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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

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    Default Is our Protagonist too weak?

    By this I mean Ash, he's always the underdog approximately 99.99999% of the time, struggling to defeat even the most basic of opponents. Shouldn't he at least be able to show any degree of competency?

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    He does show degrees of competency. But they usually only happen near the middle and/or at the end of the saga.

    And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by diakyu View Post
    And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    I think Toriko, Goku, Kenshiro and others would like to have a word with you. And even then, they struggle to earn their victories. I hate this notion that a badass, smart main character from the get-go is inherently bad. Like most things, it depends on the writing.

    And while a underdog character isn't bad, it's their development and growth that makes them truly good where we see them go from "fair" to "great." Sadly with Ash, it's not handled very well as others have point out. And don't get me started on BW...
    Last edited by matt0044; 2nd March 2013 at 8:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post

    And while a underdog character isn't bad, it's their development and growth that makes them truly good where we see them go from "fair" to "great." Sadly with Ash, it's not handled very well as others have point out. And don't get me started on BW...
    That's why the writers should just get rid of him. If the writers really aren't interested in advancing or developing him anymore, just write him off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    That's why the writers should just get rid of him. If the writers really aren't interested in advancing or developing him anymore, just write him off.
    Writing Ash off does no justice either.

    They'll only do the exact same with a new protagonist. Why scrap a character who's been a symbol of the anime with a tonne of development for 16+ years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post

    They'll only do the exact same with a new protagonist. Why scrap a character who's been a symbol of the anime with a tonne of development for 16+ years?
    Pikachu is far more of an icon than Ash is. You could easily give another trainer a Pikachu, it's not like Pikachu has much personality anymore anyway.

    If you're not interested in developing a character anymore, and are just going to have them fluctuate wildly in competence because of how long they've been around...it's better to write them off, and have cameo's or appearance every now and then. At least with a new protagonist, we'd know we're actually following a NEW trainer.
    Last edited by Graham Aker; 2nd March 2013 at 8:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diakyu View Post
    He does show degrees of competency. But they usually only happen near the middle and/or at the end of the saga.

    And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.
    I was a huge One Piece fan and Luffy was never really underpowered. They made him the underdog by giving him more formidable foes, not by continually reverting him to his weak self.

    Ash has been training for years and he should at least be consistently a lot stronger than he is. If they want to keep him as the underdog, give him tougher opponents. Don't continually revert him to being a newbie.

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    Ash is a Shounen underdog archetype character. He will not win all the time. That's just that.

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    He' still the only shonen protag I know to still remain so weak after 700 episodes. Even naruto and yuma from zexal got better.

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    80% of the time, Ash is shown as too weak (BW especially).

    Overall we know Ash is an incredibly strong trainer, however despite this the writers make every single battle a challenge for him. They always make it look like he's struggling to win (because of X Pokemon or X Stategy). This sucks, because when he does win it always makes it feel like he only just got away with it.

    I missed the early episodes of Johto when Charizard was shown as too strong which Misty and Brock commented on. I also miss when Ash was too cocky for getting multiple wins in a row in AG, which ultimately Drake had to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    80% of the time, Ash is shown as too weak (BW especially).

    Overall we know Ash is an incredibly strong trainer, however despite this the writers make every single battle a challenge for him. They always make it look like he's struggling to win (because of X Pokemon or X Stategy). This sucks, because when he does win it always makes it feel like he only just got away with it.

    I missed the early episodes of Johto when Charizard was shown as too strong which Misty and Brock commented on. I also miss when Ash was too cocky for getting multiple wins in a row in AG, which ultimately Drake had to stop.
    Agreed. It would be cool if even after all this time Ash shows some progress, but still has to learn after all this time. I mean, a person can always to learn new stuff. So even if they temporarily "overpower" him at the beginning of the new series, I don't think that thing is necessarily bad.

    And no, with that I don't mean "Ash must beat everything in his path". Just... keep him more consistent.
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    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    Nobody is asking for that (a part some people). What people want is more coherence, nothing more. I mean, isn't better to see Ash saying "Oh, I must weaken a Pokemon before catching it!" instead of mindlessly throwing his Poke Ball at Pokemon (Deerling and Snivy), if they really need to teach that lesson to children?
    Last edited by Cresselia92; 2nd March 2013 at 6:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    Nobody is asking for that (a part some people). What people want is more coherence, nothing more.
    Um, the first post seems to imply that Ash hasn't shown any degree of competency which is completely wrong.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    I was just about to say that, however, badassary is actually trendy among characters. Not that I personally want a uber h4xor character, of course.

    But yeah, Satoshi can't win all the time not only that but he can't win against characters who logically he can't beat. I'd be raising an eyebrow if he WERE to win against Kotetsu or Takuto. Just saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I was just about to say that, however, badassary is actually trendy among characters. Not that I personally want a uber h4xor character, of course.

    But yeah, Satoshi can't win all the time not only that but he can't win against characters who logically he can't beat. I'd be raising an eyebrow if he WERE to win against Kotetsu or Takuto. Just saying.
    Um...he SHOULD be able to beat Kotetsu. As for Takuto...he should be able to do better than 1HKOs




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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    Um...he SHOULD be able to beat Kotetsu. As for Takuto...he should be able to do better than 1HKOs
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
    He beat a Metagross owned by an older more competent trainer two series ago with Swellow, Grovyle, and Pikachu. Boldore and Pignite should have been more than enough.

    As for Samurott and Lucario...Pikachu beat Samurott with barely any trouble. And Lucario was absolute bull. Riolu should not be KOing fully evolved Normal/Flying types and yet getting beaten terribly by Snivy




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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
    The same Pikachu that lost to a Panpour. Ash has been outsmarted in that battle. :P

    The strength of a Pokemon doesn't automatically mean that his Trainer is strong, you know.

    But... I think that during a battle a lot of factors influence the outcome of said match. And I feel that in BW Ash has been less creative than in previous regions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    Agreed. It would be cool if even after all this time Ash shows some progress, but still has to learn after all this time. I mean, a person can always to learn new stuff. So even if they temporarily "overpower" him at the beginning of the new series, I don't think that thing is necessarily bad.

    And no, with that I don't mean "Ash must beat everything in his path". Just... keep him more consistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    I'd like to point out that Tyson from the OS of Beyblade was shown as very powerful, yet the writers still managed to maintain his strength and made him look weak at times.

    The same could be done with Ash but unfortunately it isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    i actually wouldn't mind a bad *** ash who can't be beat. so long as he shows the competence and intelligence that he would need to be unbeatable. and of course i don't mean winning 100% of battles. but i would like it if it took another really good trainer to make him falter. like one that can outsmart him. not somebody like trip or paul. someone like cynthia ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by RVD_fan View Post
    What could've saved Best Wishes was having Ash really take his lesser result at the league to heart and becoming a little more active with his training before the next region, where it eventually pays off. I'm not expecting him to mope around, but to recognize his mistakes and actively try to work on them. Best Wishes isn't over yet and Ash did mention at the end of the league that he needed to get stronger, so who knows, maybe the arc after N will deal with that.
    i would have wanted him to react similarly to his reaction after he lost to paul in their first real full battle. like how he was really brought down by it in "uncrushing defeat" but he eventually came around and learned from where he went wrong and went on to defeat him in the league but it would be nice to see him become a better trainer in general. not just against a specific opponent, which is something i loved about DP. ash kept growing throughout the series, it wasn't just skipping stones like "oh i beat another gym, my skill level has increased" type of stuff. which isn't even what we see in BW. he's constantly faltering throughout the saga. and i actually enjoy the BW saga. i just don't even mentally give it the attention that i gave the rest of the entire series. it doesn't have that same feel. it makes me feel like i'm watching a renewed pokemon saga.
    Last edited by Greninja VI; 3rd March 2013 at 10:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    The problem with this logic, is that Ash has never won enough for this to be a problem.

    And it's the same reason why Ash will never be a Pokemon master.

    Because he is so weak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dman_dustin View Post
    The problem with this logic, is that Ash has never won enough for this to be a problem.

    And it's the same reason why Ash will never be a Pokemon master.

    Because he is so weak.
    Exactly! I don't get why one extreme is okay but not the other? I just want better consistency, not perfect, but better. That's not too much to ask.




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    Quote Originally Posted by dman_dustin View Post
    The problem with this logic, is that Ash has never won enough for this to be a problem.

    And it's the same reason why Ash will never be a Pokemon master.

    Because he is so weak.
    Spilling the truth tea as always. I agree.

    I really dislike the lack of consistency. Ash has traveled far and wide and should be really strong at this point, but the writers purposely ignore that because they're afraid that Ash would be too powerful if he used all the knowledge and experience he's accumulated throughout his journey. If they're really afraid that Ash would beat all the new trainers when he gets to a new region, why not introduce stronger trainers to begin with? Like, instead of all the rookie ones that he usually meets, he should meet trainers who have just as much experience as he does; this is assuming that the writers keep him at a high level instead of having him regress all the time of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Spilling the truth tea as always. I agree.

    I really dislike the lack of consistency. Ash has traveled far and wide and should be really strong at this point, but the writers purposely ignore that because they're afraid that Ash would be too powerful if he used all the knowledge and experience he's accumulated throughout his journey. If they're really afraid that Ash would beat all the new trainers when he gets to a new region, why not introduce stronger trainers to begin with? Like, instead of all the rookie ones that he usually meets, he should meet trainers who have just as much experience as he does; this is assuming that the writers keep him at a high level instead of having him regress all the time of course.
    They did that in DP. Paul, the gym leaders seemed to be as tough as ever without making Ash look weak, the Elite Four got a huge boost in power and especially Cynthia.




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