Is our Protagonist too weak?

[Judai-and-sho]

He does show degrees of competency. But they usually only happen near the middle and/or at the end of the saga.

And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.

I was a huge One Piece fan and Luffy was never really underpowered. They made him the underdog by giving him more formidable foes, not by continually reverting him to his weak self.

Ash has been training for years and he should at least be consistently a lot stronger than he is. If they want to keep him as the underdog, give him tougher opponents. Don't continually revert him to being a newbie.

[matt0044]

Is Ash weak?

Well yes he very much is. In fact, I'd wager that he's downright stupid.

If I had to describe Ash's battle style, I'd say he knows the bare minimum of the requirements to be a Trainer. He knows Pokemon have different types and different types of attacks, but that about as far as his knowledge goes. As far as advanced knowledge goes, I'd say he really doesn't have it, although some people like to think he does. A lot of times, Ash's "skill" as a Trainer is no better than someone who was just handed a Pokemon and was told to battle with it.

Probably since after the Indigo League, Ash hasn't shown any sort of real progression as far as reaching his goal. Since then, we've been fed this notion that Ash always has something more to learn, so therefore he can't ever win a League, which is a crap lesson in itself. Someone brought up Tyson from Beyblade, and I think that is a perfect example of Ash's situation.

Although, I would wager that Naruto is an even better example for as far as protagonists go. People like to say that Ash is the underdog that always has to struggle in order to prove that he is this great Trainer. While that may be true, he is always the underdog, no matter who he is battling against, despite all the experience he has from all the regions he has visited before, showing little to no signs of progression. Naruto on the other hand, has been shown from Day 1 to always be getting better despite being that underdog, getting entire Training Arcs to show how he is getting better and explains why he needs to train instead of just going into battle with what he has now. At no point in Naruto's story does Naruto ever pull some bullcrap out of his butt under the guise of "Well, he thinks on his feet a lot" in order to beat someone. We see him go through the training, learn the technique, then practice it until he feels he is capable of using it in a high stakes situation. With Ash, he barely does any sort of training and when the battle happens, its usually a case of "I didn't think to do that until just now" or some other stuff that usually causes his battles to seem like he just barely scraped through it, seeming as if he rather got lucky than displaying any skill. Compare Naruto to Ash and see which one actually looks like an underdog who actually strives to get better.

There also seems to be this notion that if Ash actually won anything, that he would instantly become this boring, unbeatable character that no one wants to watch, which is also a facile argument. How Ash reacts to winning is entirely up to the writing staff. A character that is actually successful isn't inherently boring and uninteresting to watch.

As for me personally, I'm just sick of seeing a main character that always takes losing with a smile on his face. He is the textbook example of "Oh well, at least I had fun". He doesn't get upset or thinks of ways he could have done better. He just shrugs and says "Well shucks, I hope I do better next time" and doesn't do anything to prove that he will. If I was Ash after losing to Cameron, I'd be absolutely livid, not smiling and shaking the idiot's hand. He's not an underdog at that point, he is just the example of what bad writing can do to a main character that has been around for years. It feels like he dropped his goal of becoming a Pokemon Master and just wants to go out and have fun with Pokemon. If you think about it, the only time Ash actually got upset after losing a League was in Kanto after his loss to Ritchie. Deep down, he knew he could have won if Charizard listened to him (Which was his own fault for not training it properly before the League, instead opting to goof off). And what do all of his friends tell him? "Don't let the loss get to you. You tried your best and at least you had fun, right?" as if saying he shouldn't get mad at losing and having fun was all that mattered. I'm not saying that he should become this cold lifeless robot that only cares about power. I'm just saying at least show some sense of urgency. There are thousands of other Trainers that are striving for the same thing you are, do you really think they are going to care if they had fun while battling you for a League position? These are the most important battles that they will ever face and probably won't have a chance like this again, so why would they concern themselves with having fun?

Ever since Kanto, I haven't felt like Ash has gotten any better since losing. Sure he has more Pokemon now, but as far as being a Trainer goes, he's been the same since then.

Dude, stop reading my mind.

But seriously, you summed up my feeling well.

[blob]

Well, I didn't really mind the Johto League, as Ash finally got to beat Gary and even got from top 16 to top 8. I also liked how well he did in Sinnoh, reaching the top 4.
I also don't mind if Ash keeps the same position as he did in the previous league (Johto to Hoenn).
However, I really didn't like the Unova league and I agree that his reaction to the loss was unrealistic, especially since Ash had WAY better Pokémon to choose from and Cameron is just a moron.

[Joltik-Kid]

I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.

[Dwail8023]

By this I mean Ash, he's always the underdog approximately 99.99999% of the time, struggling to defeat even the most basic of opponents. Shouldn't he at least be able to show any degree of competency?

Yes, especially considering he's had almost 16 years to meet his goal by now. ROFL.

I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.

Yeah, I sadly think that's the reality of the series at this point.

[Ciccone]

I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.

That's a really sad lesson for kids to learn though. I mean, this is basically a shonen anime and those usually have happy endings and such. If Ash doesn't accomplish his goal, then the whole anime will have been redundant imo. But honestly, I can't see Ash improving at this point anyway without some plot inconsistencies and deus ex machina of course.

[Joltik-Kid]

Yes, especially considering he's had almost 16 years to meet his goal by now. ROFL.

16 years our time, months in the Pokemon universe ^^;

Yeah, I sadly think that's the reality of the series at this point.

What's worst is it's gonna feel completely rushed once Pokemon comes to an end

[Spin Attaxx]

I'd say it's more likely that the whole shebang just gets uncerimoniously dropped midway in the highly unlikely event of the animé ending.

[AuraChannelerChris]

I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.

That's pretty dark there, yo. *Blows bubble pipe*

Maybe this anime is darker than it seems... Naaaaaaah.

[Dwail8023]

I'd say it's more likely that the whole shebang just gets uncerimoniously dropped midway in the highly unlikely event of the animé ending.

That's probably what will end up happening.

Well, I didn't really mind the Johto League, as Ash finally got to beat Gary and even got from top 16 to top 8. I also liked how well he did in Sinnoh, reaching the top 4.
I also don't mind if Ash keeps the same position as he did in the previous league (Johto to Hoenn).
However, I really didn't like the Unova league and I agree that his reaction to the loss was unrealistic, especially since Ash had WAY better Pokémon to choose from and Cameron is just a moron.

I loved Kanto-Hoenn (Johto League Champions was BORING though, but the others arcs of Johto were interesting to me and I enjoyed them), thought Battle Frontier was kinda cool but the dub change annoyed me greatly, DP was a pretty mature take on the series, but there was a real lack of character chemistry (and I can't stand what DP did to my buddy Brock/Takeshi). Unova then brought my love of the anime back at long last for its first few episodes, but the league and Ash's lack of progress (coupled with TRio's poor characterization this arc) make BW much worse than it started off (pretty epic).

[deathseer]

I think the destiny of this show is for Ash to never really improve just stay at a constant in-between trainer. Maybe it's just a cold reminder that even if you set your mind to something, your not always gonna be able to accomplish it.

I sincerely doubt the writers could ever come up with something like that or competently execute it well.

[Dwail8023]

I sincerely doubt the writers could ever come up with something like that or competently execute it well.

Deathseer knows the writers too well! XD.

[marioluigifan05]

(Johto League Champions was BORING though

Hey, I loved Johto League Champions :P

Otherwise, I agree with ya.

[matt0044]

Deathseer knows the writers too well! XD.

Know your enemy, they always say.

[Dwail8023]

Hey, I loved Johto League Champions :P

Otherwise, I agree with ya.

Oh, I do too, I just feel Johto Journeys and Master Quest are better, that's all.

Know your enemy, they always say.

Too true, too true.

[deathseer]

Until Ash actually emotes something other than "happy-go-lucky", then an idea like that would never come to fruition. If Ash actually got upset at his losses and slowly begins to realize that after all of his failures, that he may not be cut out for being a Pokemon Master, then it would be really interesting. Sort of how like Gary realized that being a Trainer just wasn't suiting him but actually built upon and not just made out of nowhere. Show him actually getting upset when he loses and wonders why he isn't doing as well as he thought he would. Stop having him try to be everyone's friend and have him actually care about the competition.

Personally, it sounds like a pretty good idea and can make an easy transition to another goal that is actually obtainable rather than the vague Pokemon Master goal that they have no clear intention of actually revealing what it is. But if my gut tells me anything, its that a "Pokemon Master" is a subjective term. Sort how like in stories where they say the hero will find a great treasure at the end of his journey, only for him to realize that the real treasure was the journey and the friends he made along the way. I have always called BS on stories like that, since its like going on an arduous journey, only to be kicked in the balls at the very end.

I say just give Ash the Frontier brain spot he was offered and end his "journey" already.

[ludiloco]

Ash becomes a better trainer each time he uses an old pokemon, he's just not used to new stuff.

That's why he always grabs Pikachu to any new region xD

[Ciccone]

Ash becomes a better trainer each time he uses an old pokemon, he's just not used to new stuff.

It's more like his old Pokemon have a lot of experience, which makes them more competent in battles. But that doesn't mean that Ash always wins with them; he can still make mistakes like when he ordered Charizard to use Seismic Toss against a Ghost-type and lost the match as a result.

[thunderblade12]

What's annoying is that he got better in AG and DP and now he seems weaker than he was in Johto

[OceanicLanturn]

The sad truth is that Ash will probably never win a league *sadface*

I find it sad that ash's Unova Team is probably the weakest team he had in the franchise. Although I don't see how evolution to Oshawott would help, I would've liked it if the team got more development. In AG and DP, he wasn't too weak, and is constantly reminded in DP that there is always stronger trainers (Cynthia & Paul) while AG he was never really too proud.