Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Pokemon Fixing: The unwritten rule

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    8

    Default Pokemon Fixing: The unwritten rule

    Lots of Pokemon come with problems... movepools grow with generations thus change isn't uncommon even if some Pokemon still seem to get the short end of the stick each new game (I'm looking at you Flareon). Other pokemon suffer statistically (Sunflora, Seaking, almost every Bug Pokemon...) And there is this unwritten rule that a Pokemon's stats can't be changed once their written. Now while some of those CAN still evolve like Mawile, Lumineon, and Ledian which would possibly fix their problems, but why is it a rule that Gamefreak can't just fix their stats. I mean half of Generation 4 was built of evolutions to older Pokemon but wouldn't it just be easier to alter stats rather than design 40 different evolutions?

    Some others like Sunflora and Delcatty can't because they already evolved through an item (Another unwritten rule that a pokemon that evolves with a stone can't evolve again). Thus the only thing that could help them is a stat change.

    What I'm slowly trying to ask... is it a bad idea to alter stats? Is anyone for or against that? Is Gamefreak afraid to do that kind of change?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    Lots of Pokemon come with problems... movepools grow with generations thus change isn't uncommon even if some Pokemon still seem to get the short end of the stick each new game (I'm looking at you Flareon). Other pokemon suffer statistically (Sunflora, Seaking, almost every Bug Pokemon...) And there is this unwritten rule that a Pokemon's stats can't be changed once their written. Now while some of those CAN still evolve like Mawile, Lumineon, and Ledian which would possibly fix their problems, but why is it a rule that Gamefreak can't just fix their stats. I mean half of Generation 4 was built of evolutions to older Pokemon but wouldn't it just be easier to alter stats rather than design 40 different evolutions?

    Some others like Sunflora and Delcatty can't because they already evolved through an item (Another unwritten rule that a pokemon that evolves with a stone can't evolve again). Thus the only thing that could help them is a stat change.

    What I'm slowly trying to ask... is it a bad idea to alter stats? Is anyone for or against that? Is Gamefreak afraid to do that kind of change?
    Can't Porygon evolve into Porygon 2 when traded with a certain item, then into Porygon Z with a different item?


    I must say, I am 110% against this action, I mean, quoting Wikipedia, '' A world of free knowledge will be lost ''. I say screw SOPA and PIPA, and all who agrees with me, sig this! We all detest the bill and will fight for the freedom of the Internet!

    This is Bidoof. Many people loathe it with their lives. If you are of the few people who love this little beaver, put this in your sig. Started by Warrior Scolipede

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wherever the adventure lies
    Posts
    10,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Can't Porygon evolve into Porygon 2 when traded with a certain item, then into Porygon Z with a different item?
    That is true, but IIRC, there isn't a single Pokemon in existence that can evolve again after evolving with an evolutionary stone.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Can't Porygon evolve into Porygon 2 when traded with a certain item, then into Porygon Z with a different item?
    That it can.

    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    What I'm slowly trying to ask... is it a bad idea to alter stats? Is anyone for or against that? Is Gamefreak afraid to do that kind of change?
    Yes, it is a bad idea because it's simply too complicated. After all, which Pokemon do you raise the stats of? And how much? It's just too arbitrary, hence why Game Freak has never altered any Pokemon's base stats (to my knowledge), other than when the Special stat was split into Special Attack and Special Defense during the transition from Gen 1 to Gen 2. Some Pokemon are bound to be stronger/weaker than others, which leaves us with a bunch of utterly useless Pokemon. Sad but true.
    Competitive/IGRMT Mod and one of the writers for the PotW.

    I make no claim of being perfect or always right. Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    From the land down under...
    Posts
    7,099

    Default

    I imagine one problem is that if you go about changing the base stats of a Pokemon, you'd need to account for that when one transfers the Pokemon from the previous generation. That'd require extra coding, or maybe just a ban on being able to transfer that Pokemon (which wouldn't be really appreciated by anyone). If they just let the transferred Pokemon come in as-it-was as well, that's another catch they need to look for when say checking for legit Pokemon used in wifi... and as it's all database checking I am not sure how simple or hard that may be.

    At any rate, if they fix something then it'll beg the question of 'why not fix/nerf ____'? Might as well just go with how it is. Every gen they introduce new Pokemon that are both good at battling and others not so much after all, so I don't think it's so much in their interest beyond abilities/moveset changeups.

    A parody of the Pokemon Colosseum game, full of pastries and Miror B.
    Completed. Four times winner of Best Comedy/Funniest Fic.

    The BBS Forums! Join in!
    Gain achievements for activity on forums & the games!

    Tied to this Pokemon Magazine! Looking for contributors - check it out!
    Why should you? Well, Wynaut?
    Current article: Dude, where's my Game Corner? Learn why you can't gamble in ORAS. =(
    Avatar by minty-fivestar on DA, with edited background/cropping. Fic banner by cieux.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    That is true, but IIRC, there isn't a single Pokemon in existence that can evolve again after evolving with an evolutionary stone.
    Well there's a first for everything, I guess.


    I must say, I am 110% against this action, I mean, quoting Wikipedia, '' A world of free knowledge will be lost ''. I say screw SOPA and PIPA, and all who agrees with me, sig this! We all detest the bill and will fight for the freedom of the Internet!

    This is Bidoof. Many people loathe it with their lives. If you are of the few people who love this little beaver, put this in your sig. Started by Warrior Scolipede

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Route 123, looking for Celebi
    Posts
    1,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandbill View Post
    I imagine one problem is that if you go about changing the base stats of a Pokemon, you'd need to account for that when one transfers the Pokemon from the previous generation. That'd require extra coding, or maybe just a ban on being able to transfer that Pokemon (which wouldn't be really appreciated by anyone). If they just let the transferred Pokemon come in as-it-was as well, that's another catch they need to look for when say checking for legit Pokemon used in wifi... and as it's all database checking I am not sure how simple or hard that may be.

    At any rate, if they fix something then it'll beg the question of 'why not fix/nerf ____'? Might as well just go with how it is. Every gen they introduce new Pokemon that are both good at battling and others not so much after all, so I don't think it's so much in their interest beyond abilities/moveset changeups.
    Actually, that's not much of a problem at all. A Pokemon's actual stats are erased when it's dumped into the box to save memory and recalculated based on its base stats, EVs, IVs, nature, and whatever else there is when it's put back in the party. That's why the box trick works, for example. All that would have to be done is to perform that recalculation during the transfer, which would happen anyway if the transferred Pokemon are sent straight to the box.


    98% of the teenage population has died smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
    Good old natural selection...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maple Valley, WA
    Posts
    1,183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandbill View Post
    I imagine one problem is that if you go about changing the base stats of a Pokemon, you'd need to account for that when one transfers the Pokemon from the previous generation. That'd require extra coding, or maybe just a ban on being able to transfer that Pokemon (which wouldn't be really appreciated by anyone).
    Not at all. In fact, it would be so simple as to be trivial.

    For example, when using the PokeTransfer in Generation V, there are several behind-the-scenes things you as a player aren't made aware of that are changed as the transfer process is finishing. You don't transfer your exact Pokemon so much as create 6 new Pokemon with identical stats. If I transfer a Pikachu with 40 EVs in Attack, knowing the move Volt Tackle, and with cured Pokerus, I don't get that same Pikachu, but a new one copy constructed from the old one's data. The game will generate a new Pikachu that has 40 EVs in Attack, knows Volt Tackle, and displays that it has cured Pokerus, so to the player it appears the same, but it's really just a copy.

    However, not all of the data has to be copied 1-to-1. For instance, if our Pikachu was caught in Viridian Forest in HGSS, my BW game doesn't list that it was caught there, it just says "Johto." The data it generates is based on the original one's data, but it isn't identical. Similarly, this process could (and does) completely ignore the stats of the Pikachu, and recalculates them using just the IVs, EVs, nature, etc. So if Pikachu's base Attack stat in HGSS was X, and in BW it's now suddenly Y, BW wouldn't care what it was in HGSS. It just knows the local value and recalculates based on that.

    Edit: Damn... ninja'd. I knew I forgot something; I meant to mention the box trick.

    From a technical standpoint, changing the base stats of a species would be so easy as to not be a concern. However from a game design standpoint, I don't agree with the need for it. Any Pokemon that is too weak to compete was either designed to be like that (Delibird, Luvdisc), receives an evolution to become better (Togekiss, Honchkrow), or was originally fine and receives an evolution to compete with the growing metagame (Mamoswine, Scizor, Rhyperior). If a Pokemon is still too weak after two evolutions (Vileplume, Porygon-Z), then either there's really no salvaging it, or it can get a split evolution (Gallade).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wherever the adventure lies
    Posts
    10,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Well there's a first for everything, I guess.
    I think the problem with that is that most Pokemon that evolve by evolution stone stop learning moves. There are exceptions, however (off the top of my head, Ninetales, Gallade and Froslass), and in those cases I can see those Pokemon evolving further, but in general, I don't think it's going to happen.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Shining in 32 skies
    Posts
    9,980

    Default

    I guess just because it'd be kinda weird to have a Pokemon with suckish stats in one generation that has good stats in the next.

    Though, I'd like to know why things like catch rates for Pokemon formerly unavailable in the wild aren't changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    I think the problem with that is that most Pokemon that evolve by evolution stone stop learning moves. There are exceptions, however (off the top of my head, Ninetales, Gallade and Froslass), and in those cases I can see those Pokemon evolving further, but in general, I don't think it's going to happen.
    The rule is that Pokemon that evolve with a Stone other than the Dawn Stone (except Eeveelutions and Sunflora; Ninetales only has Lv. 1 moves) learn few to no moves via level-up after evolution.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wherever the adventure lies
    Posts
    10,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Ninetales only has Lv. 1 moves
    Huh. I could've sworn Ninetales had a more developed moveset than that.

    Anyway, yeah. I can't really see those Pokemon getting evolutions (not that most of them need one anyway).

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    From the land down under...
    Posts
    7,099

    Default

    Alright, I stand corrected there then. Just was casting my mind back to the 2nd/3rd gen gap where they revamped the IV system between the games and no transfer method was available there. But then I never looked at the code for such things.

    A parody of the Pokemon Colosseum game, full of pastries and Miror B.
    Completed. Four times winner of Best Comedy/Funniest Fic.

    The BBS Forums! Join in!
    Gain achievements for activity on forums & the games!

    Tied to this Pokemon Magazine! Looking for contributors - check it out!
    Why should you? Well, Wynaut?
    Current article: Dude, where's my Game Corner? Learn why you can't gamble in ORAS. =(
    Avatar by minty-fivestar on DA, with edited background/cropping. Fic banner by cieux.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    688

    Default

    It would have been my preferred choice to fix old Pokemon families rather than the the addition of new evolutions, actually. Ultimately for Pokemon that can already evolve once, adding a third stage is exciting for me only because of the boosted stats, but I've rarely been a fan of cross-generation additions. The new evolutions always try too hard to be different from the original design, either to make a reference to their evolution method or because of a change in the artists' style.

    Moreoever there are some old Pokemon that just can't be fixed because they have too much deadweight in their base stats, like having equal attack and special attack but neither are outstanding, and the upper limit of BST prevents any substantial boost. Only legendary Pokemon have the luxury of higher BST and can afford to have both high Atk and Sp. Atk (which makes battling more fun when you don't know if they're specially or physically oriented). The good thing is that most of the newer Pokemon tend to have more 'specialized' stats distribution.
    The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.
    Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    786

    Default

    Some Pokemons are said to be strong and others said to be weak. As simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    Some others like Sunflora and Delcatty can't because they already evolved through an item (Another unwritten rule that a pokemon that evolves with a stone can't evolve again). Thus the only thing that could help them is a stat change.
    This isn't officially a rule, just a coincidence up to now.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    688

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical Jackal View Post
    Some Pokemons are said to be strong and others said to be weak. As simple as that.
    If GF were happy to stick with that moral of the story they could have just left the weaker ones as they are instead of trying means and ways to buff them up, with all the hidden abilities and whatsnot.
    The best evolutionary designs are brought about by a balance between change and consistency.
    Artwork by Piper Thibodeau. You can view more of her work here.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maple Valley, WA
    Posts
    1,183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobandbill View Post
    Alright, I stand corrected there then. Just was casting my mind back to the 2nd/3rd gen gap where they revamped the IV system between the games and no transfer method was available there. But then I never looked at the code for such things.
    Fundamentally changing the structure of how all stats are calculated is very different from changing a few constants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical Jackal View Post
    Some Pokemons are said to be strong and others said to be weak. As simple as that.
    If I could remove any character from the franchise's 15 years, I'd remove Karen...

    While you are technically right from a canonical standpoint, game developers tend to not like putting in fluff that nobody will actually use just for the sake of expanding the experience. Why pay someone to make something that doesn't get used? Pokemon that are weak but serve a purpose by being weak such as Rattata or Patrat they'll do that for, but stuff that nobody ends up using is wasted space on a medium where space is precious (handhelds).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •