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Thread: BWS2EN-8 - Charizard [FIRST POST UPDATED 2/7]

  1. #2526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Anyway, am I the only one who's disappointed with the inconsistencies in the flashbacks? First there was that small inconsistency in the scene where Charizard was looking at the sunrise, but now there's a huge one in the scene where Charmander was caught. Like, why couldn't they just update the animation instead of retconning certain things?
    I didn't understand what you mean. They are using shots from older episodes. You want them to made up new scenes?
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  2. #2527

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    None of the shots are retconned, the story is still the same the scenes have simply been re-animated with slightly different movements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IcySealeo View Post
    I didn't understand what you mean. They are using shots from older episodes. You want them to made up new scenes?
    What, no. I'm saying the exact opposite; that they should have re-animated the scenes, but left the original movements intact. Like the Charmander scene which originally featured a side view of Charmander leaping forward into Ash's Poke Ball and being enveloped by the red light from the Poke Ball, which has been changed to show Charmander jumping high into the sky and touching the Poke Ball before going into it. It's basically been redone, which somewhat ruins the integrity of the original scene in my opinion. It's not consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    None of the shots are retconned, the story is still the same the scenes have simply been re-animated with slightly different movements.
    If scenes were redone to feature different movements, then they aren't exactly the same. Maybe retcon is the wrong word to use, but now we have two conflicting scenes of how Charmander was caught and I'm wondering which one is meant to be canon and which one isn't. :x
    Last edited by Lorde; 3rd March 2013 at 7:35 PM.

  4. #2529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    What, no. I'm saying the exact opposite; that they should have re-animated the scenes, but left the original movements intact. Like the Charmander scene which originally featured a side view of Charmander leaping forward into Ash's Poke Ball and being enveloped by the red light from the Poke Ball, which has been changed to show Charmander jumping high into the sky and touching the Poke Ball before going into it. It's basically been redone, which somewhat ruins the integrity of the original scene in my opinion.
    After seeing the preview I got what you were saying and I totally agree with you. They should have just re animate it. Charmander jumping to the Pokeball ruined a bit this moment.
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  5. #2530

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    If scenes were redone to feature different movements, then they aren't exactly the same.
    I know the scenes arn't the same, but they're only minor changes that don't effect the canon of the show.

    Maybe retcon is the wrong word to use, but now we have two conflicting scenes of how Charmander was caught and I'm wondering which one is meant to be canon and which one isn't. :x
    That's all i was getting at really, retcon isn't the right word that's all.

    I'd go ahead and say that the latest one is the canon scene now, since Ash's eyes are edited to his BW self. If you didn't count the latest scene as canon, you'd may as well completely disregard BW as being canon too.

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    I wonder how iris and cilan will react to ash going through all that in less than a year

  7. #2532

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    I wonder how iris and cilan will react to ash going through all that in less than a year
    The same way we have, accept it and move on.

  8. #2533
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    I wonder how iris and cilan will react to ash going through all that in less than a year
    Meh, I doubt the writers will give importance to that detail. They'll probably say vague things like "some time ago" or similar.
    Last edited by Cresselia92; 3rd March 2013 at 8:18 PM.
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  9. #2534
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    You can't say that one version is canon and the other isn't just because of the difference in animation. The same exact thing happened. It doesn't matter what Ash's eyes look like, where Charmander's tail is, or that the shot of it going into a Pokéball is in a different angle. Does this mean Ash wore his OS clothes while fighing Noland?

    One thing I noticed is BW drew Ash and Brock a lot thinner. Like in the OS they were wider/broader




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  10. #2535
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    That episode was just ridiculous, one ice beam took out a fire type for an entire night. Where was that convinient achilles heel when Charizard faced articuno?!
    Because Charizard got overpowered after it left Ash in Johto.

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  11. #2536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    I'm surprised we haven't had any flashbacks of re-designs sooner than this really, wonder what made them wait until Charizard? Especially since there have been opportunities. I guess they just wanted to wait until an old Pokemon returned.

    Pikachu's background hasn't been explained in a while, and it kind of is important to know since Iris and Cilan both don't know how they met so i'm definetly surprised that never got touched upon in the first half of BW.
    They have done other "flashbacks" so to speak. As was stated the Gathering the Gang of Four, plus Butterfree in DP. Oh and I guess Jasmine in DP as well, showed a clip of Ash's battle with her.

    But I agree this one is the most in depth, and I'm guessing because the entire episode focuses on Charizard and it's return. Like if say Pidgeot/Butterfree/Primeape were to return, I'd kinda expect something similar. They're Pokemon that haven't been seen in a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Anyway, am I the only one who's disappointed with the inconsistencies in the flashbacks? First there was that small inconsistency in the scene where Charizard was looking at the sunrise, but now there's a huge one in the scene where Charmander was caught. Like, why couldn't they just update the animation instead of retconning certain things?
    And no, I don't think a lot of people are disappointed in an "inconsistency", not sure you could really call it that, since it's not even a big deal. The message was the same, Charmander wanted to travel with Ash. And the original scene didn't make sense anyway, with the Pokeball just opening on it's own, that literally can't happen without it touching the Pokemon first. So in a way, the new clip kinda corrects that problem from the original. It doesn't ruin anything. And like someone else said, the Gathering the Gang of Four had an even bigger inconsistency. It showed Ash and Charizard battling Articuno, with Ash still in his OS outfit, despite it only happening some 50 or so episodes prior.

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    aren't flashbacks typically just Ash speaking rather than the characters? I think he would just talk about how he met Charizard when he was a stray Charmander being abandoned by Damien. I wouldn't worry about the voices; secondly, the BW animation layer on top of the OS animation looks smooth compared to the original. I think the tail addition wasn't like that in the original.

  13. #2538

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    They have done other "flashbacks" so to speak. As was stated the Gathering the Gang of Four, plus Butterfree in DP. Oh and I guess Jasmine in DP as well, showed a clip of Ash's battle with her.

    But I agree this one is the most in depth, and I'm guessing because the entire episode focuses on Charizard and it's return. Like if say Pidgeot/Butterfree/Primeape were to return, I'd kinda expect something similar. They're Pokemon that haven't been seen in a while.
    I meant flashbacks in BW, since BW is the most noticeable re-design of the anime.

    I know we've had flashbacks in other sagas infact i posted an image of one in AG a page back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shneak View Post
    Because Charizard got overpowered after it left Ash in Johto.
    You would still think if a poliwrath could do so much damage...a legendary that was shown to be able to destroy the world in M2 could do more damage.

  15. #2540
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    im glad for the flashbacks
    but i do wish the original trio to reuinte and travel together rather then new people each time :/

    yay for charizard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    I meant flashbacks in BW, since BW is the most noticeable re-design of the anime.

    I know we've had flashbacks in other sagas infact i posted an image of one in AG a page back.
    Uh sorry? Didn't realize that's what you meant, it was unclear. AG and DP were still redesigns too, so that's why I mentioned them.

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  17. #2542

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    Uh sorry? Didn't realize that's what you meant, it was unclear.
    I wasn't annoyed if that's what you thought, haha.

    AG and DP were still redesigns too, so that's why I mentioned them.
    Hmm, to be honest I don't think they were besides the obvious outfit changes. Everything still looked the same aside from what characters were wearing.

    In BW, every character looks different than previous sagas (aside from Cynthia and Dawn), most Pokemon look different compared to past anime appearances too.

    That's just my opinion however, but i'd be surprised if people argue that it isn't true.

  18. #2543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    Hmm, to be honest I don't think they were besides the obvious outfit changes. Everything still looked the same aside from what characters were wearing.

    In BW, every character looks different than previous sagas (aside from Cynthia and Dawn), most Pokemon look different compared to past anime appearances too.

    That's just my opinion however, but i'd be surprised if people argue that it isn't true.
    Well yes I disagree, I saw the Butterfree and Jasmine things in DP and they looked pretty different from the original. Not because of the outfits, but it looked sleeker and art styles changed drastically between the regions.

    And Cynthia and Dawn would prove that the redesigns in BW aren't that drastic, the main difference is everyone's pupils are bigger and more defined, that's all for the humans anyway. Most Pokemon look different because of different artists and because they simply have changed in game and anime-wise over the years.

    But this isn't about that.

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  19. #2544

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    Of course the animation will look more 'sleaker', but that's simply because it was reviewed 10+ years later when the animation has improved.

    Ash, and a large handful of Pokemon (Charmander, Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Charizard being some recent key examples related to this episode) look very different to their past anime appearances, and if you really disagree go and search them up now and then respond because they really are different.

    Also, the re-imagining of the past scenes that we've seen in Smash says alot about how things are different besides the appearances.

  20. #2545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    Of course the animation will look more 'sleaker', but that's simply because it was reviewed 10+ years later when the animation has improved.

    Ash, and a large handful of Pokemon (Charmander, Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Charizard being some recent key examples related to this episode) look very different to their past anime appearances, and if you really disagree go and search them up now and then respond because they really are different.

    Also, the re-imagining of the past scenes that we've seen in Smash says alot about how things are different besides the appearances.
    But it's different no?

    I don't have to, I have seen the Pokemon. I don't consider a handful large, nor do I think they're really that different in appearance either. And as already said, the changes are a result of different animators (similar to how there are sometimes obvious changes between artists in BW episodes) and because the Pokemon have changed in game as well.

    Re-imagining of scenes were just that, re-imagining, obviously not the same.

    (credit goes to Skiyomi)

  21. #2546
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    This is the danger of flashbacks because some of you pressed people in general are analysing every single movement for accuracy to the original.

    This fandom is a mess.

  22. #2547

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    But it's different no?
    I'm not saying it's not different, but it's not as drastic as BW because BW has almost gone as far as a redesign.

    I don't have to, I have seen the Pokemon. I don't consider a handful large, nor do I think they're really that different in appearance either.
    Fair enough, but it'd be good if you looked at Charizard from the OS, AG and DP, and then look at BW.

    And as already said, the changes are a result of different animators (similar to how there are sometimes obvious changes between artists in BW episodes) and because the Pokemon have changed in game as well.
    Yeah, but before BW they had a sense of looking like the actual thing, or original appearance.

    I agree with the game change though, a lot of Pokemon sprites have changed and the Pokemon have adjusted to that.

    Re-imagining of scenes were just that, re-imagining, obviously not the same.
    Re-imagining is the wrong word then.

    Re-viewing of the scenes when they aren't completely the same.

  23. #2548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    I'm not saying it's not different, but it's not as drastic as BW because BW has almost gone as far as a redesign.
    And that's your opinion, besides some of the humans that have been around longer than others, I don't see a drastic re-design. DP had multiple people with BW style animation.

    Fair enough, but it'd be good if you looked at Charizard from the OS, AG and DP, and then look at BW.
    And I have, I just said that. I don't consider Charizard's appearance that different at all. The only thing being it's horns, which again have changed to reflect it's game design.

    Yeah, but before BW they had a sense of looking like the actual thing, or original appearance.

    I agree with the game change though, a lot of Pokemon sprites have changed and the Pokemon have adjusted to that.
    So they don't look like the original anymore? I don't agree with that. Or did you not see Butterfree's flashback in DP? Caterpie had an obvious change from then.

    Exactly, the anime has to respect those changes, because who is gonna nitpick that? It's not drastic.

    Re-imagining is the wrong word then.

    Re-viewing of the scenes when they aren't completely the same.
    And that's bad? I haven't seen a scene that was completely different or straight wrong. I think people are being uptight about nothing. Come on people.

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  24. #2549
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatersGonnaHate View Post
    This is the danger of flashbacks because some of you pressed people in general are analysing every single movement for accuracy to the original.

    This fandom is a mess.
    I would have been content if the flashbacks were simply the actual clips of the old episodes, not redrawn scenes.

  25. #2550

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    And I have, I just said that. I don't consider Charizard's appearance that different at all. The only thing being it's horns, which again have changed to reflect it's game design.
    Really? It's been given a much more lizard like look (which makes sense considering it's name, but a bit late to do now this far into the show), it's horns are longer, it's snout is out more and it's belly is much more rounded.

    So they don't look like the original anymore? I don't agree with that. Or did you not see Butterfree's flashback in DP? Caterpie had an obvious change from then.
    Huh, i'm only talking about the BW anime changes.

    Barely anything changed through the course of OS, AG and DP.

    And that's bad? I haven't seen a scene that was completely different or straight wrong. I think people are being uptight about nothing. Come on people.
    It's not bad, i'm just stating.

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