Pokemon Adventures volume 43

[Trutown]

The plothole of Cyrus's actions being pointless without the HGSS event exists whichever theory holds true. A farfetched idea would be that the Four Generals' actions in 'luring' Arceus to descend from its dimension had anther mastermind behind again, who ensured that the DPPt trio will be created, so that Cyrus could have something to pull out of afterwards. Obviously, this points towards Saque being possibly involved again. If this is true, one would wonder why Saque did not simply get Cyrus to the Mystri Stage directly, unless of course, her loyalty in him is under question as many suggested. One could even suggest that Saque's main aim is simply destruction, that she gave information on Dialga and Palkia to Cyrus, while giving those of Giratina as well to Charon, to create conflict in between.


Coronis~

So Sird (Saque) is like Vandal Savage in Justice League Doom.

That actually sounds awesome.

[e9310103838]

Someone must have created that distortion world and since Giratina is the master of the world, it should be obvious that Giratina created it before it... 'died'

Or they had been in existence.

When they "die", they continued to exist in a non-entity, until Arceus rebirth them.

[Macromind101]

Okay I have a theory. Unless there is proof in the manga that explicitly says otherwise, there has to be a reason why Dialga and Palkia are hostile towards Giratina and vice-versa. I think what is possible is that in ancient times, the trio fought each other so much and started twisting the world with space-time distorting and anti-matter getting out of hand threatening to throw off the balance between the real world and the Distortion World (remember how there was the space-time distortion in Spear Pillar due to Dialga and Palkia fighting) that Arceus had no choice but to send the trio into a state of non-existence. So they were in Limbo, I guess. How space, time and antimatter managed to exist without them, I have no idea. But the fact that the world managed to maintain those three elements without the trio is actually a fact so there has to be an explanation. And so the trio's recreation was just Arceus bringing them back from Limbo. And there they resume their fight.

And can someone please answer my question? I know it's hinted that Red's Snor and Emerald's Snorlax produced an egg that became Dia's Munchlax but for the other three couples at the end of the Emerald chapter, was it hinted that they produced eggs as well? Is it possible that the Mime Jr. belonging to one of the TRET might be the offspring of the two Mr. Mime? I highly doubt that the Mantyke baby was released into the wild but we only saw one Mantyke in Pokemon Adventures which was a wild one. And did we ever see a Bonsly in Pokemon Adventures?

[Coronis]

Dialga and Palkia were the ones who banished Giratina into the Distortion World in the past. There was no mentioning of Arceus being involved in its banishment.

Several things we know for sure are that:
1) Long ago (probably around the beginning), Dialga and Palkia banished Giratina into the Distortion World after it caused havoc in the real world
2) The Distortion World existed since then or even before that
3) The Giratina created at the Mystri Stage went back into the Distortion World after the events of HGSS
4) There seemed to be one single Giratina present in the Distortion World during the DPPt events

One may suggest that the original Giratina, after being in the Distortion World for some time, transcended into some other realm (if the word 'die' must be avoided), and ceased to exist in the world (both real and Distortion) we know of. During the HGSS events, Arceus brought Giratina into existence again, 'awakening' it from its transcended state, and it once again returned into the Distortion World. If this theory holds true, some years (maybe thousands or millions) later, the current Giratina will transcend / die again, and must be 'recreated' by Arceus. Otherwise, it will stay as a creature in myths, who don't really exist in any known realms anymore. The same should apply to Dialga and Palkia if this is true.

Of course, you can say that this current Giratina is new, and the original one remained in the realm it transcended to. Then again, Giratina is supposed to represent the Distortion World. If it's already gone to some other 'higher' realm, it's basically dead as it shares no link with any dimension we know of anymore, unless it serves another purpose in some other realm.

And to answer the egg question, there were no hints on other eggs, just the Munchlax one.



Coronis~

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Still, the Distortion World is amorphous enough for multiples to exist there, or even for the same to exist in many points at once. Or am I thinking of gameverse plus experimental physics and not Special? That whole "time doesn't flow, space doesn't expand" thing...is that still so in Special?

[lolipiece]

And can someone please answer my question? I know it's hinted that Red's Snor and Emerald's Snorlax produced an egg that became Dia's Munchlax but for the other three couples at the end of the Emerald chapter, was it hinted that they produced eggs as well? Is it possible that the Mime Jr. belonging to one of the TRET might be the offspring of the two Mr. Mime? I highly doubt that the Mantyke baby was released into the wild but we only saw one Mantyke in Pokemon Adventures which was a wild one. And did we ever see a Bonsly in Pokemon Adventures?

No, we saw a Mantyke in the Battle Frontier, too.

[Coronis]

Still, the Distortion World is amorphous enough for multiples to exist there, or even for the same to exist in many points at once. Or am I thinking of gameverse plus experimental physics and not Special? That whole "time doesn't flow, space doesn't expand" thing...is that still so in Special?

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't reject that relatively complicated theory. One may doubt that the writers would create such abstract concepts for Special, but I did recall the writers going into scientific and genetic depth on a Q&A on their site when someone questioned how come Giovanni with blood group O could give birth to Silver whose blood group is AB. They mentioned rhesus and many in depth genetic stuff (although as a medical profession I can say the claim was wrong).

In other words, I wouldn't put it past the writers to depict a world with multi-Distortion Worlds. Then again, these writers we are talking about seem to favour legend-singularity.


Coronis~

[Trutown]

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't reject that relatively complicated theory. One may doubt that the writers would create such abstract concepts for Special, but I did recall the writers going into scientific and genetic depth on a Q&A on their site when someone questioned how come Giovanni with blood group O could give birth to Silver whose blood group is AB. They mentioned rhesus and many in depth genetic stuff (although as a medical profession I can say the claim was wrong).

In other words, I wouldn't put it past the writers to depict a world with multi-Distortion Worlds. Then again, these writers we are talking about seem to favour legend-singularity.


Coronis~

Legend singularity?

[lolipiece]

Legend singularity?

I believe he means the concept of only one of each legend.

Seems to be true as every time we see a legend a second time, it's always the same individual.

[Macromind101]

I still hold on to my theory that Arceus banished the trio into a state of non-existence. If the legendaries "retained" their memories, then they are obviously the same ones that existed in the beginning of time. If Dialga and Palkia banished Giratina into the Distortion World, then who says that it can't reach out and attack them from another realm? (Didn't that actually happen at the end of the DP chapter?) There has to be a way that the trio actually got wiped out from existence that made it necessary for Arceus to resurrect them. I kinda find it hard to believe that they just "died". When was the last time a legendary Pokemon died in the manga? I would think that legends are immortal since Arceus existed since the creation of the world, Mew lived long enough to be the origin of all non-legendary, non-man-made Pokemon's bloodlines, etc. Unless, I guess it's possible that the three managed to kill each other and Arceus just brought them back to life. I guess that's another possible scenario.

[lolipiece]

I still hold on to my theory that Arceus banished the trio into a state of non-existence. If the legendaries "retained" their memories, then they are obviously the same ones that existed in the beginning of time. If Dialga and Palkia banished Giratina into the Distortion World, then who says that it can't reach out and attack them from another realm? (Didn't that actually happen at the end of the DP chapter?) There has to be a way that the trio actually got wiped out from existence that made it necessary for Arceus to resurrect them. I kinda find it hard to believe that they just "died". When was the last time a legendary Pokemon died in the manga? I would think that legends are immortal since Arceus existed since the creation of the world, Mew lived long enough to be the origin of all non-legendary, non-man-made Pokemon's bloodlines, etc. Unless, I guess it's possible that the three managed to kill each other and Arceus just brought them back to life. I guess that's another possible scenario.

Uh, the story? It's explicitly stated that Giratina was only able to get out because Dialga and Palkia went crazy on Spear Pillar. Otherwise, it's stuck there.

That's why it grabbed them, so that once they came to their senses, they wouldn't be able to keep it stuck there.

[Macromind101]

Uh, the story? It's explicitly stated that Giratina was only able to get out because Dialga and Palkia went crazy on Spear Pillar. Otherwise, it's stuck there.

That's why it grabbed them, so that once they came to their senses, they wouldn't be able to keep it stuck there.

So then how is Giratina able to freely go back into the Distortion World from the real world? Is it only a one-way entrance?

[lolipiece]

So then how is Giratina able to freely go back into the Distortion World from the real world? Is it only a one-way entrance?

Because Dialga and Palkia let it?

I don't think they can open it, only keep it closed.

[Macromind101]

Because Dialga and Palkia let it?

I don't think they can open it, only keep it closed.

No I'm pretty sure Giratina can open a portal to the Distortion World on its own free will. It is Giratina's own realm so what kind of guardian would it be if it can't even go back into it when it leaves? And it looked pretty clear in the Platinum chapter that Giratina was able to go back into the Distortion World because it gave up.

Oh and one more thing, Coronis. When Palmer said he was moving his facility to Sinnoh, was that indicating that the Battle Frontier was originally in Johto like in the games? So the whole facility was moving to Sinnoh? That would make sense if Kusaka was trying to showcase the Generation IV Battle Frontier in both Sinnoh and Johto. Does that make it possible that the Battle Tower that was in construction in the GSC chapter eventually became Palmer's facility in Johto? I wouldn't be surprised since that was sort of the case in the games.

[Porygandrew]

Were there any noticeable changes in the beginning volumes for the BW series?

[Coronis]

All we know is that during HGSS, Palmer is a Frontier Brain at the Battle Frontier of Johto. If the manga sticked to the games, then yes, the tower which was under construction in GSC was likely the Battle Tower that Palmer was heading. He did not mention any of the other Brains (but since he did not simply refer to the Battle Tower, I assume there is more than just the Battle Tower at that location. He mentioned about returning Regigigas to Snowpoint, but did not specifically said he would be moving back to Sinnoh himself actually, so the Sinnoh Frontier could have 'moved' back from Johto anytime from end of HGSS to Platinum.

The only change in the BW chapters was the extra N scene at the end of the Hiker Andy chapter.



Coronis~

[e9310103838]

I did not find the reason why Giratina can open the passage itself later.

But I noticed volume 39 later mentioned Giratina is the "only" being in the Distortion World, so......

[e9310103838]

Yes but nobody else.

I looked at, Looker didn't deliberately not arrest Cyrus.

Because they left before Looker arrival, Looker had to first arrest Charon.

[Weedy Spyze]

Reading over Coronis' summary, I can't say I'm anything but disappointed by the ending of HGSS. I didn't expect too much anyway, but everything seems to have been resolved in some big convuleted mess just for the sake of having a pointless "plot twist" thrown in at the end of things. Not unlike the ending of the original GSC story arc.

Here are certain replies to the six-page discussion, complete with quote tags that will probably be messed up:

1) The Dialga, Palkia and Giratina created here at the Mystri Stage are the same ones that appeared in the DPPt series. Pryce explained that Dialga and Palkia are already hostile towards Giratina because they retained their 'memories' from the ancient past. This suggests that this trio were not exactly created from scratch, but more like they existed in the past during the creation of the world, vanished/disappeared/died-off somehow, and Arceus is just bringing them back to life, 'resurrecting' them from their ancient selves as spoken in the myths.

2) Lance explained that Arceus actually wasn't really forced by Archer to do anything. Rather, it followed its own will all along. When it descended from its realm, it carried the conflicting attitude of eliminating humans, yet keeping a small hope for humans as well. It created the DPPt trio to start destroying the world.

4) When Pryce was still in the voids of time, he called out for help and Lance happened to be the one who responded to him. Pryce told him all about the future and thus Lance sent his holograph message to Oak requesting help. Somehow, on the evening Pryce returned to the real world at the Ilex Forest, Giovanni was there, because he was seeking Celebi too to cure his illness (after having heard of the Pokeathlon tale about Celebi being the mythical Pokemon who could heal diseases). Giovanni was hostile towards Pryce at the beginning, actually attacking him so bad that he nearly killed him. But Lance appeared and convinced Giovanni to work with them to stop the crisis which would destroy the world first (which destruction will include Silver).

7) While everyone was fighting at the Sinjoh Ruins, Celebi is actually finding the herbs and meds to cure Giovanni with the help of Gold's Pichu (don't ask me how, maybe through Oak?).

8) Giovanni accepts this, and wants him to become stronger under Lance and Pryce, his two former teachers, and come back to challenge him some day.

11) It is revealed that Proteinman Omega was actually the creation of the Goldenrod Radio Director, basing his character on Red's Pokemon. Silver is somehow addicted to it.

13) Finally, with all that said, HGSS happens before the DPPt series. There's no definite time indication, but it says that 'Time has passed and the stage has shifted', which indicated it may even be years. Long ago, when DP was first serialized in the magazines, it mentioned about Rowan returning to Sinnoh after 4 years of absence (alluding to his visit to Oak in Kanto/Johto for the Pokedexes). This was changed to 'some time' in the manga, but it seems that this 4 year time line between Emerald and DP may be true afterall. So Emerald -> 3 years -> HGSS -> 1 year -> DP? This puts Gold, Silver and Crys at 17, Red, Green, Blu at 20, Yellow at 18. And if the time lapse between BW and Platinum is a few years more, we do have adult Dex Holders by the time BW2 comes around. And for Saque, she's still on the run in that case (since Platinum is latest chapter that involves her, despite just a mention). And Mewtwo spent 4 years chasing after her not knowing that the Dex Holders have been restored? Poor Mewtwo.

1) Well that's kinda dumb. I guess we can just throw all of Sinnoh's mythos in the trash then, if their legendary Pokemon aren't even a damn year old in reality. Granted I can't remember much about the manga's interpretation of this, but whatever. *reads more* Wait...they existed before, but they were created now? Oh screw it, none of this makes sense anyway.

2) Why does Lance know this? Oh wait, magical Viridian Forest powers, I forgot. Someone still needs to explain to me why the Virdian Forest of all places has these magical powers to give out to these "special" children. Still, Arceus is the god of Pokemon. Apparently the Viridian Forest allows you to read the minds of gods. Seems kinda troubling imo.

4) I knew the logic behind Pryce's return would be dumb, so I'm not even gonna ***** about this. Still, better than the jack-all "explanation" of Giovanni being there. "Oh, I'm just conveniently out on a stroll." Literally hilarious.

7) Everyone else is just conveniently around with no explanation, so Gold's Pichu shouldn't be any different I guess.

8) So Silver's gonna be all buddy-buddy with Pryce now? Good to know that childhood trauma can be solved with a slap on the wrist. Let's be buddies now!

11) Kinda funny, I'll never know the decision behind making the Director such an "important" character but I can totes see Silver being addicted to the show.

13) I actually like this. I don't know much sense it makes in the grand scheme of things, but at least we have some kind of consistency going on now with the Gen IV timeline. Poor Mewtwo indeed, he just completely disappeared with no explanation the second he stopped being useful to the plot.

May I also say that the writers are almost making Celebi the solution and link to nearly every big legendary clash now. It was involved in the Ho-oh and Lugia plot. It stopped Kyogre and Groudon. It stopped Dialga/Palkia/Giratina too. Guess being able to travel freely through time makes it the 'guardian' of everything, forseeing everything and trying to stop them... Luckily Reshiram and Zekrom's battle are unlikely world-threatening, but then maybe Kyurem will freeze the entire world? I don't know.

Celebi's been the resident Deus Ex Machina for a while now actually, he just took a break during Emerald to let Jirachi have the spotlight for a bit.

That whole resurrecting the DPPt trio makes no sense, since the Pokedex stated that with every breath Palkia takes space becomes more stable and that time flows with every heartbeat of Dialga. How was it possible for time to flow if Dialga was death? Isn't time supposed to be frozen is Dialga ceases to exist? If Giratina was imprisoned in the distortion world how did it die? from loneliness?

I feel like pretending that the whole HGSS fiasco never happened.

It was just something ruined so the manga could have some kind of "consistency," it really does make no sense when you stop to think about. Kinda sends all of Sinnoh's mythos to hell as well as I mentioned.

Me too, it feels like it was more trouble than it was worth to be honest.

So, in PokeSpe, Sinnoh and Johto are not geographically close to one another and are just simply linked by this inter-dimensional crap? Or are they still close to each other and this dimensional area is there anyways?

"Silver, I want you to study under the supervision of the guy that kidnapped you and a bunch of other kids!"
...Smooth one, Giovanni.

I know I'm getting a lot of my facts wrong in this post, but I really couldn't give a flying **** at this point. In my opinion, the art was good but the writing wasn't. I know Kusaka can do better than this.

Sure, why not? Everything can be explained with you friendly inter-dimensional wormhole!

Like I said, everything gets solved with the slap on the wrist in PokeSpecial world. Giovanni is a moron to say the least, but then again he's a moron in the games as well so at least there's consistency.

Yeah, I can't really remember all the "plot points" either, so maybe all of this does make some kind of sense...somehow. As I said at the beginning, I feel like everything was made overly convulated to make something "epic," but it failed majorly. Kinda like how the original GSC arc ended.

This entire volume was a continuity nightmare.

If Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina have been resurrected by Arceus, how have the forces of time, space, and anti-matter held themselves together? How did Team Galactic know that the time they tried to take control of Dialga and Palkia was right after they were brought back from the dead? What was Sird using Archie for? What was the point of the Emerald chapter?

Why does Arceus want to destroy all humans? How did puny meatbags piss off a god? Why does it need the creation trio to destroy the world? Why are they beefed up to be more of a threat than they really are? What is the point of the Team Rocket Generals?

How did Lance rescue Pryce from the time stream? Why did he do it? Why are they so willing to believe Pryce when he is a well known liar and terrorist?

How does one kid's Pokemon evolving change Arceus' mind? Why should he give up when he has plenty of evidence to justify his actions based on the Team Rocket Generals alone? What was the point of the Team Rocket Generals?

Why does Giovanni let him do this? Why would Giovanni want Silver to train under the man who kidnapped him? Why would he want Silver to challenge him sometime in the future anyway? If Giovanni is still a cold hearted criminal, why does he not shoot Silver? What was the point of the FRLG chapter?

How did the fourth most popular character not get a better cameo? Why were none of the first four Pokedex Holders called when the threat was supposed to be this big and Team Rocket was rumored to be involved? If this is their last chapter, why did the first four not appear? How does Petrel know that Lance is scared of Yellow? How does Petrel know Yellow? Why is Lance scared of her if she is the reason that he supposedly repented?

What has Team Galactic been doing in all that time? Was Cyrus in the corner picking his nose and shooting spit wads at Jupiter for all that time? How come neither Sird nor Mewtwo have heard that the Seniors where released from the petrification in four years? Wasn't that on national television? What was the point of the Emerald chapter?

This, pretty much.

Well to be honest with you, if this whole episode reflects even more poorly on Emerald I'd be kinda pleased by that, lmfao.

I'm just kinda more bugged by the fact that Lance can apparently read the mind of a GOD. Arceus' role was so diminished here, Celebi pretty much stole his thunder.

THIS. You already ruined Pryce's character years ago, manga, don't think you can go and fix things so easily!

I don't even remember who the Team Rocket Generals are, the HGSS admins right? I can't remember what they were there for so I can't even be annoyed by this.

Lol @ 'if Giovanni is still a cold-hearted criminal, why does he not shoot Silver?' That made me laugh.

Yellow's the fourth most popular character? Ew, she's not even a very good character. Mary Sue of epic proportions. Red could've appeared because he's always welcome, but Blue and Green could be killed off in a random fiery explosion for all I care. I've never really cared for those two characters.

Pretty much all of this, as said if this all reflects poorly on Emerald? I'm all for that.

This whole thing has made me realize something. While it looks like a manga, Pokemon Adventures is really just a super hero comic book. Villains aren't killed off so that they can appear later, everything goes back to the status quo at the end (no matter how bad things got), and people are automatically forgiven no matter how bad their crimes were (Avengers #200 anyone?).

There are many people who know about Giovanni's involvement in Team Rocket. They've just worked for him in the past and respect him, or they are scared of him. The Dex Holders are the only exception to this and they just don't do it for some unexplained reason.

Well, it is written for kids after all. You can't really expect to see some big justice system to show up in Pokemon. Ash has had what, fifteen years to press charges against Jessie and James for stalking him and trying to steal his electric rodent? Whatever. It's Pokemon.

I just skipped over most of the other posts but it was kinda funny to me how so many people are on the pro-team for letting Pryce get away with his crimes and to forgive and forget "because it happened long ago." Seriously some kind of warped logic there, but what the hell it's a manga. Can't really expect too much real-life logic when it comes to this.

If I sound like an idiot in most of this post I apologize, I can't really bring myself to care/remember most of the crap that's happened previously in this chapter. I am glad to see that many people besides me were put off by this sloppy ending, though.

[e9310103838]

13) I actually like this. I don't know much sense it makes in the grand scheme of things, but at least we have some kind of consistency going on now with the Gen IV timeline. Poor Mewtwo indeed, he just completely disappeared with no explanation the second he stopped being useful to the plot.

You forgot Mewtwo can learn the new move in 5th generation......