the physical/special split, when it was easy to predict what type of attacks an opponent was going to use and safely put one or the other in. But with their heavily skewed defensive stats and the relative unpredictability of attacks since the split, it's much harder to depend on a pokemon who's only bulky on one side and is notably weak on the other, since it's much easier for an opponent to catch you off guard with an attack on the weak defense. If they had good bulk in both defenses, they'd last better. And they need a few much more powerful attacks - base 150 at least - to take advantage of neutral STAB. I think that would go a long way toward fixing them up, and without altering the type chart at all.

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    Like Steel, Poison is more of a defensive typing and similar to Steel, it doesn't have a wide range offense usage with Steel type moves hitting only Ice and Rock for SE and is resisted by Electric, Fire, Water, Steel.

    But yes, it has occurred to me that some types have advantages over others. They all do. But there's more to Pokemon battling than types. The moves, the trainer's strategy, the Pokemon, abilities, and so many more factors in combination together...that determines how powerful a Pokemon can be, not solely its typing.
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    Poison and Flying types are those types that just have about a billion weaknesses. Some types do have great disadvantages to others.

    Dragon and Steel are strong to almost everything while Poison and Normal are weak to almost everything. I'm not even sure if Normal has a strength...

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    Maybe if Poison's useful resistances didn't overlap so much with those of Flying and Ghost, it would be more useful.

    IMO, I'd make Poison both SE against and resistant to Water.

    Has it ever occured to you that some types have a disadvantage over others?
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    Poison and can be seen as the worst types because it has many disadvantages, but being a good Pokemon doen't depend only on its typing. There are the abilities, base stats and movepools that make up for the type, and they matter a lot. This inequality between types is the interesting of the type matchups. Everybody probably have already noticed that some types have more disadvantages than others. But if all the types had the same number of advantages and disadvantages, it would be no use to analyse the Pokemon type while building up a team.

    * About steel types, they are normally damaged by water and electric, and are weak to fire, ground and fighting. Those five types (fire, water, electric, ground, fighting) are commonly used, so steel types have a hard time often.

    * About poison types, many of them were not made to kill kill kill. Poison types induces poison on foe and let it suffer while Minimize, Confuse Ray, Protect, Double Team is used next. If poison types gain one resistance, just imagine how harder it was going to beat a maximized-evasion poison type Pokemon.

    * About grass types, they compesate their weaknesses with spore and powder moves. Luck is directly related to the strategy of grass Pokemons, and when it is lucky, paralysis or sleep will not allow an enemy to attack it. Once you have few chances to attack a grass foe, what good it has many weak points. However, some grass types don't have any status moves in their movepool, so they depend on other strategies.

    * About rock types, they have more weaknesses than poison. While rock moves have few resists, rock type Pokemon has many weaknesses. Then, if you need rock, it's better to teach a rock move for a Pokemon that isn't rock, so you won't need to worry about a lot of weaknesses.

    * About ice types, their situation is similar (not equal) to the rock types. Most of the ice types were paired with water, and that neutralized their main weakness, fire. A pure ice type has 4 weaknesses and only one resistance. Even poison has more resistances. Plus, you don't need to have an ice type to use ice moves (like said to rock previosly). A pure water type with an ice move will battle sucessfully more than a pure ice type because of resistances and weaknesses.

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    Of course. Look at grass-types they're week against bug, fire, flying, ice and poison types and three of those are common. On top of that grass-types often have poor defences. However the game was never intended to be fair -some pokemon were meant to be stronger than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    Of course. Look at grass-types they're week against bug, fire, flying, ice and poison types and three of those are common. On top of that grass-types often have poor defences. However the game was never intended to be fair -some pokemon were meant to be stronger than others.
    Yeah it's what makes the game interesting, all types play differently and have their niche
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    But yes, it has occurred to me that some types have advantages over others. They all do. But there's more to Pokemon battling than types. The moves, the trainer's strategy, the Pokemon, abilities, and so many more factors in combination together...that determines how powerful a Pokemon can be, not solely its typing.
    Yeah, there is more to pokemon battling than just the huge rock paper scissors of type match-ups. Plus I am not sure if every type would really benefit from having equal strengths and weaknesses. It would kind of make all different types feel a little too samey.

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    There is no such thing as a 'weakest type'. Poison has some things going for it. For example, it tends to be combined with other types, and those types give some poison Pokémon boosts. Even weaker poison-types can wield decent combinations.

    The point is, poison is basically the same as any other type. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, and in the right hands, it can work the same as any other type.
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    Well, they can't change stats or types, that would cause huge trouble.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragontail View Post
    There is no such thing as a 'weakest type'. Poison has some things going for it. For example, it tends to be combined with other types, and those types give some poison Pokémon boosts. Even weaker poison-types can wield decent combinations.

    The point is, poison is basically the same as any other type. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, and in the right hands, it can work the same as any other type.
    I agree with this. Poison has always been a good defensive type(resisting common Grass and Fighting type attacks among others). Even though it's only SE against Grass, it's still a decent offensive coverage type. I'm currently doing a mono-Poison run in LeafGreen and it's going well so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantavanda View Post
    Well, they can't change stats or types, that would cause huge trouble.
    How so? They completed overhauled the game in gen 3 and that didn't 'cause huge trouble.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    How so? They completed overhauled the game in gen 3 and that didn't 'cause huge trouble.'
    Yes, but there was no way to transfer from Gen 1 or 2 to Gen 3. That may have had something to do with their decision. If you don't have to worry about compatibility between games, it likely makes big changes easier to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    How so? They completed overhauled the game in gen 3 and that didn't 'cause huge trouble.'
    They overhauled it because they had to change with technology.

    Now while Game Freak will never rule anything out to improve Pokemon, they aren't going to break compatibility just because some people don't like the type matchup table.
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    You all make valid points. However, I still believe that just because of typing some Pokemon are held back too much or given too much of a boost. Normally, these Pokemon are paired with stats or movesets that balance them out, but imagine if they weren't. Elektross is pure Electric, meaning a Pokemon with one weakness. Its ability causes immunity. This means, Elektross joins the ranks as one of three Pokemon with no SE weaknesses. This Pokemon is paired with stats that cause it to see little use, but its typing and ability alone give it an advantage over many other Pokemon. It's no big deal if Flygon or Claydol have the same ability, but just because of its typing, Elektross takes this ability to a position some could consider overpowered.

    On the opposite end, Charizard has extraordinary potential, but is held back almost completely by its typing, because a Fire/Flying suffers from a 4x weakness to Rock-types, meaning sending it in on Stealth Rocks practically destroys it before it can get a move out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel562 View Post
    You all make valid points. However, I still believe that just because of typing some Pokemon are held back too much or given too much of a boost.
    Except they aren't because a Pokemon isn't simply its sprite and type.

    Normally, these Pokemon are paired with stats or movesets that balance them out, but imagine if they weren't.
    If they weren't, then you wouldn't have Pokemon.

    Elektross is pure Electric, meaning a Pokemon with one weakness. Its ability causes immunity. This means, Elektross joins the ranks as one of three Pokemon with no SE weaknesses. This Pokemon is paired with stats that cause it to see little use, but its typing and ability alone give it an advantage over many other Pokemon.
    But its typing and ability isn't the end all and be all

    On the opposite end, Charizard has extraordinary potential, but is held back almost completely by its typing,
    No it isn't.

    because a Fire/Flying suffers from a 4x weakness to Rock-types, meaning sending it in on Stealth Rocks practically destroys it before it can get a move out.
    This is why most Pokemon battles are conducted with what a Trainer calls a "team". If one Pokemon has a weakness or defect, then the Trainer should take that into account when making a team so one of the other Pokemon can cover that weakness or defect.

    You seem to have this false notion that Pokemon works like rock-paper-scissors based on typing. It doesn't. Pikachu would resist a Electivire's Choice Banded ThunderPunch, but outside of extreme luck, most Pikachus would faint because it is still a CHOICE BANDED THUNDERPUNCH and Pikachu's defenses are paper thin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    You seem to have this false notion that Pokemon works like rock-paper-scissors based on typing.
    I have no such illusion. I'm simply exploring how large of a part types play. And how large that part is varies between situation. When I was playing through Black, my team would have had perfect type coverage if I had chosen Emolga as my last spot. However, several factors other than typing led me to not choose Emolga. I am perfectly conscious of the fact that when abilities, stats, and movepools are factored in, type rarely is significant enough to singlehandedly make or break a Pokemon. I'm attempting to discuss the extremities in this situation where horrible or great typing, possibly paired with the rest of the factors, do end up making or breaking a Pokemon.
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    I always thought that the Normal type was disadvantaged, having no strengths and no resistances and one immunity to Ghost


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    While I am under the impression that certain types have a disadvantage over others (ie. Poison, Grass), I don't think that the damage tables for existing types need to be changed.
    Poison, for example, have resistances to common, powerful types especially Fighting which is invaluable in OU. Try switching in a Tentacruel to sponge a Choiced Terrakion's Close Combat.
    Normal is supposed to be the "neutral" type However, Gamefreak could not give it no weaknesses or resists or it would be unbalanced. Based on what pokemon normally get it, it would make sense why they have a Fighting weakness, a Ghost immunity (both types being immune to each over) and be resisted by Rock and Steel. Normal is still the most versatile type in the metagame due to the almost universal neutralities relating to it and therefore the plethora of offensive and defensive threats coming from it.
    Edit: Leave the modifications to the damage tables for the addition of any new types.
    Last edited by Orithan; 23rd January 2013 at 7:11 AM.

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