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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

  1. #1
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    Default Is our Protagonist too weak?

    By this I mean Ash, he's always the underdog approximately 99.99999% of the time, struggling to defeat even the most basic of opponents. Shouldn't he at least be able to show any degree of competency?

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    He does show degrees of competency. But they usually only happen near the middle and/or at the end of the saga.

    And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.
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    Ash is a Shounen underdog archetype character. He will not win all the time. That's just that.

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    He' still the only shonen protag I know to still remain so weak after 700 episodes. Even naruto and yuma from zexal got better.

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    80% of the time, Ash is shown as too weak (BW especially).

    Overall we know Ash is an incredibly strong trainer, however despite this the writers make every single battle a challenge for him. They always make it look like he's struggling to win (because of X Pokemon or X Stategy). This sucks, because when he does win it always makes it feel like he only just got away with it.

    I missed the early episodes of Johto when Charizard was shown as too strong which Misty and Brock commented on. I also miss when Ash was too cocky for getting multiple wins in a row in AG, which ultimately Drake had to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    80% of the time, Ash is shown as too weak (BW especially).

    Overall we know Ash is an incredibly strong trainer, however despite this the writers make every single battle a challenge for him. They always make it look like he's struggling to win (because of X Pokemon or X Stategy). This sucks, because when he does win it always makes it feel like he only just got away with it.

    I missed the early episodes of Johto when Charizard was shown as too strong which Misty and Brock commented on. I also miss when Ash was too cocky for getting multiple wins in a row in AG, which ultimately Drake had to stop.
    Agreed. It would be cool if even after all this time Ash shows some progress, but still has to learn after all this time. I mean, a person can always to learn new stuff. So even if they temporarily "overpower" him at the beginning of the new series, I don't think that thing is necessarily bad.

    And no, with that I don't mean "Ash must beat everything in his path". Just... keep him more consistent.
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    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.


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    No he's not weak enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    Nobody is asking for that (a part some people). What people want is more coherence, nothing more. I mean, isn't better to see Ash saying "Oh, I must weaken a Pokemon before catching it!" instead of mindlessly throwing his Poke Ball at Pokemon (Deerling and Snivy), if they really need to teach that lesson to children?
    Last edited by Cresselia92; 2nd March 2013 at 6:48 PM.
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    I always figured it was because of the intended audience. Pokemon is designed for young kids, who probably aren't that good at gaming so they struggle just as much as Ash, meaning they relate to him more

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    Ash has always been an underdog. he doesnt make any real progression. he travels through four regions and he doesnt even know how to catch a pokemon. he acts like an experienced trainer in the middle and ending of a saga. in the beginning of a one he acts like a noob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    Nobody is asking for that (a part some people). What people want is more coherence, nothing more.
    Um, the first post seems to imply that Ash hasn't shown any degree of competency which is completely wrong.


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    People always say that Ash winning everything wouldn't be entertaining. I agree, he's not Yugi who has to win everything or get banished to the Shadow Realm. Ash is on a journey

    However, the opposite extreme is worse. Barely winning anything. That's how it is in BW. I can't believe it, it's no fun seeing Ash being put down to make someone look powerful. I didn't like it against Drew and Kenny, and I really don't like how it's increased




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  14. #14

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    Yeah he is too weak, but it's because the show needs to keep his battles interesting. It would get boring fast if he were to stay overpowered and have very little losses in a new series. It's for marketing reasons too. Ash was apparently supposed to win the Indigo League, but the franchise was so popular that G/S came out and the anime continued on too. It'll probably go on like this with Ash never winning a league unless the show finally concludes due to the games losing popularity and the anime's ratings dropping to new all time lows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    I was just about to say that, however, badassary is actually trendy among characters. Not that I personally want a uber h4xor character, of course.

    But yeah, Satoshi can't win all the time not only that but he can't win against characters who logically he can't beat. I'd be raising an eyebrow if he WERE to win against Kotetsu or Takuto. Just saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    People always say that Ash winning everything wouldn't be entertaining. I agree, he's not Yugi who has to win everything or get banished to the Shadow Realm. Ash is on a journey

    However, the opposite extreme is worse. Barely winning anything. That's how it is in BW. I can't believe it, it's no fun seeing Ash being put down to make someone look powerful. I didn't like it against Drew and Kenny, and I really don't like how it's increased
    You have a point there. The solution is obviously to turn pokemon into a shadow game

    If Ash was on the same level as your average 8 year old who just got to BW postgame I honestly think it would be an imporvement. At least he would have 1 fully evolved starter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I was just about to say that, however, badassary is actually trendy among characters. Not that I personally want a uber h4xor character, of course.

    But yeah, Satoshi can't win all the time not only that but he can't win against characters who logically he can't beat. I'd be raising an eyebrow if he WERE to win against Kotetsu or Takuto. Just saying.
    Um...he SHOULD be able to beat Kotetsu. As for Takuto...he should be able to do better than 1HKOs




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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    Um...he SHOULD be able to beat Kotetsu. As for Takuto...he should be able to do better than 1HKOs
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
    He beat a Metagross owned by an older more competent trainer two series ago with Swellow, Grovyle, and Pikachu. Boldore and Pignite should have been more than enough.

    As for Samurott and Lucario...Pikachu beat Samurott with barely any trouble. And Lucario was absolute bull. Riolu should not be KOing fully evolved Normal/Flying types and yet getting beaten terribly by Snivy




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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
    The same Pikachu that lost to a Panpour. Ash has been outsmarted in that battle. :P

    The strength of a Pokemon doesn't automatically mean that his Trainer is strong, you know.

    But... I think that during a battle a lot of factors influence the outcome of said match. And I feel that in BW Ash has been less creative than in previous regions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    i disagree, especially with the hydreigon, samurott and the lucario. (and against a oshawott, snivy etc). Now that I think about it, if Satoshi could beat a darkrai with a sceptile and have his pikachu tie with a latios... then i don't think he's too weak at all.
    He could have beaten him, just not with the team he picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    He beat a Metagross owned by an older more competent trainer two series ago with Swellow, Grovyle, and Pikachu. Boldore and Pignite should have been more than enough.

    As for Samurott and Lucario...Pikachu beat Samurott with barely any trouble. And Lucario was absolute bull. Riolu should not be KOing fully evolved Normal/Flying types and yet getting beaten terribly by Snivy
    Uggh. Hoenn was so cheap with the environmental DEM.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    Agreed. It would be cool if even after all this time Ash shows some progress, but still has to learn after all this time. I mean, a person can always to learn new stuff. So even if they temporarily "overpower" him at the beginning of the new series, I don't think that thing is necessarily bad.

    And no, with that I don't mean "Ash must beat everything in his path". Just... keep him more consistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    I'd like to point out that Tyson from the OS of Beyblade was shown as very powerful, yet the writers still managed to maintain his strength and made him look weak at times.

    The same could be done with Ash but unfortunately it isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    He could have beaten him, just not with the team he picked.


    Uggh. Hoenn was so cheap with the environmental DEM.
    Except it wasn't environmental DEM. It was the anime version of critical hits. Weak spot

    But anything with Swellow is DEM to you apparently




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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    Except it wasn't environmental DEM. It was the anime version of critical hits. Weak spot

    But anything with Swellow is DEM to you apparently
    Oh really like breaking something's head open oh so conviniently after steamrollering half of tyson's team to give Ash the win doesnt smell fishy to you?

    Because it looked like they were just powering up ash like that because there was no way he could have won legitimately

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Oh really like breaking something's head open oh so conviniently after steamrollering half of tyson's team to give Ash the win doesnt smell fishy to you?
    A Hariyama which it KOd with no problem, and Donphan. Then it gets a Peck in and gets immediately trashed by Metagross. He didn't win because of how he used his team. Torkoal could have been saved to cause less of a pain to Pikachu who then could have beaten Meowth no problem




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