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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

  1. #126

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    I mean switch protagonists every season. Since the next season would focus on a new protagonist and not the same one from the current season, the writers can let him/her win a league and thus end that story on a high note, then start fresh with someone completely new.
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  2. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    Uh, no. It would have been the same. They probably wouldn't have letted a new boy win any leagues as well. And who's to say if anyone would have liked the boy to be powered down and stupid again like Ash was in order to make sales?
    I disagree here. There would be far more new perspectives.

    1) The protagonist would probably be a boy or a girl.
    2) Since each region has its own plot, we can imagine that the boy/girl will get involved too much into the evil team's schemes.
    3) The protagonist would have a different personality. For example, Brendan/May could be trying to upstage Norman or something.
    4) The rival would be different. The fangirls would just squeal if Silver was a recurring character.
    5) We especially wouldn't have stupid little Pokemon getting lost in a league arc.
    6) More importantly, we wouldn't have the pointless anime leagues!

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    That lost to Cameron was even more pathetic then Ash's loses to Trip
    Dunno about that, I mean team matchup wise Ash pretty much had no business winning that even with kotetsu having 5. And he actually would've won without the evolution anyway and the last battle was reaaally close so it's not like he got slayed or anything. Unlike his losses against Trip which were beyond humiliating.
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  4. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohanator View Post
    Dunno about that, I mean team matchup wise Ash pretty much had no business winning that even with kotetsu having 5. And he actually would've won without the evolution anyway and the last battle was reaaally close so it's not like he got slayed or anything. Unlike his losses against Trip which were beyond humiliating.
    In the end, Ash got screwed over by a small dosis of bad matchup that he wanted to push and obscenely good luck stacked against him.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohanator View Post
    Dunno about that, I mean team matchup wise Ash pretty much had no business winning that even with kotetsu having 5. And he actually would've won without the evolution anyway and the last battle was reaaally close so it's not like he got slayed or anything. Unlike his losses against Trip which were beyond humiliating.
    I'm sorry but at least the early lost to Trip gave a reason to the defeat, Ash was still new to the region. The fact that he kept Pignite in against Samurott screams "You Idiot" that it's not even funny
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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    I'm sorry but at least the early lost to Trip gave a reason to the defeat, Ash was still new to the region. The fact that he kept Pignite in against Samurott screams "You Idiot" that it's not even funny
    What screamed "You idiot" Even more was him forgetting to use attract. He had an instant win button right there and chose not to use it. I mean i know its good sportsmanship and under just about every other circumstance I would commend Ash for taking the high road. But when you're in the league you play to win and that includes all the dirty legal(and illegal ones you can get away) tricks you can find.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    What screamed "You idiot" Even more was him forgetting to use attract. He had an instant win button right there and chose not to use it. I mean i know its good sportsmanship and under just about every other circumstance I would commend Ash for taking the high road. But when you're in the league you play to win and that includes all the dirty legal(and illegal ones you can get away) tricks you can find.
    It's fine to use it against gym leaders and Trip, but when it's against the guy you wanna beat but also have a good time against, it's darn right evil
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  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    What screamed "You idiot" Even more was him forgetting to use attract. He had an instant win button right there and chose not to use it. I mean i know its good sportsmanship and under just about every other circumstance I would commend Ash for taking the high road. But when you're in the league you play to win and that includes all the dirty legal(and illegal ones you can get away) tricks you can find.
    I think Kotetsu forgot a Pokemon on purpose to distract Ash in the battle. I guess Kotetsu outplayed Ash with one of the legal dirty tricks you mentioned :P

  9. #134
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    Is Ash weak?

    Well yes he very much is. In fact, I'd wager that he's downright stupid.

    If I had to describe Ash's battle style, I'd say he knows the bare minimum of the requirements to be a Trainer. He knows Pokemon have different types and different types of attacks, but that about as far as his knowledge goes. As far as advanced knowledge goes, I'd say he really doesn't have it, although some people like to think he does. A lot of times, Ash's "skill" as a Trainer is no better than someone who was just handed a Pokemon and was told to battle with it.

    Probably since after the Indigo League, Ash hasn't shown any sort of real progression as far as reaching his goal. Since then, we've been fed this notion that Ash always has something more to learn, so therefore he can't ever win a League, which is a crap lesson in itself. Someone brought up Tyson from Beyblade, and I think that is a perfect example of Ash's situation.

    Although, I would wager that Naruto is an even better example for as far as protagonists go. People like to say that Ash is the underdog that always has to struggle in order to prove that he is this great Trainer. While that may be true, he is always the underdog, no matter who he is battling against, despite all the experience he has from all the regions he has visited before, showing little to no signs of progression. Naruto on the other hand, has been shown from Day 1 to always be getting better despite being that underdog, getting entire Training Arcs to show how he is getting better and explains why he needs to train instead of just going into battle with what he has now. At no point in Naruto's story does Naruto ever pull some bullcrap out of his butt under the guise of "Well, he thinks on his feet a lot" in order to beat someone. We see him go through the training, learn the technique, then practice it until he feels he is capable of using it in a high stakes situation. With Ash, he barely does any sort of training and when the battle happens, its usually a case of "I didn't think to do that until just now" or some other stuff that usually causes his battles to seem like he just barely scraped through it, seeming as if he rather got lucky than displaying any skill. Compare Naruto to Ash and see which one actually looks like an underdog who actually strives to get better.

    There also seems to be this notion that if Ash actually won anything, that he would instantly become this boring, unbeatable character that no one wants to watch, which is also a facile argument. How Ash reacts to winning is entirely up to the writing staff. A character that is actually successful isn't inherently boring and uninteresting to watch.

    As for me personally, I'm just sick of seeing a main character that always takes losing with a smile on his face. He is the textbook example of "Oh well, at least I had fun". He doesn't get upset or thinks of ways he could have done better. He just shrugs and says "Well shucks, I hope I do better next time" and doesn't do anything to prove that he will. If I was Ash after losing to Cameron, I'd be absolutely livid, not smiling and shaking the idiot's hand. He's not an underdog at that point, he is just the example of what bad writing can do to a main character that has been around for years. It feels like he dropped his goal of becoming a Pokemon Master and just wants to go out and have fun with Pokemon. If you think about it, the only time Ash actually got upset after losing a League was in Kanto after his loss to Ritchie. Deep down, he knew he could have won if Charizard listened to him (Which was his own fault for not training it properly before the League, instead opting to goof off). And what do all of his friends tell him? "Don't let the loss get to you. You tried your best and at least you had fun, right?" as if saying he shouldn't get mad at losing and having fun was all that mattered. I'm not saying that he should become this cold lifeless robot that only cares about power. I'm just saying at least show some sense of urgency. There are thousands of other Trainers that are striving for the same thing you are, do you really think they are going to care if they had fun while battling you for a League position? These are the most important battles that they will ever face and probably won't have a chance like this again, so why would they concern themselves with having fun?

    Ever since Kanto, I haven't felt like Ash has gotten any better since losing. Sure he has more Pokemon now, but as far as being a Trainer goes, he's been the same since then.
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  10. #135
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    What if

    and hear me out

    that Ash

    is actually the rival instead?

    In all serious though, yes I admit he is weak but then again, most cartoons are weak.


  11. #136
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    The entire reason why a lot more people (many many) see Ash as weak is because of the BW series. It's sad that in just 3 years the writers screwed up Ash like this




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  12. #137

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    So in the end, screw Ash.

    Give us Tommy! He's the only in-game protagonist character that does exist in the anime!

  13. #138
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    I don't understand. After him getting to "competent" power level in DP he's suddenly jobbing in BW.
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  14. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Magic Thunderbolt~ View Post
    I don't understand. After him getting to "competent" power level in DP he's suddenly jobbing in BW.
    It was Paul's influence that made him be super competent. That, and the fact the season lasted a good long while unlike short BW where it was stock full of Pokemon that had too little screentime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    It was Paul's influence that made him be super competent. That, and the fact the season lasted a good long while unlike short BW where it was stock full of Pokemon that had too little screentime.
    Those rookie rivals rubbed off on him
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  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by diakyu View Post
    He does show degrees of competency. But they usually only happen near the middle and/or at the end of the saga.

    And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.
    I was a huge One Piece fan and Luffy was never really underpowered. They made him the underdog by giving him more formidable foes, not by continually reverting him to his weak self.

    Ash has been training for years and he should at least be consistently a lot stronger than he is. If they want to keep him as the underdog, give him tougher opponents. Don't continually revert him to being a newbie.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathseer View Post
    Is Ash weak?

    Well yes he very much is. In fact, I'd wager that he's downright stupid.

    If I had to describe Ash's battle style, I'd say he knows the bare minimum of the requirements to be a Trainer. He knows Pokemon have different types and different types of attacks, but that about as far as his knowledge goes. As far as advanced knowledge goes, I'd say he really doesn't have it, although some people like to think he does. A lot of times, Ash's "skill" as a Trainer is no better than someone who was just handed a Pokemon and was told to battle with it.

    Probably since after the Indigo League, Ash hasn't shown any sort of real progression as far as reaching his goal. Since then, we've been fed this notion that Ash always has something more to learn, so therefore he can't ever win a League, which is a crap lesson in itself. Someone brought up Tyson from Beyblade, and I think that is a perfect example of Ash's situation.

    Although, I would wager that Naruto is an even better example for as far as protagonists go. People like to say that Ash is the underdog that always has to struggle in order to prove that he is this great Trainer. While that may be true, he is always the underdog, no matter who he is battling against, despite all the experience he has from all the regions he has visited before, showing little to no signs of progression. Naruto on the other hand, has been shown from Day 1 to always be getting better despite being that underdog, getting entire Training Arcs to show how he is getting better and explains why he needs to train instead of just going into battle with what he has now. At no point in Naruto's story does Naruto ever pull some bullcrap out of his butt under the guise of "Well, he thinks on his feet a lot" in order to beat someone. We see him go through the training, learn the technique, then practice it until he feels he is capable of using it in a high stakes situation. With Ash, he barely does any sort of training and when the battle happens, its usually a case of "I didn't think to do that until just now" or some other stuff that usually causes his battles to seem like he just barely scraped through it, seeming as if he rather got lucky than displaying any skill. Compare Naruto to Ash and see which one actually looks like an underdog who actually strives to get better.

    There also seems to be this notion that if Ash actually won anything, that he would instantly become this boring, unbeatable character that no one wants to watch, which is also a facile argument. How Ash reacts to winning is entirely up to the writing staff. A character that is actually successful isn't inherently boring and uninteresting to watch.

    As for me personally, I'm just sick of seeing a main character that always takes losing with a smile on his face. He is the textbook example of "Oh well, at least I had fun". He doesn't get upset or thinks of ways he could have done better. He just shrugs and says "Well shucks, I hope I do better next time" and doesn't do anything to prove that he will. If I was Ash after losing to Cameron, I'd be absolutely livid, not smiling and shaking the idiot's hand. He's not an underdog at that point, he is just the example of what bad writing can do to a main character that has been around for years. It feels like he dropped his goal of becoming a Pokemon Master and just wants to go out and have fun with Pokemon. If you think about it, the only time Ash actually got upset after losing a League was in Kanto after his loss to Ritchie. Deep down, he knew he could have won if Charizard listened to him (Which was his own fault for not training it properly before the League, instead opting to goof off). And what do all of his friends tell him? "Don't let the loss get to you. You tried your best and at least you had fun, right?" as if saying he shouldn't get mad at losing and having fun was all that mattered. I'm not saying that he should become this cold lifeless robot that only cares about power. I'm just saying at least show some sense of urgency. There are thousands of other Trainers that are striving for the same thing you are, do you really think they are going to care if they had fun while battling you for a League position? These are the most important battles that they will ever face and probably won't have a chance like this again, so why would they concern themselves with having fun?

    Ever since Kanto, I haven't felt like Ash has gotten any better since losing. Sure he has more Pokemon now, but as far as being a Trainer goes, he's been the same since then.
    Dude, stop reading my mind.

    But seriously, you summed up my feeling well.

  18. #143
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    Well, I didn't really mind the Johto League, as Ash finally got to beat Gary and even got from top 16 to top 8. I also liked how well he did in Sinnoh, reaching the top 4.
    I also don't mind if Ash keeps the same position as he did in the previous league (Johto to Hoenn).
    However, I really didn't like the Unova league and I agree that his reaction to the loss was unrealistic, especially since Ash had WAY better Pokémon to choose from and Cameron is just a moron.

  19. #144
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    I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    By this I mean Ash, he's always the underdog approximately 99.99999% of the time, struggling to defeat even the most basic of opponents. Shouldn't he at least be able to show any degree of competency?
    Yes, especially considering he's had almost 16 years to meet his goal by now. ROFL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.
    Yeah, I sadly think that's the reality of the series at this point.
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  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.
    That's a really sad lesson for kids to learn though. I mean, this is basically a shonen anime and those usually have happy endings and such. If Ash doesn't accomplish his goal, then the whole anime will have been redundant imo. But honestly, I can't see Ash improving at this point anyway without some plot inconsistencies and deus ex machina of course.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwail8023 View Post
    Yes, especially considering he's had almost 16 years to meet his goal by now. ROFL.
    16 years our time, months in the Pokemon universe ^^;

    Yeah, I sadly think that's the reality of the series at this point.
    What's worst is it's gonna feel completely rushed once Pokemon comes to an end
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  23. #148

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    I'd say it's more likely that the whole shebang just gets uncerimoniously dropped midway in the highly unlikely event of the animé ending.
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    Yuyama: "Yes, I thought it'd be better if it was a different Mewtwo."
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  24. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.
    That's pretty dark there, yo. *Blows bubble pipe*

    Maybe this anime is darker than it seems... Naaaaaaah.

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spin Attaxx View Post
    I'd say it's more likely that the whole shebang just gets uncerimoniously dropped midway in the highly unlikely event of the animé ending.
    That's probably what will end up happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by blob View Post
    Well, I didn't really mind the Johto League, as Ash finally got to beat Gary and even got from top 16 to top 8. I also liked how well he did in Sinnoh, reaching the top 4.
    I also don't mind if Ash keeps the same position as he did in the previous league (Johto to Hoenn).
    However, I really didn't like the Unova league and I agree that his reaction to the loss was unrealistic, especially since Ash had WAY better Pokémon to choose from and Cameron is just a moron.
    I loved Kanto-Hoenn (Johto League Champions was BORING though, but the others arcs of Johto were interesting to me and I enjoyed them), thought Battle Frontier was kinda cool but the dub change annoyed me greatly, DP was a pretty mature take on the series, but there was a real lack of character chemistry (and I can't stand what DP did to my buddy Brock/Takeshi). Unova then brought my love of the anime back at long last for its first few episodes, but the league and Ash's lack of progress (coupled with TRio's poor characterization this arc) make BW much worse than it started off (pretty epic).
    Last edited by PokemonNation2000; 8th March 2013 at 12:27 AM.
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    4. Games: XY > BW1 > BW2 > RSE > GSC > Y > HGSS > DP > RBG
    5. Pokémon: The Origin: Excellent: 93/100.
    6. Manga: RS > RB > Y > FRLG > XY > BW > E > DP > GSC
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