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Thread: Is evolution necessary?

  1. #1
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    Default Is evolution necessary?

    My thread about Charizard blew up into this conversation about evolution proving strength in the anime. I made a new thread for that conversation. So what are your views? Should Ash evolve all of his weaker Pokemon? Are they strong on their own? What role does marketing play in all of this?



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    Charizard evolved because Charizard is one of those very few fully evolved marketable Pokemon.

    But yeah, the rule is: if it's marketable, it won't evolve.

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    well in bw there trying to make another squirtle and bulbasaur and that's just not possible squirtle and bulbasaur have 20 years worth development backing them up they have no reason to evolve but ash new pokemon need to in order for us to relay take them seriously maybe not evolve to there fullest form but just one more evolve Pokemon would help but not a fully form fire starter he already has two.

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    This would fit better in the normal Anime Discussion, since its not really a spoiler-filled thread.

    My answer? No it isn't necessary, but it does make things a bit cooler and more interesting to watch.. Unless we're talking about Oshawott, because the final evolution is absolutely terrible and therefore it should remain as an Oshawott..

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    A Pokemon can still obtain enough development without the need to evolve. To me it isn't unnecessary but at the same time it can be a bit redundant.


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    If pokemon was not so hell bent on cute and marketing then yes

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    The anime concentrates more on the small and cute Pokemon rather than the cool-looking evolutions that we adore in the games.

    Just look at Samurott, it's not the best looking final evo out there, but a lot of people sure as hell love it's design, but it only has 3 appearances in the anime, the movie, it's debut, and the Unova League battle. That is extremely depressing.

    But then we got a "cute" little Axew that doesn't evolve, somehow knows super crazy strong Dragon-type attacks, could destroy an entire city just by chasing after a balloon, and yet it's appeared more just because it's cute and marketable.

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    Evolution's practically a Deus ex Machina at this point.
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    Evolution isn't exactly necessary, but when a Pokemon grows stale (like Snivy), you either need to induce an evolution or teach the Pokemon a new move. When neither occurs, development is non-existent
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    Is evolution necessary? No....*sigh* whatever.

    But are ALL the reasons to not evolve a Pokémon legitimate? No. Some are some aren't.

    Pikachu's reason- It doesn't want to evolve to get stronger. That's such a BS excuse, I get that there is a time to prove one's self as is and not, but I think this message was horribly done. Because it feels like an insult to those who did evolve. Oh you had to evolve to get stronger, whoop de doo, you weak sauce creature. Maybe if the message was.....actually there's no right way of doing because in some way it'll always insult those who didn't evolve.

    Bulbasaur's Reason- It wasn't ready. That's fine, but the problem seems to be that Bulbasaur refused to evolve, because was Ash was a "jerk" (that's way too soft a word) and Bulbasaur didn't like Ash's attitude. I can see how Ash's happy attitude would be insulting. "NO, I don't want a Bulbasaur, give me Ivysaur" I can see why Bulbasaur evolved.

    Piplup's reason- I have no idea what the hell Piplup's reason was (because I can't trust either the dub reason or what people say is the Japanese reason) but it was such a B.S. move to pull in the same series as Pikachu refusing to evolve. Granted there was no right way to do it but still. Maybe it should've been Piplup who refused to evolve PRIOR to the episode of Pikachu refusing to evolve.

    Any other reason- I just don't think there really is any reason for a Pokémon to remain unevolved, that's legitimate. Maybe size, weight and appearance could be used, but that's such a shallow reason to not evolve, I'm looking at you "ShinyCharyzard."

    Especially for those who don't evolve because their forced to stay unevolved by the writers.

    I can agree, that unevolved Pokémon can be strong, but I still believe their evolved form will always be superior in strength (if not speed).

    And before you argue: I mean Ash's Raichu (for example) will always be stronger than Ash's Pikachu.

    I don't give a rat's rear end about Lt. Surge's Raichu, or Sho's Raichu, or whoever else has a Raichu that could lose to Ash's Pikachu.

    And also what Joltik-Kid said, evolution, and new moves are the only ways you can develop a stagnant Pokémon late in the story, without resorting to fake development. If a Pokémon can't evolve, then fake development is fine. But for unevolved Pokémon, any serious character flaws that need to be overcome needs to occur early in the story (depending on the circumstances) OR it looks like fake development.

    Oh no suddenly Snivy has a fear of fire? Oh no Oshawott is somehow suddenly kicking butt? Oh no....okay forget that last one. But whatever.
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    No I don't think it's necessary, but it comes down to preferences really. Some like the unevolved forms more than the evolved ones and vice versa. I believe it's much different in the anime than it is in the games, you can't just say x should evolve because it's strong and it's the only way to get stronger. It doesn't work like that on the show, we've seen countless times that the Pokemon has to want it. Pikachu remains one of the biggest examples that evolution isn't always necessary and it's what separates the show from the games. Unlike the games the Pokemon in the anime world have their own feelings on the matter and that's why they evolve or don't.

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    I feel that the anime has always strayed from the game as far as the strength of evolution. It's portrayed as powerful, but they have always given smaller un-evolved Pokemon the power to go toe-to-toe with opponents they normally wouldn't stand a chance against. In that light, I feel that evolution is not necessary. However, if they are going to go with keeping un-evolved Pokemon on Ash's team, they need to go about it better. Develop them more, give us a reason for believing they can take on any foe. Oshawott should not be getting pwned every other episode and being a clown during the others. Same goes for any Pokemon suffering a similar fate. These basic level Pokemon need to feel powerful. Otherwise, there's no point.
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    It has been well established in the series that evolution is not a definite gauge of strength. Paul's Azumarill failed pathetically against Roark's Geodude while Elekid dominated the battle. Paul often talked about some Pokemon having more potential to improve than others, so obviously even an evolved pokemon like Azumarill can still be weaker than most basic Pokemon.

    Now having said that, outside of some initial problems like with Charizard, Grotle, and Zweilious, there doesn't seem to be any downside to evolving in terms of overall strength.

    So I think the general rule should be that every Pokemon owned by any consistently battling main character/rival should fully evolve by the end. These would be my general rules for exceptions.

    1) Pokemon who, for an established reason, aren't going to evolve, i.e. Ash's Pikachu and Tyson's Meowth

    2) Pokemon who, in-universe, are believably inexperienced enough where it makes sense that they haven't evolved, i.e. Ash's Scraggy

    3) It's established that it will take a very long time for them to evolve, mostly for Dragon types, i.e. Ash's Gible and Iris's Axew

    4) It can sometimes get a pass if it has been clearly established that the Pokemon is just as strong if not stronger than most evolved Pokemon and doesn't really need to evolve to compete with top Pokemon. Ash's Buizel, Snivy, and perhaps Corphish fall into this category.

    I don't there should be more than one Pokemon in this category on someone's team or it ceases to be special.

    Outside of that, I think most Pokemon should evolve. Ash's final DP team only had Pikachu, Buizel, and Gible unevolved. Gible was only recently caught and was a slow-evolving dragon type, so it makes sense it wouldn't have evolved. So Buizel was pretty much the only one who didn't have a definite reason it hadn't evolved, and if it's just the one I can let it slide.
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    Eh, I wouldn't include Snivy in that if I'm honest.. Sure she's got some power behind her and her stamina isn't actually that bad either, but its been proven on several occasions that her size/weight lets her down. Especially when it comes to using Vine Whip.

    That poor girl DOES need evolution, just so that she's got the size and weight to match her attack power..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyCharyZard View Post
    Eh, I wouldn't include Snivy in that if I'm honest.. Sure she's got some power behind her and her stamina isn't actually that bad either, but its been proven on several occasions that her size/weight lets her down. Especially when it comes to using Vine Whip.

    That poor girl DOES need evolution, just so that she's got the size and weight to match her attack power..
    The thing with Snivy is that her evolution is actually more popular then she is. So I honestly don't know what is holding her back.
    Last edited by J Ken; 27th January 2013 at 3:58 AM.

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    Only of said pokemon do not have hands/claws/nubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    The thing with Snivy is that her evolution is actually more popular then she is. So I honestly don't know what is holding her back.
    Servine or Serperior? Because this is honestly the first time I've ever heard of this.

    As for the main question: Of course it's not necessary. Many of the main cast's Pokemon have been in their base form throughout the history of the anime. It's only recently (the BW era) that I've really seen complaints about certain Pokemon remaining un-evolved, which honestly has me baffled. I personally dislike how the anime has been handled lately, but I get the feeling that those who are upset just because some of the Pokemon don't evolve, have even more issues with the anime than I do. It's quite strange to be in this position. :x

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    Why did I get the feeling that upon coming in here, Snivy and Oshawott as usual would be mentioned--;

    You'd think those are the only two pokemon who matter these days...

    If a pokemon has a story or reason that drives it towards evolving or not wanting to evolve then it's fine.

    A pokemon evolving for no reason at all however, especially if it's not going to offer anything of value is not fine.
    Last edited by Almighty Zard; 27th January 2013 at 4:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Servine or Serperior? Because this is honestly the first time I've ever heard of this.

    As for the main question: Of course it's not necessary. Many of the main cast's Pokemon have been in their base form throughout the history of the anime. It's only recently (the BW era) that I've really seen complaints about certain Pokemon remaining un-evolved, which honestly has me baffled. I personally dislike how the anime has been handled lately, but I get the feeling that those who are upset just because some of the Pokemon don't evolve, have even more issues with the anime than I do. It's quite strange to be in this position. :x
    We thought after Sinnoh the writers were over the base starter thing. You can't deny that if you just judge from the region team pokemon and nothing else pretty much everyone would say that team has the greatest chance of winning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Zard View Post
    Why did I get the feeling that upon coming in here, Snivy and Oshawott as usual would be mentioned--;

    You'd think those are the only two pokemon who matter these days...

    If a pokemon has a story or reason that drives it towards evolving or not wanting to evolve then it's fine.

    A pokemon evolving for no reason at all however, especially if it's not going to offer anything of value is not fine.
    Well those are the big two who have no real in-universe reason to have not evolved at this point and it's pretty glaring that they haven't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N... View Post
    My thread about Charizard blew up into this conversation about evolution proving strength in the anime. I made a new thread for that conversation. So what are your views? Should Ash evolve all of his weaker Pokemon? Are they strong on their own? What role does marketing play in all of this?
    The only big complaint that I have with evolution is that whenever it does occur in favor of Ash, it is typically contrived with little effort to make it seem natural. Under the typical Ash circumstances, his Pokemon almost always evolve when they're in a corner in an important battle such as a rival battle, Gym Battle, and certain Team Rocket battles. Whenever this does happen, the tables have a habit of turning very quickly and the newly evolved Pokemon finishes the current opponent off with a new move they pulled out of their arse. After that specific battle, however, the newly evolved Pokemon's win/loss record or power levels become sporadic at best and it's hard to tell whether or not they really are improving (Torterra is a prime example of this). We could blame Ash for the sporadic win/loss records, but the point or this thread is to see if evolution needs to happen to show the POKEMON'S growth, and not the trainer's.

    Overall, I would prefer for evolutions to have more of a Zatch Bell presence and formula. They can happen to show physical proof that the Pokemon has gotten physically stronger, but that potential should only be hidden until the Pokemon shows an acceptable level of EMOTIONAL GROWTH and trainer/Pokemon synergy to accompany that power. Ash's Pokemon are okay as they are right now, but they have to show progress and be seriously pushed, otherwise, they'll stagnate even more than they already have. Marketing also has a negative impact on Ash's team since the people behind them are clingy. The people behind the Pokemon marketing are a lot like typical PO players in that they'll stay with one successful team for as long as possible until they run into the one person that is anti-teaming and anti-styling them. It's the big reason why Piplup's Dawn's cameo was such a bust (You see the blood red writing on the wall! You know as well as everyone else that the executives wanted an excuse to bring Piplup back!).

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    Personally, I've never liked the fact that the main cast rarely evolves their pokemon...In Indigo, Ash had squirtle and bulbasaur...I understand that bulba didn't want to evolve and all but squirtle should have at least evolved into a wartortle...then there would be bulbasaur, wartortle and charizard...In Johto, it was WORSE...Why didn't cyndaquil evolve earlier? I really wanted to see Ash with typhlosion considering that charizard left...but of course only chikorita evolved and then only once...and totodile, he kinda flopped and was never really seen again....Johto was just not that great...For hoenn, it was better since all of Ash's pokemon ended up evolving...I was particularly happy that Ash got a sceptile...but not so much that marshtomp didn't evolve...Sinnoh by far was my favorite considering that not only chimchar evolved all the way, but turtwig did ALSO...that surprised me...The only thing was that bousel didn't evolve and that kinda annoyed me since I don't really like buizels face as opposed to floatzel's but that's OK since both infernape and staraptor were awesome...As for BW, I think it's ok so far...but I DO think that boldore and palpitoad should evolve...they just never had anything extremely exciting happen to them and evolution would do the trick very nicely to end their story of being neglected background pokemon...as for snivy, I WoULD LOVE IT if she evolved but to me, it's not necessary, I love snivy as she is but a serperior would be so awesome as well....

    I see evolution as development. It never really has anything to do with power, in my opinion, but rather that the evolution just makes it seem that the anime is actually going somewhere...I mean the point of pokemon is to grow with your pokemon and unlock each other's potentials...that usually involves evolving...if that doesn't happen, then you just constantly see the same pokemon over and over again and it gets kinda bland...
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    I think evolution is important but not a necessity. If it was necessary, they would evolve, it it wasn't then they won't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokeMaster366 View Post
    The only big complaint that I have with evolution is that whenever it does occur in favor of Ash, it is typically contrived with little effort to make it seem natural. Under the typical Ash circumstances, his Pokemon almost always evolve when they're in a corner in an important battle such as a rival battle, Gym Battle, and certain Team Rocket battles. Whenever this does happen, the tables have a habit of turning very quickly and the newly evolved Pokemon finishes the current opponent off with a new move they pulled out of their arse. After that specific battle, however, the newly evolved Pokemon's win/loss record or power levels become sporadic at best and it's hard to tell whether or not they really are improving (Torterra is a prime example of this).
    In Sinnoh whenever a pokemon of Ash's evolved, it got it's butt kicked and didn't win it's first non TR conflict fight, Staravia going to Staraptor being the only exception and possibly Gliscor since it managed a draw against Barry's Roserade, but it still didn't win.

    This generation however it does seem like that by evolving the pokemon do back it up and kick butt in thier first fights after evolving so i'll give you that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVD_fan View Post
    Well those are the big two who have no real in-universe reason to have not evolved at this point and it's pretty glaring that they haven't.
    Your post is almost an exact copy of the one I quoted in the Oshawott thread. But just to reiterate, since when have the writers needed to give a reason for Pokemon not evolving? How easily we forget all the other Pokemon Ash owns like Buizel and Corphish that never evolved and had no "in-universe" reason not to evolve. I don't understand why this is suddenly an issue, nor do I think that it's "glaring" that Snivy and Oshawott haven't evolved. Do you think the majority of kids really care? All the Snivy and Oshawott merchandise that is sold every single day should be enough confirmation that they don't stress over trivial things like evolutions.

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