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Thread: Sunshine and Steel-Killers: OU Sun Team

  1. #1
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    Post Sunshine and Steel-Killers: OU Sun Team

    Supp! After a lot of reading, testing, and experience, I've decided to post this team for RMT. There are few counters that I've had problems with, and this team has never been sweeped. Just, note, Rotom should be a Rotom-Wash. I just didn't have a sprite for it. Haha!


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    First Member
    Ninetails

    Ninetales @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 12 Spd / 80 Def / 164 HP
    Modest Nature
    - SolarBeam
    - Nasty Plot
    - Hypnosis
    - Flamethrower


    Here, Ninetails is usually my lead. She/he's also one of my favorite Pokemon ever. Anyway, Ninetails frequently sweeps with ease. With the combo of SolarBeam and Flamethrower, Ninetails already is a clear SpAtk tank. Then, with the combo of Nasty Plot and Hypnosis, it makes enemies too easy. Speedy Ground-types are really the only reoccurring check to this Pokemon. Many people switch out when Ninetails is my lead, rather than Scizor (who occasionally leads) or Metagross. Then, I use Nasty Plot, and they can't do anything because there turn was switching out. Onward to the next Pokemon! (Scroll downwards!)

    Second Member
    Scizor

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 104 Spd / 152 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - U-turn
    - Pursuit


    Scizor is my Atk Offensive, with a taste of a wall on him. Swords Dance and Bullet Punch is the usual, but if I come across a Celebi, or a Venusaur, then I have Pursuit in there. I don't use it so often, but when I was building the team, it seemed like a good idea to me. Of course, U-Turn is very useful as well. Scizor takes down a lot of Pokemon with Bullet Punch, and is a great compliment to Ninetails. Also, I use this guy to demolish Tyranitars and Politoeds. They throw in Tyranitar (as there lead) and Scizor destroys him. Then, Ninetails is back in and Drought takes it away. Next up!

    Third Pokemon
    Venusaur

    Venusaur @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Giga Drain
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Powder


    Venusaur's role is support. When I don't have a Pokemon I think will finish that Gallade with four BulkUps on it, I throw in this guy. Leech Seed has always been an amazing move that I loved since the start. Then, Sleep Powder is good for those Pokemon that are sweeping. Giga Drain is the SpAtk move to keep them busy. They switch out, or, occasionally just beat Venusaur. That almost never happens though, because Chlorophyll makes him, just too fast. Also, with Chlorophyll, Heatran can't outrun him, so Earthquake OHKOs it. Continuing on...!

    Fourth Poke
    Rotom-Wash

    Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Substitute
    - Pain Split
    - Hydro Pump
    - Discharge


    I was never a big fan of the Rotoms. I thought that it was a bit ... Gimmicky. Now, I'm using it rather than Gengar (who I love, and will probably end up replacing this guy). Rotom-W has Sub/Pain Split thing going for him, and that's pretty succesful. Then Hydro Pump and Discharge are for Pokes who are weak to SpAtk Water/Electric. Hydro Pump is for Landorus/Thunderous. This guy is probably the only huge flaw. Well, moving on.

    Fifth Member
    Metagross

    Metagross @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Impish Nature
    - Agility
    - Meteor Mash
    - Trick
    - Zen Headbutt


    Ah, Metagross. This guy is preeeeeeeeeeetty good. Agility makes him very balanced, and obviously, speedy. Meteor Mash is his main move, though Zen Headbutt comes in handy very often. I feel trick is one of Metagross' specialties. Toxic Orb and Iron Ball are two items I use often with this move and this Pokemon. It really helps to use it because people don't see it coming so much. Well, that's pretty much it. Last member!


    Final Pokemon
    Cloyster

    Cloyster @ Leftovers
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Impish Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Icicle Spear
    - Spikes


    Here's my spinner/set-upper. I was considering Forretress, but that's one too many Fire weaknesses. Anyway, a basic set. Icicle Spear to utilize Skill Link and for a move that isn't Rapid Spin. Not much to say here. He's replaceable. Not special, really. He gets the job done, and that's pretty much it. Well, that's all!

    -EDIT-
    Thanks to Blue Harvest and many other raters, I've devised this new team of Sunshine and Steel-Killers!

    Ninetales @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 12 Spd / 80 Def / 164 HP
    Modest Nature
    - SolarBeam
    - Nasty Plot
    - Hypnosis
    - Flamethrower

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - U-turn
    - Roost

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
    Rash Nature
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Giga Drain
    - Earthquake
    - Growth

    Victini @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Bolt Strike
    - V-create
    - U-turn
    - Brick Break

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Volt Switch
    - Gyro Ball

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    IVs: 26 HP
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reversal
    - Substitute


    Thanks for reading, and I'll take ideas into consideration! I may not take some ideas though, for example, no Specially Defensive Ninetails. Thank you!
    Last edited by Chapter; 14th February 2013 at 2:37 AM.


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  2. #2
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    Ninetales can't touch Heatran. A very common lead. 4X Resistance to Grass, and Flash Fire.

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    I would suggest making cloyster a shell smash sweeper with skill link.
    It's better and just so you still have hazards, drop rotom for heatran. Make it specially defensive and have roar, stealth rocks. That way you'll have a flash fire Mon . Scizor has a 4x weakness to fire, so switch in heatran on a predicted fire move and using that free a special attack boost, use magma storm or fire blast. And give Metagross a life orb and drop trick for earthquake so you're not destroyed by other heatran. Hope that helps and good luck with your team
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  4. #4
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    Ninetales can't touch Heatran. A very common lead. 4X Resistance to Grass, and Flash Fire.
    Heatran is not a very common lead. He is somewhat common, but definitely not as a lead.
    I would suggest making cloyster a shell smash sweeper with skill link.
    It's better and just so you still have hazards, drop rotom for heatran. Make it specially defensive and have roar, stealth rocks. That way you'll have a flash fire Mon . Scizor has a 4x weakness to fire, so switch in heatran on a predicted fire move and using that free a special attack boost, use magma storm or fire blast. And give Metagross a life orb and drop trick for earthquake so you're not destroyed by other heatran. Hope that helps and good luck with your team
    I suppose. Who should Heatran be in 4? Rotom? I could do that. Not in love with RW. CLoyster should be a shell smasher, but i feel ninetails and scizor have it covered. ill test it though.

    thanks, the both of you.


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    I really want to know who leads with heatran in a rain dominated metagame

    overall a weak team, focus sash sucks on ninetales, plus ninetales sub par stats make it a terrible sweeper. Support saur is a waste of a powerful chlorophyll sweeper, as there are better sub seeders like celebi and breloom. Swords dance and u turn is wasteful as you`ll lose the boost, agili-gross is meh,, he really needs the LO to be threatening and even with 3 attacks he lacks the coverage needed to sweep. As for cloyster there are better hazard stacking spinners.
    As for a threat list to the team
    landorus i-walled only by rotom wash and its a 2hko so it cant switch in, plus yours cant do anything to it
    dragonite-honestly no solid walls, and can plow through the team with earthquake/fire punch and outrage. Cloyster is the only hope really and i think its a 2hko at +1
    generic rain-thunderus therian is a huge rain threat as he agilities and proceeds to OHKO everyone, bar maybe venusaur
    Sand-breaks tales sash, ttar threatens powerful crunches and stone edges while lando and keldeo just threaten beating everything
    Other sun teams- ther sun teams destroy this team, especial with heatran(whos a staple sun member)
    Hail- honestly only one fire mon and 1 other mon carrying a fire move, abomasnow can destry this team solo, and then sub roost kyurem and sub 3 attack kyurem black sweep

    I would switch cloyster for forrtress and metagross for dugtrio to make a volt switch trap combo, as well as trap ttar, politoad, tentacruel, jirachi, etc. Next drop rotom wash, hes really doing nothing that venusaur cant do, i would add a dragon, preferably latias or dragonite as they help with landorus i(more latias), keldeo, rain in general, as well as provide a lot of offensive power that sun teams need. Next i would switch scizor for choice scarf victini to abuse the fire boost of sun. Its v create is the second most powerful move in the game under the sun, passed only by darmatians flare blitz. Victini also gives you a solid lead and a tyrannitar bait, you can u turn out of it and trap it with duggy. I would switch venusaur to a mixed set as his main switch in is heatran, followed by siczor and dragons. With earthquake, giga drain, sleep powder/sludge bomb, and hp ice/fire and a LO, venusaur can remove a lot of things that wall victini and that are problems in general. I cant remember the exact ev spread, but i know its enough speed to pass scarfed latios (525) so 264 speed (you`ll need naive) and enough attack to hit 220, which guaranties a OHKO on heatran. Finally i would switch ninetales to a physically defensive set to provide better support to maintain sun and weaken enemy water inducers



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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter of Charizard View Post
    Heatran is not a very common lead. He is somewhat common, but definitely not as a lead.
    I've seen a Heatran as a lead MANY times!
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    15 | Heatran | 1.81054% | 15235 | 1.603%
    as compared to
    1 | Politoed | 9.35513% | 79747 | 8.389%



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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger
    I would switch cloyster for forrtress and metagross for dugtrio to make a volt switch trap combo, as well as trap ttar, politoad, tentacruel, jirachi, etc. Next drop rotom wash, hes really doing nothing that venusaur cant do, i would add a dragon, preferably latias or dragonite as they help with landorus i(more latias), keldeo, rain in general, as well as provide a lot of offensive power that sun teams need. Next i would switch scizor for choice scarf victini to abuse the fire boost of sun. Its v create is the second most powerful move in the game under the sun, passed only by darmatians flare blitz. Victini also gives you a solid lead and a tyrannitar bait, you can u turn out of it and trap it with duggy. I would switch venusaur to a mixed set as his main switch in is heatran, followed by siczor and dragons. With earthquake, giga drain, sleep powder/sludge bomb, and hp ice/fire and a LO, venusaur can remove a lot of things that wall victini and that are problems in general. I cant remember the exact ev spread, but i know its enough speed to pass scarfed latios (525) so 264 speed (you`ll need naive) and enough attack to hit 220, which guaranties a OHKO on heatran. Finally i would switch ninetales to a physically defensive set to provide better support to maintain sun and weaken enemy water inducers
    I agree with a lot of this. First, though, is that I really don't want a Forretress because that would give so many fire weaknesses. Next, Scizor and Ninetails are definitely not leaving because I've swept so many times with them. I get ninetails out when a Ttar or a Poli comes in, and scizor is there. Scizor demolishes Ttar with bullet punch, and i often do the same for polis. Sure, its not so effective, but then i use pursuit a lot too. This is because they excpect me to uturn into ninetails for sun, so they do the same to get rain back. Instead, i use pursuit to kill it (technician) and ninetails comes in with uturn this turn. Next YES. I honestly hate Venusaur's moveset. Though, instead of HP, what if i had leech seed. That's the only move i really dont want to get rid of. Now for checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger
    overall a weak team, focus sash sucks on ninetales, plus ninetales sub par stats make it a terrible sweeper. Support saur is a waste of a powerful chlorophyll sweeper, as there are better sub seeders like celebi and breloom. Swords dance and u turn is wasteful as you`ll lose the boost, agili-gross is meh,, he really needs the LO to be threatening and even with 3 attacks he lacks the coverage needed to sweep. As for cloyster there are better hazard stacking spinners.
    As for a threat list to the team
    landorus i-walled only by rotom wash and its a 2hko so it cant switch in, plus yours cant do anything to it
    dragonite-honestly no solid walls, and can plow through the team with earthquake/fire punch and outrage. Cloyster is the only hope really and i think its a 2hko at +1
    generic rain-thunderus therian is a huge rain threat as he agilities and proceeds to OHKO everyone, bar maybe venusaur
    Sand-breaks tales sash, ttar threatens powerful crunches and stone edges while lando and keldeo just threaten beating everything
    Other sun teams- ther sun teams destroy this team, especial with heatran(whos a staple sun member)
    Hail- honestly only one fire mon and 1 other mon carrying a fire move, abomasnow can destry this team solo, and then sub roost kyurem and sub 3 attack kyurem black sweep
    Generic rain- has never been a problem with what i explained earlier. ThundT is a check to this team. There aren't going to be none.
    Sand- No, once again, i use scizor to demolish ttar. lando is probably another check. I think incarnate, he is. Oh, yes, u mentioned that above.
    Hail- Ur really contradicting urself. Abomasnow couldn't last a turn on ninetails!
    ttar- said in the sand section: first, ninetails is far faster than ttar. solarbeam. dead. of course, that wouldnt work if it were sandstorm. so, scizor. bullet punch. dead. Also, if were looking at base stats, scizor is onl 4 points behind ttar in attack.
    dragonite- cloyster could be a shell smash skill link thing. ill try that out.
    I think i got them all.

    I agree with a lot of it, but not really the checks. I've got these checks:

    ThunderusT
    Dragonite(?)
    LandorusI

    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger
    15 | Heatran | 1.81054% | 15235 | 1.603%
    as compared to
    1 | Politoed | 9.35513% | 79747 | 8.389%
    Where does that statistic come from? First hand, Heatran do not lead very often. People rather a Ttar or a Poli or a NineT or a Absnow.


    Quote Originally Posted by ysmr97
    I've seen a Heatran as a lead MANY times!
    Ok then... How does this help me? LOL. He already said that in the post above you.
    I should cover for heatran. Ill try different pokes. But I cant do that if you dontgive me anything to do on my team really.

    Thank you guys! Ill try ShellSmash Cloyster, and then Dugtrio in for Metagross. Before I go though.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger
    Finally i would switch ninetales to a physically defensive set to provide better support to maintain sun and weaken enemy water inducers
    No.

    XDXDXD


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    ...Don't be mad, I had to look up the proper way to rate a team. Let's get started.

    First of all, I like how you built the team around scizor and have many things that take out its counters, mainly things though that remove bulky waters from its path like venusaur and rotom wash. The one type you're having major problems with, however, is ground types.

    The first glaring weakness comes in the form of gliscor. Venusaur is a real check you have for any set that isn't acrobat (venusaur gets ohkoed by acrobatics), as is cloyster, albeit getting 3hkoed buy acrobatics. Otherwise, we're talking toxic stall on every thing from behind a sub minus scizor, who unfortunately can't break a substitute without a boost in one shot from bullet punch and gets 3hkoed by earthquake.

    If you ever decide to bring the team to pokemon showdown, sub sd garchomp can demolish this team. It pretty much has to set up a sub and can 1-2hko your entire team without a boost.

    Hippowdon also presents the same problems as gliscor in addition to setting up sand. However, it is slower and will usually fall victim to your sleep attacks.

    Landorus i as previously mentioned wrecks havoc upon this team, 2hkoing everything and just laughing at rotom.

    Latis also present a huge threat, outspeeding scizor and not minding much else except sleep and leech seed.

    Changes:
    Rotom wash: hidden power ice and thunderbolt over your current attacking moves.
    Cloyster: This one is probably the biggest change you can make. Make it a shell smash set.
    Metagross: Also as previously mentioned, toss. Switch with donphan to make up for the loss of your spinner while also gaining something that can set up stealth rocks. This additionally gives you a heatran counter/check and a way to revenge kill with ice shard:
    Donphan @ lefties
    adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    rapid spin / earthquake / ice shard / stealth rock

  10. #10
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    This is an ok team. Needs a lot of work though. A LOT.

    Offensive SD Scizor basically 6-0s once Ninetales is brought down to 50%.

    Politoed has many free switch ins and will always win the weather war unless you get lucky with Hypnosis. Only Rotom W can sorta switch in but it is 2HKOed by Specs Hydro Pump or Hp Grass after rocks with just 10% prior damage.

    Considering this is a sun team Sub CM Jirachi has an extremely easy time with you. After a Calm Mind HP Fire from Venusaur struggles to do 30%... IN THE SUN. After two it won't even break a Sub. If you lose the weather war and they get Rain up you are 6-0ed without mercy.

    Dragonite that runs Dragon Claw > Outrage will 6-0.

    Specially Defensive Heatran absolutely crushes everything, using your own Sun against you. It sets up rocks and Roars around your team. Here is a list of the most damaging moves each of your Pokemon can manage against it (assuming Strong sunlight).

    252+ SpA Ninetales SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 18-21 (4.66 - 5.44%)
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 34-41 (8.8 - 10.62%)
    4 SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 14-17 (3.62 - 4.4%)
    8 SpA Rotom-W Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 63-75 (16.32 - 19.43%)
    252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 70-83 (18.13 - 21.5%)
    0- SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in sun: 68-84 (17.61 - 21.76%)

    Maybe you can see where I'm going with this. Sun boosted Lava Plume deals heavy damage to the rest of your team barring Ninetales who still dies, and Rotom W who will end up burned and dead.

    Tyranitar eradicates Ninetales with Choice Band Pursuit. Solarbeam only does 17.09 - 20.2% so unless you can Hypnosis it you will lose the weather war and probably the game. You say Scizor counters TTar but completely ignore the fact that Ninetales is Pursuited and erased before the metal bug even hits the field. TTar also commonly carries Fire Blast and Stealth Rocks, putting further pressure on your team. Oh and Scizor doesn't even counter CB TTar.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 164 HP / 80 Def Ninetales: 253-298 (77.13 - 90.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 274-324 (85.89 - 101.56%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Swords Dance Garchomp 6-0s. +2 Earthquake / Dragon Claw OHKOs your entire team barring Cloyster who does a magnificent 16.24 - 19.32% back with Impish Hydro Pump in sunlight.

    Volcarona 6-0s as long as Rotom W can't Paralyze it (and then there is the risk of Lum Berry anyway).

    Mixed Salamence will give you a lot of trouble as in the sun it OHKOs all of your team with just two moves.

    Rock Polish Landorus Therian ends you. To give you an idea of how strong it is LO Adamant Earthquake can OHKO Venusaur and Scizor after Stealth Rocks.

    With Rocks down Agility Thundurus OHKOs your entire team barring Venusaur who can't OHKO back and Rotom W who literally can do nothing besides watch as it Nasty Plots.

    Choice Band Infernape mashes your entire team with its two STABs alone.

    Swords Dance Lucario 6-0s. Any strong Fighting type moves pose a threat.



    It's hard to make changes that will fix so many, many problems.

    Change Ninetales to a Specially Defensive spread. Fire Blast / Sunny Day / Will-O-Wisp / filler (probably Roar because Volcarona crushes you). You need to win the weather war or at least not get utterly devastated in it. Solarbeam Nasty Plot Ninetales is suicide against Tyranitar and Politoed.

    Scizor is trying to do a bunch of things at once and failing at all of them. Either drop Pursuit for Roost and run a Specially Defensive spread or just run Choice Band. I suggest running Superpower > Swords Dance and running Choice Band because of how bad Heatran destroys you. Either drop most of the speed or run 112 speed. The speed you run ties with Smogon standard Sp Def Heatran. 112 speed beats it by a few points.

    Why are you running two STAB moves on Rotom W. Drop Discharge for HP Ice so you don't get set up on by every Electric immune poke in the world. Try Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave > Substitute too. Use Volt-Switch more... it gives you a way to get Ninetales in for free.

    Drop Metagross. It doesn't really do anything on Sun teams and your set is awful anyway. Try Focus Sash Dugtrio since it beats Tyranitar and Heatran, both of whom demolish you. It also gives you Stealth Rocks.

    Try running a mixed Growth Venusaur. Giga Drain or Seed Bomb / HP Ice / Earthquake / Growth. This might slightly reduce your weakness to Garchomp and Heatran.

    You can either drop Cloyster for a Forretress, Tentacruel, or just run an offensive HP Fire / Shell Smash / Ice / Rock set. Cloyster's main counters have a lot of trouble sponging HP Fires and it is still able to check most physical attacks. You can also run Forretress > Metagross and put something like Scarf Darmanitan or Victini > Cloyster.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueHarvest
    Change Ninetales to a Specially Defensive spread. Fire Blast / Sunny Day / Will-O-Wisp / filler (probably Roar because Volcarona crushes you). You need to win the weather war or at least not get utterly devastated in it. Solarbeam Nasty Plot Ninetales is suicide against Tyranitar and Politoed.
    It really isn't. Politoed really isn't a match for Ninetails, and as for Ttar, Scizor defeats it easily.

    Also, one thing that is in common for almost every review, is that Heatran will wreak havoc. Well, no. Venusaur has Earthquake, and is now an attack support.

    Swords Dance Garchomp 6-0s. +2 Earthquake / Dragon Claw OHKOs your entire team barring Cloyster who does a magnificent 16.24 - 19.32% back with Impish Hydro Pump in sunlight.
    He has Icicle Spear. Though, not a shellsmash set.

    Dragons (Gar and Dite) are crushed by Cloyster. RotomW now has Hydro Pump. Testing now.

    [QUOTE=dewhinifier[...Don't be mad, I had to look up the proper way to rate a team. Let's get started./QUOTE]

    Course not.

    Changes:
    Rotom wash: hidden power ice and thunderbolt over your current attacking moves.
    Cloyster: This one is probably the biggest change you can make. Make it a shell smash set.
    Metagross: Also as previously mentioned, toss. Switch with donphan to make up for the loss of your spinner while also gaining something that can set up stealth rocks. This additionally gives you a heatran counter/check and a way to revenge kill with ice shard:
    Donphan @ lefties
    adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    rapid spin / earthquake / ice shard / stealth rock
    All very valid. I didn't do all of this, but am rather slowly adding independdant variables and seeing how things work. BTW, this is PS.

    ~
    Here's a replay of beating Ttar and most others.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9555735
    Last edited by Chapter; 11th February 2013 at 1:53 AM.


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    Did you seriously ignore my entire rate? Why even post teams if you aren't going to read what people wrote.

    Besides Garchomp which you are now less weak to everything else I posted still applies. You are wrecked by literally half of OU. Try out what I, or others suggested and you might improve.

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    I didn't ignore it, I just read it through but didn't respond to it. Here, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueHarvest
    252+ SpA Ninetales SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 18-21 (4.66 - 5.44%)
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 34-41 (8.8 - 10.62%)
    4 SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 14-17 (3.62 - 4.4%)
    8 SpA Rotom-W Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 63-75 (16.32 - 19.43%)
    252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 70-83 (18.13 - 21.5%)
    0- SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in sun: 68-84 (17.61 - 21.76%)

    Maybe you can see where I'm going with this. Sun boosted Lava Plume deals heavy damage to the rest of your team barring Ninetales who still dies, and Rotom W who will end up burned and dead.
    All of the stats no longer apply because Venusaur OHKOs Heatran w/ Earthquake. Chlorophyll make him too fast for Heatran to do anything. Though, he often has an air ballon, Scizor comes and Bullet Punches him.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueHarvest
    You are wrecked by literally half of OU. Try out what I, or others suggested and you might improve.
    No, I'm definitely not. And I'm not doing everything suggested because this team is not just one I want to make perfect. Otherwise I'd use every perfect Pokemon out there, use every suggestion, and end up with mush. I take a bit from each suggestion to make things fair.

    Offensive SD Scizor basically 6-0s once Ninetales is brought down to 50%.
    SD = Specially Defensive? And, what? I don't really understand. My Scizor? Or one against me? I've killed Scizors before.

    [Politoed has many free switch ins and will always win the weather war unless you get lucky with Hypnosis. Only Rotom W can sorta switch in but it is 2HKOed by Specs Hydro Pump or Hp Grass after rocks with just 10% prior damage.
    I'm on the far side.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9555735

    Scizor is trying to do a bunch of things at once and failing at all of them. Either drop Pursuit for Roost and run a Specially Defensive spread or just run Choice Band. I suggest running Superpower > Swords Dance and running Choice Band because of how bad Heatran destroys you. Either drop most of the speed or run 112 speed. The speed you run ties with Smogon standard Sp Def Heatran. 112 speed beats it by a few points.
    He doesn't fail. Who cares if I lose a Swords Dance due to U-Turn? If he's still alive, and dealt damage, and just dealt damage on his exit ... seems successful to me.

    Change Ninetales to a Specially Defensive spread. Fire Blast / Sunny Day / Will-O-Wisp / filler (probably Roar because Volcarona crushes you). You need to win the weather war or at least not get utterly devastated in it. Solarbeam Nasty Plot Ninetales is suicide against Tyranitar and Politoed.
    No, Specially, Defensive, Ninetails. Neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. LOL - It just doesn't work here. Look again at the updated move-pools.

    Also ~ http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9588041
    Last edited by Chapter; 11th February 2013 at 2:54 PM.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter of Charizard View Post
    All of the stats no longer apply because Venusaur OHKOs Heatran w/ Earthquake. Chlorophyll make him too fast for Heatran to do anything. Though, he often has an air ballon, Scizor comes and Bullet Punches him.
    Uhh, sorry but it still applies. The only differences are now Rotom W caps at 30% with Hydro Pump in sun and Cloyster's damage output against it is basically nothing. Venusaur DOES NOT COUNTER HEATRAN, especially Modest Venusaur with no attack EVs. You say you OHKO Heatran? You only do with a crit.

    0- Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 208-248 (54.02 - 64.41%)

    Meanwhile Lava Plume in the Sun OHKOs with Rocks. Also you can not switch in while Heatran switches in for free against 4/6 of your Pokemon.


    No, I'm definitely not. And I'm not doing everything suggested because this team is not just one I want to make perfect. Otherwise I'd use every perfect Pokemon out there, use every suggestion, and end up with mush. I take a bit from each suggestion to make things fair.
    I understand not taking every suggestion but you should at least CONSIDER them.

    SD = Specially Defensive? And, what? I don't really understand. My Scizor? Or one against me? I've killed Scizors before.
    Swords Dance. It does horrific damage to you. Only Ninetales has any chance at stopping it and only at high HP.

    Your opponent was awful. He used Bug Bite Forretress, Superpowered a Sub Rotom W, and tried to set up Calm Minds vs a Ninetales. Why did you Solarbeam the Alakazam?

    He doesn't fail. Who cares if I lose a Swords Dance due to U-Turn? If he's still alive, and dealt damage, and just dealt damage on his exit ... seems successful to me.
    I never said anything about U-turn + Swords Dance. That works fine.

    But you run Speed EVs to outpace defensive Heatran yet no move to touch it. You run Swords Dance with minimal bulk, speed, and try to do so without Life Orb. Your U-turns are weak and without Superpower checks like Heatran and Magnezone become hard counters.

    No, Specially, Defensive, Ninetails. Neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. LOL - It just doesn't work here. Look again at the updated move-pools.

    Also ~ http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9588041
    Ok here are the issues with that log.

    1) Your opponent uses Quick Claw Tyranitar.
    2) Your opponent left Tyranitar in on Scizor and Earthquaked it.
    3) They kept Tyranitar in on +2 Scizor, losing the weather war.
    4) In the face of a potential Swords Dance Scizor sweep they decided it was worth it to ignore logic and blindly use Spikes.
    5) You U-turned on Deoxys D when you could have Swords Danced more and swept him.
    6) Your opponent sent Cloyster in on NINETALES.
    7) They used Hydro Pump in the sun instead of Rock Blast against Ninetales.
    8) You Hypnosised Cloyster instead of killing it. You missed. If they weren't awful and used Shell Smash you might have been in trouble.
    9) The second Hypnosis hits, and you ignore any risk of Shell Smash sweep or him waking up and decide to Nasty Plot.
    10) Their Scizor uses Bullet Punch on your Paralyzed Ninetales. Literally any other move it could run would out-damage that.


    I checked your PS account. You have about a 33% win ratio and your leaderboard score is around 1100. For every game you win you lose two more. Don't you want to improve? I consider a team a failure and abandon it if I can't get better than a 75% win rate and pass 1800.

    If I was to use your team I'm pretty sure I would make it look like this -

        Spoiler:- team:


    I would probably end up dropping Scizor for Dragonite or Volcarona or something.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvet
    I checked your PS account. You have about a 33% win ratio and your leaderboard score is around 1100. For every game you win you lose two more. Don't you want to improve? I consider a team a failure and abandon it if I can't get better than a 75% win rate and pass 1800.
    This means nothing to me. It's opinion and has nothing to do with a single team.

    Ok here are the issues with that log.

    1) Your opponent uses Quick Claw Tyranitar.
    2) Your opponent left Tyranitar in on Scizor and Earthquaked it.
    3) They kept Tyranitar in on +2 Scizor, losing the weather war.
    4) In the face of a potential Swords Dance Scizor sweep they decided it was worth it to ignore logic and blindly use Spikes.
    5) You U-turned on Deoxys D when you could have Swords Danced more and swept him.
    6) Your opponent sent Cloyster in on NINETALES.
    7) They used Hydro Pump in the sun instead of Rock Blast against Ninetales.
    8) You Hypnosised Cloyster instead of killing it. You missed. If they weren't awful and used Shell Smash you might have been in trouble.
    9) The second Hypnosis hits, and you ignore any risk of Shell Smash sweep or him waking up and decide to Nasty Plot.
    10) Their Scizor uses Bullet Punch on your Paralyzed Ninetales. Literally any other move it could run would out-damage that.
    Quick Claw Ttar isn't bad. 2 is valid. 3 is not really valid. Ttar could kill Scizor with HP or with a crit. 4 makes no sense because spikes did a lot of damage to my team. U-Turn killed Deoxys. Cloyster would've killed me if it had the speed. Hydro Pump would've finished me.Cloyster + ShellSmash isn't the only good usage of Cloyster. 9 - isn't that excactly what you wanted earlier with Deoxys??? 10 is valid.

    Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - U-turn
    - Roost

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
    Rash Nature
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Giga Drain
    - Earthquake
    - Growth

    Victini @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Bolt Strike
    - V-create
    - U-turn
    - Brick Break

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Volt Switch
    - Gyro Ball

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    IVs: 26 HP
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reversal
    - Substitute
    That's a good team, but it's not my team. I don't like switching more than one Pokemon b/c I feel it changes my original thoughts too much.

    Uhh, sorry but it still applies. The only differences are now Rotom W caps at 30% with Hydro Pump in sun and Cloyster's damage output against it is basically nothing. Venusaur DOES NOT COUNTER HEATRAN, especially Modest Venusaur with no attack EVs. You say you OHKO Heatran? You only do with a crit.
    My fault. I didn't update Venusaur's stats, only that one move. I will later. Gotta finish homework. ;D

    Your opponent was awful. He used Bug Bite Forretress, Superpowered a Sub Rotom W, and tried to set up Calm Minds vs a Ninetales. Why did you Solarbeam the Alakazam?
    Ninetails only has Solarbeam and Flamethrower for its offense. Solarbeam is more powerful, so it makes sense to Solarbeam it.

    Swords Dance. It does horrific damage to you. Only Ninetales has any chance at stopping it and only at high HP.
    I still don't really understand. SD has no recoil. And, SD isn't on my Ninetails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter of Charizard
    All of the stats no longer apply because Venusaur OHKOs Heatran w/ Earthquake. Chlorophyll make him too fast for Heatran to do anything. Though, he often has an air ballon, Scizor comes and Bullet Punches him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest
    Uhh, sorry but it still applies. The only differences are now Rotom W caps at 30% with Hydro Pump in sun and Cloyster's damage output against it is basically nothing. Venusaur DOES NOT COUNTER HEATRAN, especially Modest Venusaur with no attack EVs. You say you OHKO Heatran? You only do with a crit.

    0- Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 208-248 (54.02 - 64.41%)

    Meanwhile Lava Plume in the Sun OHKOs with Rocks. Also you can not switch in while Heatran switches in for free against 4/6 of your Pokemon.
    What does Rotom have to do w/ my quote? He has Discharge too, so that means nothing.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter of Charizard View Post
    This means nothing to me. It's opinion and has nothing to do with a single team.Quick Claw Ttar isn't bad. 2 is valid. 3 is not really valid. Ttar could kill Scizor with HP or with a crit. 4 makes no sense because spikes did a lot of damage to my team. U-Turn killed Deoxys. Cloyster would've killed me if it had the speed. Hydro Pump would've finished me.Cloyster + ShellSmash isn't the only good usage of Cloyster. 9 - isn't that excactly what you wanted earlier with Deoxys??? 10 is valid.That's a good team, but it's not my team. I don't like switching more than one Pokemon b/c I feel it changes my original thoughts too much.My fault. I didn't update Venusaur's stats, only that one move. I will later. Gotta finish homework. ;DNinetails only has Solarbeam and Flamethrower for its offense. Solarbeam is more powerful, so it makes sense to Solarbeam it. I still don't really understand. SD has no recoil. And, SD isn't on my Ninetails.What does Rotom have to do w/ my quote? He has Discharge too, so that means nothing.
    He is saying after one SD, your whole team is basically gone.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
    Paper Trail.

  17. #17
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    Ok, I give up. You aren't going to listen to anything I say so I'm not going to waste any more time on this team. Despite multiple people giving you some of the best rates I have seen in a while you ignored them all and made only 3 minor edits, all of which weren't even good. You can listen to what the more experienced players say and vastly improve your team, or you can listen to yourself and never get any better.

    btw if you replace Rotom W with Gengar then Specially Defensive Heatran goes from an enormous threat to a 6-0. But you have Venusaur to "counter" it so you should do fine. ^_^ .........

  18. #18
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    RAWR I 6KHO EAZY MASH.

    But seriously dude listen to Blue Harvest, she is one of the best players to grace this craphole known as serebii comp. Her advice is good. It's foolish not to take it.

  19. #19
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    Hey.

    I suggest you replace Brightpowder for Leftovers on Cloyster, because you know, it's pretty damn hard using something which is banned in standard play. ^_^

    Also, it would be in your best interest to listen to Blue Harvest as well as the other raters in this thread. ^_^

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makeveli
    craphole known as serebii comp
    :0

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest
    btw if you replace Rotom W with Gengar then Specially Defensive Heatran goes from an enormous threat to a 6-0. But you have Venusaur to "counter" it so you should do fine. ^_^ .........
    Yes, I do have Venusaur to counter. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40
    He is saying after one SD, your whole team is basically gone.
    Oooooooohh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest
    Ok, I give up. You aren't going to listen to anything I say so I'm not going to waste any more time on this team. Despite multiple people giving you some of the best rates I have seen in a while you ignored them all and made only 3 minor edits, all of which weren't even good. You can listen to what the more experienced players say and vastly improve your team, or you can listen to yourself and never get any better.
    Geez, sorry. First change- I'll try Dugtrio in for Meta.

    EDIT: Actually, I'm just going to make your team. I really dont care if it ends up terribly. Its better to take advice rather than to throw all this in the trash. XD I'm makindg EXCACTLY ur plans. Like, why talk with a master if you don't use what they said? LOL. Thank you 4 da' rates!
    Last edited by Chapter; 12th February 2013 at 1:12 PM.


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    You know what? I was about to rate this team, but as you keep flaming every other rater, I'm going to avoid that. Really, as everyone keeps saying, Swords Dance Scizor and Heatran rape this team. Also, you may win, but on Showdown, you go up against opponents with a similar rating. I other words, if you lose a lot, you will go up against the same idiots who can't play pokemon again and again. Keep that in mind.......

    @Blue Harvest- 75% win ratio? Gosh, that's harsh. You must make the top 100 quite often if that is your standards. I keep hanging around the 1550 range with about a 50-60% win ratio if I'm lucky(most of it through trolling alone, seriously, did you see my troll team?). Do you mind if you rate my sun team or any of my other teams? I hardly get any rates....

    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...ent-rage-quit!
    Last edited by silverangel; 11th February 2013 at 11:36 PM.
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  22. #22
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    Ooooohhhhhhhhhhh ... Kay? Not flaming at all. And, in my previous post, I agreed to everything Blue Harvest said at the bottom of it. I rated your team ... Though you posted on my RMT and didn't rate, just kind of mini-moded pretty much. So that wasn't fun.

    Anyways, Blue Harvest your team (for me) is amazing! LOL - I should've listened to you from the start! Thank you soooooooooooo much!!! And, I have a war in my guild right now, and as a co-leader this team will be amazing! XD XD Thank you!


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverangel View Post
    You know what? I was about to rate this team, but as you keep flaming every other rater, I'm going to avoid that. Really, as everyone keeps saying, Swords Dance Scizor and Heatran rape this team. Also, you may win, but on Showdown, you go up against opponents with a similar rating. I other words, if you lose a lot, you will go up against the same idiots who can't play pokemon again and again. Keep that in mind.......

    @Blue Harvest- 75% win ratio? Gosh, that's harsh. You must make the top 100 quite often if that is your standards. I keep hanging around the 1550 range with about a 50-60% win ratio if I'm lucky(most of it through trolling alone, seriously, did you see my troll team?). Do you mind if you rate my sun team or any of my other teams? I hardly get any rates....

    http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...ent-rage-quit!
    He never flamed anyone, and please don't advertise your team on other peoples threads. I'll rate your team eventually!

    Glad the changes worked out for you CoC!

  24. #24
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    Okay then, here's my rate.

    Focus Sash Ninetales isn't a very good option, as Heatran leads are very common (I see them quite often, actually, mainly to scare off Ferrothorn. I even used a Heatran lead in my stall team.) and Ninetales can't do anything to them. I used a SubDisable set purely for troll reasons. However, this set seems good enough.

    I actually got nothing for Scizor. Swords Dance Scizor has also worked fine for me. However, I used Life Orb over Leftovers for the extra power. As if Scizor is going to survive a fire type hit...

    Leech Seed and Sleep Powder on the same set? I'd go for Growth/Sleep Powder/Earthquake/Giga Drain to allow Venusaur to set up and sweep. At this point, no one can stop it, save for Choice Scarf Latios, Mamoswine, and Weavile.

    To take some weight off of Ninetales's chest, why not use Sunny Day over Substitute on Rotom Wash? You can annoy Politoed and Tyrannitar like this. Also, use Volt Switch over Discharge.

    Sorry, but Jirachi is almost better in every way compared to Metagross. Better speed, movepool, and arguably ability helps it a lot. Doom Desire, while unreliable, can dissuade a Tyrannitar from switching in on Ninetales. It's wish-passing ability also helps a lot in a team that doesn't have much healing. It can even provide Stealth Rock for you. I would use a set with Stealth Rock/Iron Head/Elemental Punch/Healing Wish. Healing Wish is a great asset to the team. Can you imagine the opponent's face when they think they won the weather war and you having a 1HP, paralyzed Ninetales in the bench, only to see Jirachi using Healing Wish to completely restore Ninetales, HP, status, and all, and Ninetales doesn't even have to take entry hazard damage until it is fully healed!

    You need Shell Smash Cloyster, period. Also, no Toxic Spikes, especially when your team utilizes the art of setting-up-and-bashing-opponents-till-they-faint. The residual damage won't do much for them. As you already have two set-up sweepers, why not a revenge killer. A Choice Scarf Starmie with Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Psyshock/Rapid Spin could help out the team a lot.


    Your main threats are Heatran and Swords Dance Scizor. I think a Zoroark can counter both, but not when Scizor is at +2. However, Zoroark's Focus Blast and Flamethrower can take both of them. Even better is that you can masquerade Zoroark as another one of your pokemon. Take Venusaur for example. The guy is taken down by Choice Scarf Latios. Send in Venusaur, the opponent switches in Latios, and bang, Latios is Sucker Punched to the afterlife. You could also disguise Zoroark as Ninetales when the sun is up. When Tyrannitar switches in, boom, Focus Blast to the face. I know you might not like Zoroark, but it might work out for you. It's hard to use, but it can play mind games on your opponents.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by silverangel; 12th February 2013 at 9:01 PM.
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  25. #25
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    Thanks very much. I don't prepare for SD Scizor because of Ninetails. Though, if she dies, I have to be prepared for a swepp. Venusaur used to have HPFire, but that was replaced by EQ. I like your Zoroark idea, but Scizor will probably have U-Turn or BugBite. Then of cousre, Sunny Day Rotom could work. I am thinking that Discharge is better because of his SubSplit thing. Though, I don't have him on the original team. Not the new one.


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