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Thread: BWS2EN-8 - Charizard [FIRST POST UPDATED 2/7]

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    Im not talking about Bulbasaur getting that win ahead of Charizard, I mean, why couldnt Squirtle or Pikachu get the win against Dusclops?




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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Squirtle beat a neutral ninjask which is far harder to hit and Pikachu beat a legendary. Since Charizard's plushie factor is so much less than those 3 it gets nothing. Let's not kid ourselves here, if Ash used bulbasaur vs Noland the writers would have DEMd it to a win regardless.
    Again, Lizardon is a much more marketable Pokemon than both Kanto starters. So marketing has nothing to do with it, he already got a more than exceptional win against Freezer. Any Pokemon that couldn't fly and have a type advantage would have probably been defeated fairly quickly by Freezer so it makes total sense he would use Lizardon against it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d4rk_tailed View Post
    Im not talking about Bulbasaur getting that win ahead of Charizard, I mean, why couldnt Squirtle or Pikachu get the win against Dusclops?
    Because they needed to conserve their energy vs Ninjask and Regice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Again, Lizardon is a much more marketable Pokemon than both Kanto starters. So marketing has nothing to do with it, he already got a more than exceptional win against Freezer. Any Pokemon that couldn't fly and have a type advantage would have probably been defeated fairly quickly by Freezer so it makes total sense he would use Lizardon against it.
    So one win at the beginning means he has to get screwed over at the end?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Because they needed to conserve their energy vs Ninjask and Regice.
    OK I apologise Im wording this very poorly, Im sorry.

    I mean, Squirtle and Pikachu have some way in which theyre battle-wise superior to Charizard, unlike Bulbasaur. In the story, Ash doesnt know about Ninjask/Regice till theyre sent out.

    So why dont the writers let the Pokemon that are defensively or speedwise superior over Charizard take the Dusclops win? And then readjust the win ratio on Solrock, Ninjask and Regice?




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    Quote Originally Posted by d4rk_tailed View Post
    OK I apologise Im wording this very poorly, Im sorry.

    I mean, Squirtle and Pikachu have some way in which theyre battle-wise superior to Charizard, unlike Bulbasaur. In the story, Ash doesnt know about Ninjask/Regice till theyre sent out.

    So why dont the writers let the Pokemon that are defensively or speedwise superior over Charizard take the Dusclops win? And then readjust the win ratio on Solrock, Ninjask and Regice?
    That's because none of them were superior to Charizard in any way. The writers just thought hey instead of taking the final symbol seriously we'll just make it 3 small mons(smaller for dusclops) and a big mon on each side! and then humiliate the big mons because that sells toys! Why elese did you think Regice got OHKOd?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    So one win at the beginning means he has to get screwed over at the end?!
    Don't see how that's getting screwed over. It was the strongest Frontier Brain's Pokemon.


    On another note, I can't wait to see Kairyu and Lizardon's turn from fighting to friendship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    The battle was basically a slap to fans and Ash, who think using Charizard would automatically give Ash wins.
    Which is a good thing as it reinforces the fact that no matter how strong a Pokemon is, there's always a Pokemon that's stronger. But like I said before, I can't @ all the excuses that were made for Charizard's loss against Brandon. I mean obviously Brandon was a powerful trainer, but it doesn't change the fact that Charizard - the Pokemon that trained continuously for battles like that one - lost to a mere Dusclops. Same goes for his loss against Harrison's Blaziken although surprisingly enough, nobody has been about to refute the fact that Charizard was overwhelmed during that match. Either way, I'd love to see Charizard lose to Dragonite, if it does indeed belong to Ash.

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    I could easily see Lizardon winning due to being the veteran Pokemon but a tie seems most likely imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Don't see how that's getting screwed over. It was the strongest Frontier Brain's Pokemon.
    Something is clearly wrong if Dusclops is stronger than the regis.

    Oh god if Ash and iris fight Charizard had better win. It's been humiliated enough. They can bond over their love of disobeying their trainers and tanking ice moves after the battle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Something is clearly wrong if Dusclops is stronger than the regis.
    It might have just been stronger than Regice, again, the Regis are lower tier legendaries and are beatable. Plus he had only recently caught Regice a little while back. I'm glad Seismic Toss didn't work, the move was portrayed as too infallible in OS and the early part of AG.
    Last edited by Doryuzu; 3rd February 2013 at 9:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    That's because none of them were superior to Charizard in any way. The writers just thought hey instead of taking the final symbol seriously we'll just make it 3 small mons(smaller for dusclops) and a big mon on each side! and then humiliate the big mons because that sells toys! Why elese did you think Regice got OHKOd?
    Well, Pikachu at the very least is better than Charizard right?

    I just like to think the Regice battle was just writen very badly. Personally if Id written it Charizard would have beaten Regice.




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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Something is clearly wrong if Dusclops is stronger than the regis.

    Oh god if Ash and iris fight Charizard had better win. It's been humiliated enough. They can bond over their love of disobeying their trainers and tanking ice moves after the battle.
    well 1 thing i've thought is that if Ash's charizard were to beat Dragonite badly it might make it more willing to avoid attacks and may humble it a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    On another note, I can't wait to see Kairyu and Lizardon's turn from fighting to friendship.

    NegaiRyuuShipping FTW!
    I don't get why everyone is so convinced that's happening. The ending really shouldn't be counted as proof. Its just a bunch of random drawings that I doubt reflects actual events. Unless people also think were getting an episode involving a shopping trip

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    Quote Originally Posted by d4rk_tailed View Post
    Well, Pikachu at the very least is better than Charizard right?

    I just like to think the Regice battle was just writen very badly. Personally if Id written it Charizard would have beaten Regice.
    Well sure, if you think Charizard can lose to an out of the lab oshawott if Reshiram took away its fire attacks.

    Same here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AceDetective View Post
    I don't get why everyone is so convinced that's happening. The ending really shouldn't be counted as proof. Its just a bunch of random drawings that I doubt reflects actual events. Unless people also think were getting an episode involving a shopping trip
    It's fairly likely however that Kairyu and Lizardon will indeed become friends, while I agree the shopping image as well as a few other images like the image of N in the forest around all the Pokemon might not hold any water. Scenes like Kairyu & Lizardon broing around are ones that I could easily see happening. We even have this episode most likely staring Kairyu battling Lizardon so it's not too far'fetched to think those two might become buddies. They're pretty much similar t each other and two very popular Kanto Pokemon as well as draconic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Which is a good thing as it reinforces the fact that no matter how strong a Pokemon is, there's always a Pokemon that's stronger. But like I said before, I can't @ all the excuses that were made for Charizard's loss against Brandon. I mean obviously Brandon was a powerful trainer, but it doesn't change the fact that Charizard - the Pokemon that trained continuously for battles like that one - lost to a mere Dusclops. Same goes for his loss against Harrison's Blaziken although surprisingly enough, nobody has been about to refute the fact that Charizard was overwhelmed during that match. Either way, I'd love to see Charizard lose to Dragonite, if it does indeed belong to Ash.
    I doubt Charizard will lose its 1st battle back. It'll either win against Dragonite, or most likely tie with it, but it definitely won't lose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    I could easily see Lizardon winning due to being the veteran Pokemon but a tie seems most likely imo.
    veteran
    We need to forget about this word forever, we know it's been more than 6 years since Charizard appeared, but anime doesn't care about that, so anything can happen in this battle, even him losing (It hurts when typing this).
    Last edited by ludiloco; 4th February 2013 at 1:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DawnBoy View Post
    I doubt Charizard will lose its 1st battle back. It'll either win against Dragonite, or most likely tie with it, but it definitely won't lose.
    ^Pretty much this. If Charizard vs Dragonite does happen I see a tie happening more than anything else. Charizard's definitely not losing on its return.

    On a related note, has it been confirmed that this Charizard is Ash's? I don't wanna get my hopes up if we don't know





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    Quote Originally Posted by ludiloco View Post
    We need to forget about this word forever, we know it's been more than 6 years since Charizard appeared, but anime doesn't care about that, so anything can happen in this battle, even him losing (It hurts when typing this).
    Yeah, I know. I could just see him winning due to his exposure and that's that. Because let's be honest here. Could Kairyu beat Lizardon? Yes. Is there any reason to believe Kairyu is less experienced or weaker than Lizardon? No. Does Kairyu have the moves, strength, and typing to realistically beat Lizardon? Yes. Will he most likely win? No. They'll probably tie at best or have Lizardon win.

    Though I find it amusing how powerful Lizardon is in the anime despite it being pretty crap competitively and Kairyu being helluva more superior in stats, moves, rarity, and status. I'm still holding on to the idea Iris's Kairyu has MultiScale. :P
    Last edited by Doryuzu; 4th February 2013 at 2:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Yeah, I know. I could just see him winning due to his expose and that's that. Because let's be honest here. Could Kairyu beat Lizardon? Yes. Is there any reason to believe Kairyu is less experienced or weaker than Lizardon? No. Does Kairyu have the moves, strength, and typing to realistically beat Lizardon? Yes. Will he most likely win? No. They'll probably tie at best or have Lizardon win.

    Though I find it amusing how powerful Lizardon is in the anime despite it being pretty crap competitively and Kairyu being helluva more superior in stats, moves, rarity, and status. I'm still holding on to the idea Iris's Kairyu has MultiScale. :P
    Well Charizard is only crap due to stealth rock which does not exist in the anime in any real capacity and it used to be the single most feared physical sweeper in the game back in gen 3.

    I bet Swellow also has motor drive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Well Charizard is only crap due to stealth rock which does not exist in the anime in any real capacity and it used to be the single most feared physical sweeper in the game back in gen 3.
    Lizardon is crap competitively due to its crappy stats & type. Stealth Rock(And Stone Edge)just further accelerated the problem. Even his speed is just good now, not impressive since he gets out-sped by many other Pokemon. Mediocre bulk and a passable movepool.

    I bet Swellow also has motor drive.
    I'd bet that too if it actually had it in-game. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Lizardon is crap competitively due to its crappy stats & type. Stealth Rock(And Stone Edge)just further accelerated the problem. Even his speed is just good now, not impressive since he gets out-sped by many other Pokemon. Mediocre bulk and a passable movepool.
    That typing actually isn't that bad if it wasn't for stealth rocks >3>...
    its more the speed. And the move pool is quite good, espcially for a sun team (Fire blast, Solarbeam, air slash, dragon pulse etc.

    really, it would just be "out-classed" if it wasn't for stealth rocks. And solar power would give it even more of a niche. .-.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    That typing actually isn't that bad if it wasn't for stealth rocks >3>...
    its more the speed. And the move pool is quite good, espcially for a sun team (Fire blast, Solarbeam, air slash, dragon pulse etc.

    really, it would just be "out-classed" if it wasn't for stealth rocks. And solar power would give it even more of a niche. .-.
    It doesn't really have the bulk to pull off Solar Power effectively in OU or UU and that means also running a Life Orb. Getting out-sped pretty much means death too, doesn't have the bulk to run Roost well either unfortunately. Most people would probably opt for Ulgamoth over Lizardon though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    The battle was basically a slap to fans and Ash, who think using Charizard would automatically give Ash wins. After Articuno, it balanced things well. Dusclops might seem like an inferior Pokemon to lose to, but it belonged to a frontier brain.

    Ash's Charizard isn't an almighty powerful Pokemon that grants victories. If not properly used, even Charizard could lose, that's what the writers showed us. It was a damn good move.

    Yeah, I am saying Charizard losing to Dusclops is a damn good move. It's my opinion though.
    While true that it was a good move to make, it's not really what is discussed, or what is at the essence of the discussion.. The discussion is not based on that Charizard lost, but how he lost: Was it a mistake Ash made, or was Brandon's tactical choices just better. I agree with your opinion. Losing made the battle a tough uphill battle, which was good to see. Ash made one mistake, and people suddenly see it as the factor why Charizard lost the match, and give additional reasonings that Ash only charged in headstrong at the time, while he didn't. Ash wanted to switch Charizard out, but Mean Look prevented that, and Brandon countered most of the moves Charizard threw at Dusclops, so what could Ash do but try and force an opening in one way or another, hence went for Seismic Toss, and that opening backfired. It was not a bad move to try and force an opening when all else has failed. Just look at the vs. Tobias match. Ash should've switched out Sceptile once asleep, but didn't, but won anyway. If anything, Ash made better choices concerning Charizard vs. Brandon then with Sceptile vs. Tobias. Ash was just lucky that Sceptile heard him, woke up, and got his opening that way. If you remember, Charizard was confused, or whatnot in the battle as well, and similar dynamics happened as well, but it didn't create an opening for Ash in that battle. Definitely due to Brandon being calm when battling and Tobias being overconfident.

    So that's just another analysis that proves that it was Brandon who ensured a victory over Charizard, rather then Charizard losing because of Ash.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    The plushie factor for bulbasaur is greater and in the end of the day, that's all that matters to the writers.

    Charizard had better beat a Genesect before leaving.
    Yeah, which is the reason why Bulbasaur came back and is selling lots and lots of merchandise at this very moment... Charizard plushies are popular. More popular then Bulbasaur plushies, which are just odd, because Bulbasaur is odd. It may be oddly cool, but not as hot cool as Charizard. We're seeing a Charmander on stage in the scan, not a Bulbasaur. Perhaps that's because of the nature of the episode, or just that Bulbasaur is less popular then Charmander/Squirtle.

    Pikachu, Charizard, Dragonite, Pignite, Krookodile. I see these as the ones that will take down the Genesect for sure.. Though it's quite troublesome to know that these are either weak to the Chill or Douse drives that the Genesect hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Greater than Charizard hence why it only beat a weakened dusclops and a Solrock where it had the type advantage. But less than the other 2.

    Squirtle beat a neutral ninjask which is far harder to hit and Pikachu beat a legendary. Since Charizard's plushie factor is so much less than those 3 it gets nothing. Let's not kid ourselves here, if Ash used bulbasaur vs Noland the writers would have DEMd it to a win regardless.
    Bulbasaur has a type DISadvantage against Solrock. It's part Poison you know.. Psywave and Confusion hit it supereffectively with STAB..

    Honestly, if Bulbasaur had to take out a legendary, they would've probably taken something like a domesticated Suicune/Raikou or Regirock, without the sense of wild bravoure.

    I could see a matchoff between Squirtle and a Heatran for instance, that would be worthy as well. Fact remains that Ash's Charizard faced an Articuno. A pokemon that is weak to fire, and neutral to dragon and fighting-type moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludiloco View Post
    We need to forget about this word forever, we know it's been more than 6 years since Charizard appeared, but anime doesn't care about that, so anything can happen in this battle, even him losing (It hurts when typing this).
    Yeah, it's been molested by the American warfueled discourse. I doubt that in any other country the term 'veteran' gets as beloaded as in the American discourse. Charizard is not a veteran. He's not stopped fighting yet. A veteran is somebody who has had partaken in an experience, and is now grown out of the need to be actively pertaining in the acts surrounding this experience in the general sense. In the American discourse, connotations of war, military and heroism are immediately latched onto the word. In the general sense, it makes me not want to use the word anymore as the connotations do not fit with how I usually would want to use the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Lizardon is crap competitively due to its crappy stats & type. Stealth Rock(And Stone Edge)just further accelerated the problem. Even his speed is just good now, not impressive since he gets out-sped by many other Pokemon. Mediocre bulk and a passable movepool.

    I'd bet that too if it actually had it in-game. :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    It doesn't really have the bulk to pull off Solar Power effectively in OU or UU and that means also running a Life Orb. Getting out-sped pretty much means death too, doesn't have the bulk to run Roost well either unfortunately. Most people would probably opt for Ulgamoth over Lizardon though.
    What it does it does best. Destroy things in the sun. I'm not saying its better then the moth that can sweep thanks to quiver dance, I'm just saying without stealthrocks, you very much so could use it without dieing and not doing anything.

    I also have no really idea what good bulks gonna do ya on a set that you end up killing yourself on. ._. I understand to take hits (One hit then die), but you run away if the pokemon is faster, or if you somehow couldn't kill the opposing pokemon (lets say its blissey/chansey or something I guess. I don't even remember the calcs.)
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
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