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Thread: Your stance on Goals?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Well, even though it wasn't stated, it wouldn't be surprising. She a Champion after all.


    Being a Dragon Master is just having one Dragon though, there's no need for more than one. You can be a Dragon Master with a Deino, Dratini or anything.
    OMG Ash is almost a dragon master! After all he already has half the requirements down!

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    You know I'm not so sure about a Dragon Master is only having one Dragon to be half a master. :/ Like that's too vague, however if you devote yourself to dragons and have extensive knowledge and own and train at least one dragon you could become one. But I don't even know what Dragon Masters do...can they earn money from that? .-.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00poke_maniac View Post
    You know I'm not so sure about a Dragon Master is only having one Dragon to be half a master. :/ Like that's too vague, however if you devote yourself to dragons and have extensive knowledge and own and train at least one dragon you could become one. But I don't even know what Dragon Masters do...can they earn money from that? .-.
    Says it only takes one Dragon to be a Dragon Master. So yeah. Kinda weird, but that's Pokemon for ya. Though Georgia did call Iris out on not having more Dragons in their first confrontation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    OMG Ash is almost a dragon master! After all he already has half the requirements down!
    Okay, no. Cynthia is not a Dragon Master, that's someone who can apparently have an extremely emotional connection to Dragon Pokemon. Almost like a power itself, basically it's like N's ability to understand Pokemon only nerfed to only understand Dragons. I went back and watched the Dragon Village episode and it's apparently something Iris, the Village Elder, and Drayden specifically have. Cynthia never displayed such a characteristic thus is not a Dragon Master. The only powers Ash has is his ability to use Aura :P May also has her People of the Water Powers from the Manaphy movie
    Last edited by Doryuzu; 27th February 2013 at 2:16 AM.

  4. #29
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    So now its limited only to those with the dragon magic. Good to know a small village in Unova holds the monopoly on dragon masters.

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    Okay, no. Cynthia is not a Dragon Master, that's someone who can apparently have an extremely emotional connection to Dragon Pokemon. Almost like a power itself, basically it's like N's ability to understand Pokemon only nerfed to only understand Dragons. I went back and watched the Dragon Village episode and it's apparently something Iris, the Village Elder, and Drayden specifically have. Cynthia never displayed such a characteristic thus is not a Dragon Master. The only powers Ash has is his ability to use Aura :P May also has her People of the Water Powers from the Manaphy movie
    What if I loved Dragons and wanted to be a Dragon master?

    I don't think it takes a power, it takes lurv and understanding. IMO, you can understand anything just by monitoring their behavior by doing focal/scan Pokemon sampling to understand them just as good. Cynthia isn't a Dragon Master because she doesn't want to be. Her Dragon is strong, yes but she doesn't devote herself to understanding one type. You could compare it to a Biologist and a Primatologist, I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00poke_maniac View Post
    What if I loved Dragons and wanted to be a Dragon master?

    I don't think it takes a power, it takes lurv and understanding. IMO, you can understand anything just by monitoring their behavior by doing focal/scan Pokemon sampling to understand them just as good. Cynthia isn't a Dragon Master because she doesn't want to be. Her Dragon is strong, yes but she doesn't devote herself to understanding one type. You could compare it to a Biologist and a Primatologist, I guess.
    That's an interesting take on things. I would probably have to go back and watch "The Path to Becoming a Dragon Master" from earlier BW, my mind's a little fuzzy. When it comes to the Dragon-Hearting part though anyone can try to be one, some just have better "potential" to do this than others. In other words the Village Elder was calling Iris a prodigy in a way. Shannon, her friend, had better "potential" for breeding. I must have misunderstand ^^;; So it's not really a power, just a very hard-to-learn ability that some have to the potential to hone and foster if they choose to. N fine-tuned his ability to understand Pokemon because of Ghetsis's influence, plus iirc,(don't quote me on this) it was hinted N was a descendant of the King of Unova who could understand Pokemon. Being abused and forced to watch Pokemon be hurt at a young age amplified this natural talent. Iris's is more so a nerfed version since it's exclusive to Dragons and has not been refined in the same vain. Plus Iris has that talent in the game as well which is why she was such a exceptional trainer in-game to Drayden.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    So now its limited only to those with the dragon magic. Good to know a small village in Unova holds the monopoly on dragon masters.
    Huh, what are you talking about? Drayden isn't from the Dragon Village.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spin Attaxx View Post
    I guess it may not look so bad when it's YOU who goes through all those retcons and failures pursuing what is ultimately a fruitless goal. At least then you're not part of an audience getting pissed off at stupidity yet still watches for some reason.
    The difference is that he's actually having the time of his life while doing it. It's an endless circle of FUN.
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  8. #33
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    I don't have anything against goals. But characters who aren't really given anything into persuing that goal is something I never enjoyed.

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    I prefer more solid goals, like Top Coordinator - win a Grand Festival to more vague goals, eg. Water Master / Dragon Master. I know it has been specified that Dragon Master = understanding a dragon, but there's no like, tests or anything to show that you truly understand dragons. I mean, I can just go pick up a frowny Deino and say it's hungry. Or a happy Dratini and say, it really likes its trainer! There's no solid tests / competitions or anything, but I have to agree that Dragon Master goals are much more defined than Misty's Water Master Goal (Don't quote me on that).

    Though, I don't really mind vague goals as long as it is properly developed and isn't crammed into a tiny amount of time. I mean, take Iris. I feel that during BW Iris is just liek lolololol i'm walking with this kibago in my hair on my way to bec0m3 a dr@g0n m@st3r with only one dragon type who gets lost a lot! Then BW2 came and it feels really... crammed I guess. She gets Dragonite, her first strong dragon. Kibago gets development vs Cynthia's Garchomp. Dragonite beats two ice type. Iris's Dragon Master goal is reexplored vs Shaga. To me, I think that Iris could've caught a 'psuedo-Dragonite' during her stay in BW and evolve it during BW2. No offense to you all Iris-fans, but it feels to me that the writers are trying to cram Iris's Dragon Master Goal into a short period of time so when they write her off the show, she will have something to brag about. I no likez. That's why I prefer contests. It's progressive. 1 ribbon, 1 ribbon, 1 ribbon, 1 ribbon, 1 ribbon, Grand Festival!

    Those are just my personal stances. Feel free to disagree ~

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    So far the Coordinators seem to have the best goal IMO. They know what they need to do they just haven't done it yet and unlike Ash, I don't think it would take them years to obtain their goal because they just need to win a GF to become a Top Coordinator and considering how close the two girls got it's only a matter of time.

    Vague goals IMO are not good goals. I would assume Misty's Water Pokemon Master thing would be to raise a bunch of Water Pokemon and know everything about them and overcome their weaknesses? I'm not sure. Iris's whole understand a Dragon's heart thing...yeah. Does she need to dissect a Dragon, open it up and see it's heart to understand it's feelings? Nah I'm kidding there. Ash has the most vague goal and IMO it's the worst one because it's never ending and is a cheap ploy to keep him on the show forever. Brock's doctor goal is fine for him since it fits and I would say his goal is pretty much done. He's a Pokemon doctor and dropped his Breeder goal. Probably cause the writers themselves didn't know where they were going with it. I don't know enough about Cilan's goal to make a comment.

    I would say Max, May, and Dawn's goals are the most clear. Misty's is in the middle, I don't think it's as vague as most believe it. Brock and Tracey feel done to me, unless Brock goes back to being a breeder. Iris and Ash are vague. Iris is only vague to me because I don't know much about her goal and Ash's is just a ploy to keep him on the show. Pokemon Master doesn't even feel like a goal to me anymore, at least not one worth watching over 600 episodes for.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    Pokemon Master doesn't even feel like a goal to me anymore, at least not one worth watching over 600 episodes for.
    That's why you don't watch it for the goal, it's all the fun stuff on the way. It is just an excuse to have them journey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohanator View Post
    That's why you don't watch it for the goal, it's all the fun stuff on the way. It is just an excuse to have them journey.
    Yes, Pokemon is a show about the journey not the destination(goal) at the end of the day. That's one of the things I enjoy vastly about the anime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Yes, Pokemon is a show about the journey not the destination(goal) at the end of the day. That's one of the things I enjoy vastly about the anime.
    Differnet strokes for different folks, Pokemon is a show indeed about the destination but it's definately not one for people looking for any character fulfillment, since the character never accomplish their goals, therefore feel imcomplete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    Differnet strokes for different folks, Pokemon is a show indeed about the destination but it's definately not one for people looking for any character fulfillment, since the character never accomplish their goals, therefore feel imcomplete.
    Agreed. It's why I stopped caring about Ash's development, and his goal. Of all the things I'm looking forward to in the new region, I feel totally indifferent to Ash. I wish they'd push him in the background but that won't happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    Differnet strokes for different folks, Pokemon is a show indeed about the destination but it's definately not one for people looking for any character fulfillment, since the character never accomplish their goals, therefore feel imcomplete.
    Honestly, maybe if Pokemon was a deeper show with a more consistent plot I'd agreed. It isn't a very deep show on that side of the spectrum however, it's that type of show that relies on new places, new faces, and speedy attention-grabbing plot-lines. Honestly, I don't like stories to be completely closed. It leave no room for the imagination. I like having some sort of creative freedom with the series I get into. I don't mind Iris becoming a Dragon Master eventually because she still would have her other goal/career as the Opelucid Gym Leader and plus Dragon Masters aren't the end-all be-all. I don't mind the current formula at all and if you watch this show just to see a character accomplish their goal your buying into a fool's game tbh. We should all know by now Pokemon isn't that type of show. I don't think Ash will be achieving simple as, what I assume to be, extravagant as being a Pokemon Master. Hell, Iris is the first person with a "master" goal that's actually reachable. Max didn't accomplish his goal and might now ever, his goal was simply to get his first Pokemon and start a journey. Brock jumped from Breeder to Doctor in the second-to-last episode of DP. Gary abandoned that whole trainer thing to be something more realistic and normal like a professor. People change and it's natural, goals are hardly ever achieved in this show anyway. Zoey is the one and only long term person to actually achieve her goal iirc.

  16. #41
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    I really don't care much for Ash's overall development even though I do actually love the guy and don't wanna see him go. If they do something deeper with him then sure I'll welcome it but right now I just wanna see him do his thing, have more battles and evolve/get more Pokes and stay as his enthusiastic self. If I wanna see something deep I'll go watch something deep. Pokemon is like positiveness medication for me lol. It really helps sometimes so I'm grateful for it for what it is.
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    So you want Ash to remain his bland, boring self from now until the end of time?
    Shokotan: "And then, in Extremespeed Genesect: The Awakening of Mewtwo, we meet another Mewtwo!"
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    Good for you Yuyama. Too bad you've singlehandedly torpedoed any lingering respect I and anyone else had for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spin Attaxx View Post
    So you want Ash to remain his bland, boring self from now until the end of time?
    He's not boring to me. He's not really interesting either, he's just up lifting to watch. Him going KIMI NI KIMETA ect in Rica's awesome voice is my sh*t right there <333 Again, I don't watch Pokemon for anything deep. It's just fun.
    Last edited by Rohanator; 1st March 2013 at 5:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohanator View Post
    He's not boring to me. He's not really interesting either, he's just up lifting to watch. Him going KIMI NI KIMETA ect in Rica's awesome voice is my sh*t right there <333 Again, I don't watch Pokemon for anything deep. It's just fun.
    Yep, that's Ash for you. He's a very nice character in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaMilotic View Post
    Yeah. I'd say it also involves doing well in tournaments like the Alto Mare Water Race, the Catch-A-Seaking Competition and the Whirl Cup, especially the Whirl Cup has a lot of prestige involved. Battling with Water Pokemon is probably most important, but some other skills like fishing and riding Water Pokemon matter too.
    Winning the Whirl Cup indeed does give you recognition. Given all your examples of what one must do, it's not really a vague goal once you think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel~ View Post
    Winning the Whirl Cup indeed does give you recognition. Given all your examples of what one must do, it's not really a vague goal once you think about it.
    I think we're looking more for an answer of what specifically it takes to become a Water Pokemon Master. The steps toward it, not assumptions. Things that were stated that must be done to achievement that goal. It was really vague, then again it was OS.

  22. #47
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    Personally i find having goal gives character more texture to his own story and background, allowing to grow him forward in easier and more substantial way.

    But that's not to say how such thing is necessary, and to presume how goal is required to justify someone existence would be big understatement to make.
    Because there are various other desires characters may have going for them beside only their personal main dreams, still being vital to story.

    For example Max didn't had goal but he was still valuable asset to team helping cast to navigate way toward next gyms or help them when they got lost, gave advices about gym leaders and battle strategies as well bailing group out from sometime dangerous situations. Brock aside from breeder dream wanted to travel and see more of world , get chance to experience new places and pokemon from first hand and enrich his roaster with new captures.
    Same applies to Misty who aside from pursuing water career wanted to explore new regions, have fun with friends by learning more about various types of pokemon, new innovative ways of battling and run away from sisters shadow wanting to make name for herself.

    So its not like goal is the only thing which defines character and fills him with purpose, with this show being more about journey rather than destination.

    But anyhow so far we had two definition of goals in pokemon. Ones being clearly explained and defined like goal of becoming top coordinator knowing what kind of competitions it involve and whats needed to do to become one(such as winning GF).

    Along with more unclear ones such as becoming dragon or water master, S class connoisseur etc which defined what they mean explaining each term abit, but lacked proper explanation and visibly defined way through which you can build up and accomplish such thing.

    However ill be fair in here. If there is one positive aspect unexplored careers have in certain situations is ability to bring that dash of mystery to it allowing writers to take it through several fresh directions making them more unpredictable/exciting in sense of not knowing what to expect next. Keeping you in suspension. As opposite to formulaic paradigm fully explored goals has taking away from originality and excitement due to being set up what structure and procedure needs to be followed.

    Each goal has its pros and cons depending how you look at it.

    p.s. Regarding Misty water master career im not sure why people act like its unknown what this goal means.

    It was established in original series how Misty goal involves becoming strongest water trainer in world being on pair with E4 members. Who are best mono trainers often being labeled as one type masters, with Misty showing clear fascination over Lorelei being her idol. Also judging by wording from sea priestess Maya title of water master means becoming water pokemon expert which has power to understand sea creatures and use them to full potential,being recognized and respected among all water trainers worldwide. For same reason Whirl Cup was introduced as one of such competitions where you can gain more experience,make step forward and prove yourself to others being directly linked with water master thing serving as one of benchmarks through which you come closer toward such title.

    In addition it was established with Cilan connoisseur dream how there exist rankings for those which identify compatibility between trainer and his pokemon. C being lowest, while S highest class connoisseur can achieve making you top expert in fiekd of determining accordance and level of harmony there can exist between humans and their pokemon partners.

    As such we also know judging by Cabernet history how there exists school where you can become certified connoisseur and likely special tasks /tests you need to pass getting estimated by other top class craftsman in this field to determine if you are good enough to advance on next level.

    In nutshell we do know what Misty water master goal or Cilan S class connoisseurs dreams mean, being established aim they are looking for. We only don't know full picture of procedure, path you need to follow to accomplish this dreams.
    Sam applies to Brock breeding career.
    Arguably Misty had slightly better defined goal than rest of crew with vague goals, because with water tournament it was set up how there exists specific tasks which serve as way to rank up as trainer.

    Not making them any more vague imo than Ash never ending pokemon master quest still not knowing what it involves aside from winning league and battling E4. Iris dragon master goal which lack proper explanation, clean-cut direction she needs to follow to earn right to gain title of master. Etc, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    I think we're looking more for an answer of what specifically it takes to become a Water Pokemon Master. The steps toward it, not assumptions. Things that were stated that must be done to achievement that goal. It was really vague, then again it was OS.
    During Whirl islands it was clearly stated how winner of tourney gets title "Alpha Omega of water types"being stated by prof. Elm and later sea priestess Maya how "water heroes"(in japanese convoluted form of water master) in past were called by that name, being obviously one of steps someone needs to enter and fulfill to gain that tile. Wining one tournament wont make you master, but it is one of steps which brings you closer, so entering water tournaments like Whirl Cup showed to be directly connected with Misty dream.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    During Whirl islands it was clearly stated how winner of tourney gets title "Alpha Omega of water types"being stated by prof. Elm and later sea priestess Maya how "water heroes"(in japanese convoluted form of water master) in past were called by that name, being obviously one of steps someone needs to enter and fulfill to gain that tile. Wining one tournament wont make you master, but it is one of steps which brings you closer, so entering water tournaments like Whirl Cup showed to be directly connected with Misty dream.
    "obviously one of steps" =//=Being stated as a a step toward the goal. No vagueness, just pure fact please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    "obviously one of steps" =//=Being stated as a a step toward the goal. No vagueness, just pure fact please.
    Its common sense. In "Around the Whirlpool" Misty dreams of becoming water master, than conviniently prof. Elm informs them how there exists Whirl Cup explaining how winner becomes "Alpha omega"(beggining and end to water pokemon). Something Misty eagerly accepts subscribing still fantasizing about becoming master of water pokemon.

    Just to hear more about this in "Dueling Heroes"when sea priest Maya talks about water pokemon expert, "sea heroes" (Japanese water masters)which knew ins and outs of water types with title winner obtains in Whirl Cup being convoluted form of water pokemon master , one of steps they in past obtained before fulfilling this dream.

    Whirl Cup was directly connected with Misty water master career since it dug deeper into that mentioning whole water master thing and expertize about water types previous water experts used to have.
    While admittedly whole procedure was vague , it also had connections with Misty dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Its common sense.
    Again, I want it actually stated what it takes to be a Water Pokemon Master, not left up to assumptions. Stated. Otherwise it's vague and is just assumptions and speculation.

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