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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Ahaha, that's a good joke there
    Are you saying torkoal is incapable of beating something good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Are you saying torkoal is incapable of beating something good?
    I like Torkoal, but he's been the writers mistreated child for ages... and I'm say Pikachu was and always will be played up to be Ash's most reliable Pokemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Ahaha, that's a good joke there
    What wrong with Torkoal beating a steel type??
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    What wrong with Torkoal beating a steel type??
    Torkoal was koed before Metagross even entered the picture :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Really? Cause I see it as Ash winning with his partner Pikachu (the one he truly relies on in a jam)

    What about against Blaine and his Magmar? Falkner and his Pidgeot? Clair and her Dragonair? Silver Conference in Johto against Gary? Ash needed Charizard to pull a 3-0 against Scizor, Golem, and Blastoise. Noland and his Articuno?

    I don't think Pikachu could have won those battles. Ash has relied on Charizard plenty of times to get him out of 'jams.'

    Besides, I say Charizard because Charizard vs. Garchomp would be way more epic than Charizard vs. Pikachu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    What about against Blaine and his Magmar? Falkner and his Pidgeot? Clair and her Dragonair? Silver Conference in Johto against Gary? Ash needed Charizard to pull a 3-0 against Scizor, Golem, and Blastoise. Noland and his Articuno?

    I don't think Pikachu could have won those battles. Ash has relied on Charizard plenty of times to get him out of 'jams.'

    Besides, I say Charizard because Charizard vs. Garchomp would be way more epic than Charizard vs. Pikachu.
    First, it's probably gonna be Charizard or Infernape taking out Garchomp if Ash beats Cynthia.

    Second, Pikachu was always Ash's go to Pokémon. But the power battling was left to others, besides the times when huge Thunderbolts were needed. But in AG once Pikachu learned Iron Tail, it got more powerful. Growing the same as Ash




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  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Torkoal was koed before Metagross even entered the picture :P
    That doesn't change the fact that he could of taken Metagross out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that he could of taken Metagross out.
    Hey look we finally agreed on something XD.

    He could have used withdrawl to tank the meteor mashes and land flamethrowers at opportune times finishing with Overheat.

    but of course then with all that defense boosting meowth would have been boned

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    What about against Blaine and his Magmar?
    Because Ash was gonna use Pikachu till Charizard stepped up saying it wanted to fight. Seriously, go rewatch that if I have to remind you :P

    Falkner and his Pidgeot?
    You wanted Pikachu to sweep Folkner's team? Blame Ash for using Chikorita against Hoothoot, forcing Ash's to use Pikachu early because she couldn't beat it.

    Clair and her Dragonair?
    Only thing I can't make an argument for, though Pikachu had beaten Gyarados after taking some big damage from Hydro Pump and Hyper Beam

    Silver Conference in Johto against Gary? Ash needed Charizard to pull a 3-0 against Scizor, Golem, and Blastoise.
    Because he didn't enter Pikachu in that battle at all. I question why, but I digress

    Noland and his Articuno?
    He could have easily used Pikachu, but I'm sure he figured Articuno's flying abilities meant he should rely on his Fire/Flying type.

    I don't think Pikachu could have won those battles. Ash has relied on Charizard plenty of times to get him out of 'jams.'

    Besides, I say Charizard because Charizard vs. Garchomp would be way more epic than Charizard vs. Pikachu.
    And yet Charizard still doesn't match the number of times Pikachu has been in... so I think it's your nostalgia doing the talking :P

    I'm almost certain the bold is a typo, but I'd like to point out Pikachu would win that battle. And no, I think Pikachu (or anything not named Charizard/Infernape/Torterra) vs Garchomp would be far more epic because it's far more original
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Hey look we finally agreed on something XD.

    He could have used withdrawl to tank the meteor mashes and land flamethrowers at opportune times finishing with Overheat.

    but of course then with all that defense boosting meowth would have been boned
    You mean Iron Defense??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Because Ash was gonna use Pikachu till Charizard stepped up saying it wanted to fight. Seriously, go rewatch that if I have to remind you :P


    You wanted Pikachu to sweep Folkner's team? Blame Ash for using Chikorita against Hoothoot, forcing Ash's to use Pikachu early because she couldn't beat it.


    Only thing I can't make an argument for, though Pikachu had beaten Gyarados after taking some big damage from Hydro Pump and Hyper Beam


    Because he didn't enter Pikachu in that battle at all. I question why, but I digress


    He could have easily used Pikachu, but I'm sure he figured Articuno's flying abilities meant he should rely on his Fire/Flying type.


    And yet Charizard still doesn't match the number of times Pikachu has been in... so I think it's your nostalgia doing the talking :P

    I'm almost certain the bold is a typo, but I'd like to point out Pikachu would win that battle. And no, I think Pikachu (or anything not named Charizard/Infernape/Torterra) vs Garchomp would be far more epic because it's far more original
    I agree pretty much except with Noland and Pikachu VS Charizard. Pikachu would have had a tougher time than Charizard. Also, Charizard only has Thunderbolt to fear from Pikachu. Fly dodging Iron Tail or taking it head on, same with Quick Attack, and Electro Ball is easily over powered...just look VS Lucario. Now if Pikachu could get on Charizard and hit multiple Thunderbolts without getting Seismic Toss'd AND had Volt Tackle, then I would say Pikachu had a better chance




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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    I agree pretty much except with Noland and Pikachu VS Charizard. Pikachu would have had a tougher time than Charizard. Also, Charizard only has Thunderbolt to fear from Pikachu. Fly dodging Iron Tail or taking it head on, same with Quick Attack, and Electro Ball is easily over powered...just look VS Lucario. Now if Pikachu could get on Charizard and hit multiple Thunderbolts without getting Seismic Toss'd AND had Volt Tackle, then I would say Pikachu had a better chance
    Charizard no longer has Seismic Toss... and in this show, everything can apparently get on the backs of Flying types (or things that levitate). So really, I don't see how it's not possible
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Charizard no longer has Seismic Toss... and in this show, everything can apparently get on the backs of Flying types (or things that levitate). So really, I don't see how it's not possible
    As of right now there's a chance he doesn't. But there's still a chance for Charizard to use it in a major battle. Honestly, how was the fight against Dragonite supposed to be called off in the middle of a Seismic Toss? I didn't mean it wasn't possible, but it wouldn't be easy with Charizard




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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Charizard no longer has Seismic Toss... and in this show, everything can apparently get on the backs of Flying types (or things that levitate). So really, I don't see how it's not possible
    pfft, movesets don't even matter anymore. The only thing that matters is the moveset during the battle, everything else is whatever the writers need it to be.

    An example- When did dragonite forgo all of his coverage moves for wing attack and safeguard?
    Paliptoad.
    Etc.

    Though that being said, I somehow doubt they will bring back seismic toss for some reason :X
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    pfft, movesets don't even matter anymore. The only thing that matters is the moveset during the battle, everything else is whatever the writers need it to be.

    An example- When did dragonite forgo all of his coverage moves for wing attack and safeguard?
    Paliptoad.
    Etc.

    Though that being said, I somehow doubt they will bring back seismic toss for some reason :X
    Well seeing as Dragonite still has it's same moveset right now despite the event distribution, not sure where your first part is going

    As for Seismic Toss, I think it's gone, otherwise I'm still waiting for Volt Tackle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Well seeing as Dragonite still has it's same moveset right now despite the event distribution, not sure where your first part is going

    As for Seismic Toss, I think it's gone, otherwise I'm still waiting for Volt Tackle
    wait, wasn't his moveset
    Flamethrower
    Dragon Rush
    Safeguard
    -

    ...opps.

    err uhm, I messed up on that one. xD;

    But still palitoad's moveset and Krokodile for aerial Ace. Those must count.


    ergh volt tackle...I miss you so much ;___;...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Because Ash was gonna use Pikachu till Charizard stepped up saying it wanted to fight. Seriously, go rewatch that if I have to remind you :P


    You wanted Pikachu to sweep Folkner's team? Blame Ash for using Chikorita against Hoothoot, forcing Ash's to use Pikachu early because she couldn't beat it.
    Why not? Kingler, Charizard, and Infernape have gone 3-0 in league battles. Pidgeot was Falkner's main Pokemon too, and much more challenging than Dodrio or Hoothoot.


    Only thing I can't make an argument for, though Pikachu had beaten Gyarados after taking some big damage from Hydro Pump and Hyper Beam
    Yeah, Pikachu just got by Gyrados and couldn't do anything against Dragonair. And Dragonair is Clair's most powerful Pokemon (better than Gyrados).


    Because he didn't enter Pikachu in that battle at all. I question why, but I digress
    Didn't Ash, Misty, and Brock plan out Ash's lineup strategically beforehand to match well against Gary's?


    He could have easily used Pikachu, but I'm sure he figured Articuno's flying abilities meant he should rely on his Fire/Flying type.
    Why didn't he if he could have easily used Pikachu? Ash wouldn't care about the type differences - he just didn't think Pikachu could match up against Articuno. Why else would he make the phone call to Liza to specifically request Charizard?


    And yet Charizard still doesn't match the number of times Pikachu has been in... so I think it's your nostalgia doing the talking :P
    That's an unfair comparison. Charizard only shows up once in a while. Pikachu is always with Ash. We can also talk about the number of times where Pikachu failed in 'jams.' Like against Lucario and Meowth.

    I'm almost certain the bold is a typo, but I'd like to point out Pikachu would win that battle. And no, I think Pikachu (or anything not named Charizard/Infernape/Torterra) vs Garchomp would be far more epic because it's far more original
    I talked about this in another thread, but if Pikachu fought to its potential, then it would be a draw. On average, Charizard is better because Pikachu lacks consistency.

    No way...I would rather see two dragons (well dragon-like for Zard) duking it out than seeing Pikachu Quick Attack and spam Iron Tail against Garchomp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Well seeing as Dragonite still has it's same moveset right now despite the event distribution, not sure where your first part is going

    As for Seismic Toss, I think it's gone, otherwise I'm still waiting for Volt Tackle
    Getting Volt Tackle back would be nice too. I see Electo Ball as an okay finisher, but Volt Tackle has a lot more power.

    If Seismic Toss just disappears like that, it'd be pretty disappointing. That move has a lot of history...it was even shown a lot in the flashbacks

    @Maldread...Pikachu later swept Roxanne. They wanted one last good battle for Charizard so they beefed up Fawkner. It was also to reel everyone in at the start of Johto
    Last edited by TheFonz; 13th March 2013 at 5:47 AM.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Why not? Kingler, Charizard, and Infernape have gone 3-0 in league battles. Pidgeot was Falkner's main Pokemon too, and much more challenging than Dodrio or Hoothoot.
    You can make a case for Infernape as it took prior damage, but Golem offered no threat to Charizard and Scizor had a severe disadavantage. Charizard was basically in tip top shape when he fought Gary's Blastoise (who had taken a bit of damage from Bayleef and Muk) but no, Pikachu sweeping the first gym would have been considered DEM by everyone here and you know it :P (He would go on to do this to Wattson)

    Yeah, Pikachu just got by Gyrados and couldn't do anything against Dragonair. And Dragonair is Clair's most powerful Pokemon (better than Gyrados).
    Great, you found the one time Pikachu couldn't do something thanks to a plot step up made in the episode before it

    Didn't Ash, Misty, and Brock plan out Ash's lineup strategically beforehand to match well against Gary's?
    Ash wasn't certain at all who Gary would use (other then maybe Blastiose) and the other two were surprise to see Charizard, meaning Ash didn't tell them anything. It should have been starter vs starter, but since Gary didn't use Blastoise like he did Umbreon, I guess they figured Umbreon was his new main, which was why Pikachu sat out I assume.

    Why didn't he if he could have easily used Pikachu? Ash wouldn't care about the type differences - he just didn't think Pikachu could match up against Articuno. Why else would he make the phone call to Liza to specifically request Charizard?
    Yet he thought Pikachu was a perfect match for everything else... face it, it wasn't so much for type advantage as it was for the whole flying thing. Charizard could match Articuno's flying capabilities while putting up a better fight then Noctowl and Swellow. Not to mention for the fan service and they likely planned for Pikachu to one shot Regice in the finale.

    That's an unfair comparison. Charizard only shows up once in a while. Pikachu is always with Ash. We can also talk about the number of times where Pikachu failed in 'jams.' Like against Lucario and Meowth.
    Then it's fair for me to say Charizard was the reason Ash lost the first two leagues he entered ^_^

    I talked about this in another thread, but if Pikachu fought to its potential, then it would be a draw. On average, Charizard is better because Pikachu lacks consistency.

    No way...I would rather see two dragons (well dragon-like for Zard) duking it out than seeing Pikachu Quick Attack and spam Iron Tail against Garchomp.
    Right, because consistency is something this show is known for... Your telling me Pikachu solely sweeping through everything from here on out would make for a good show, all for the case of proving he's Ash's best?

    Nope, boring *yawns* That whole dragon things been done to death, Sceptile would make for a better fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    You can make a case for Infernape as it took prior damage, but Golem offered no threat to Charizard and Scizor had a severe disadavantage. Charizard was basically in tip top shape when he fought Gary's Blastoise (who had taken a bit of damage from Bayleef and Muk) but no, Pikachu sweeping the first gym would have been considered DEM by everyone here and you know it :P (He would go on to do this to Wattson)
    Go watch the episode. Charizard injures himself attempting to carry Golem among other things. Personally it would make more sense to people if Ash intentionally tells pikachu he won't use him in the first Gym match because he wants to raise/teach his newer pokemon. Its better than this 1v1 getting pwned by vigoroth nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Then it's fair for me to say Charizard was the reason Ash lost the first two leagues he entered ^_^
    Charizard wasn't obedient for the 1st league and Ash won the Orange league so I have no idea what you are talking about.
    If you are trying to refer to the Johto championship Charizard fought in probably one of the most epic battles ever in the Pokemon anime so again you are just being ridiculous

    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Right, because consistency is something this show is known for... Your telling me Pikachu solely sweeping through everything from here on out would make for a good show, all for the case of proving he's Ash's best?
    No it won't but it also proves that he isn't Ash's strongest pokemon. You have to realize:
    Being the most popular, most used, favorite, pokemon =/= the strongest in Ash's team. Its just the most popular
    Pikachu is Ash's favorite pokemon hands down but he isn't Ash's strongest. Sceptile, Infernape, Charizard, Snorlax can all probably win or at least draw in a fight against Pikachu.
    My opinion is being based off of match history and logic here, not some series of vague one sided beliefs where one can't see beyond the fact that their favorite isn't being praised as the strongest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Nope, boring *yawns* That whole dragon things been done to death, Sceptile would make for a better fight.
    If they were done to death I wonder why many people love those episodes. I admit to rewatching some of those occasionally. Hell I watched the latest Charizard vs Dragonite episode multiple times already. Damn animations were awesome.
    Last edited by DoctorDark; 13th March 2013 at 11:16 AM.

    Shoutout to tazsaints from Deviantart for the photo.
    I always love dragon based teams.
    I know Charizard isn't a dragon type but he is in the Dragon Egg-group so close enough.

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    [QUOTE=DoctorDark;15797784]Go watch the episode. Charizard injures himself attempting to carry Golem among other things. Personally it would make more sense to people if Ash intentionally tells pikachu he won't use him in the first Gym match because he wants to raise/teach his newer pokemon. Its better than this 1v1 getting pwned by vigoroth nonsense.[Quote]
    BS, Seismic Toss strain does not count as damage and Heracross was Ash's only other new Pokemon at the time (for Falkner), so it would have come down to Squirtle or Bulbasaur then. They do it because of how in sync Ash and Pikachu are, when one of them is new to something, they're both new

    Charizard wasn't obedient for the 1st league and Ash won the Orange league so I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Clearly a typo because Charizard was disobedient. And what generates in you mind to consider OI a league? I'm talking about real leagues as in Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova. Charizard was literally the reason Ash lost the Indigo and Johto league.

    If you are trying to refer to the Johto championship Charizard fought in probably one of the most epic battles ever in the Pokemon anime so again you are just being ridiculous
    Right, I'm the one being ridiculous... says the guy who thinks Pikachu has to be 100% all the time to match Charizard, despite the fact Charizard will never suffer that fate being off the show :P

    No it won't but it also proves that he isn't Ash's strongest pokemon. You have to realize:
    Being the most popular, most used, favorite, pokemon =/= the strongest in Ash's team. Its just the most popular
    Pikachu is Ash's favorite pokemon hands down but he isn't Ash's strongest. Sceptile, Infernape, Charizard, Snorlax can all probably win or at least draw in a fight against Pikachu.
    My opinion is being based off of match history and logic here, not some series of vague one sided beliefs where one can't see beyond the fact that their favorite isn't being praised as the strongest.
    You obviously don't know me then if you think Pikachu's my favorite... especially from my name, avatar, and signature. No, I'm just not blinded by whatever it is that people see in thinking Charizard was Ash's starter Pokemon, because if there's one thing about this show, it's that your starter is your best, aka the Unova league. (even though Ash was forced to lose at Top 8)

    If they were done to death I wonder why many people love those episodes. I admit to rewatching some of those occasionally. Hell I watched the latest Charizard vs Dragonite episode multiple times already. Damn animations were awesome.
    Well clearly only the nostalgic fans that think Charizard's the only Pokemon on Earth. That about sums up every post on youtube right there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorDark View Post
    Charizard wasn't obedient for the 1st league
    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Clearly a typo because Charizard was disobedient.
    That's exactly what he said though, Joltik. No typo.


    ¬‿¬

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Clearly a typo because Charizard was disobedient. And what generates in you mind to consider OI a league? I'm talking about real leagues as in Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova. Charizard was literally the reason Ash lost the Indigo and Johto league.
    I clearly said Charizard was being disobedient in Kanto so while it is his fault that Ash lost its no indicator of his strength. Also claiming that Charizard was the reason Ash lost Johto is the same as claiming the reason why Ash lost the Unova league is because Pikachu lost to freaking Lucario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Right, I'm the one being ridiculous... says the guy who thinks Pikachu has to be 100% all the time to match Charizard, despite the fact Charizard will never suffer that fate being off the show :P
    Does Pikachu's 100% strength continuity break the show? Yes. Does Pikachu have to be Ash's strongest? No. There's a reason why Pikachu stays on the show 100% of the time while Charizard leaves and trains is precisely for this reason. Pikachu ISN'T Ash's strongest and never will be because of precisely this reason. He DOESN'T need to be Ash's strongest. He just needs to be his favorite. Charizard's ROLE in this show is to be Ash's strongest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    You obviously don't know me then if you think Pikachu's my favorite... especially from my name, avatar, and signature. No, I'm just not blinded by whatever it is that people see in thinking Charizard was Ash's starter Pokemon, because if there's one thing about this show, it's that your starter is your best, aka the Unova league. (even though Ash was forced to lose at Top 8)
    I never said Pikachu is your favorite I just said you are biased. Your presumed belief that your starter is your strongest is thrown out the window by Iris and Dragonite. (Don't even try to convince people that Axew is somehow stronger than Dragonite).


    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Well clearly only the nostalgic fans that think Charizard's the only Pokemon on Earth. That about sums up every post on youtube right there.
    What's your issue with people being happy that their favorite is back? Charizard appearing almost always indicates some epic battles are coming up (because Charizard is his strongest) which is why I'm excited to see him come back. Also there are a LOT of people who love Dragon pokemon and Charizard is one of his only fully evolved clearly "dragonish" pokemon (If you don't count Sceptile). Also Charizard is a great source of happy nostalgia for a lot of old viewers of the anime (myself included) which is something that only happens if the character is gone for a large part of the show (people will prob feel nostalgic seeing Bulbasaur or Squirtle). I can only imagine how excited people would be if he somehow fully evolved his Gible into a Garchomp.

    Shoutout to tazsaints from Deviantart for the photo.
    I always love dragon based teams.
    I know Charizard isn't a dragon type but he is in the Dragon Egg-group so close enough.

  24. #249
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    Ash is a pretty is a pretty good trainer. The writers make him lose sometimes for the plots sake and to appeal to the newer audiences. He is also depicted as 10 still, ere is no reason to expect Einstein tactics from him, he believes in him self and follows his dream. There is no need to think be is a bad trainer, he beat many important trainers who had years and years of training. A really good feat for a 10 year old. Dont say "I'd be better" based on your gameplay through the games because those are different things.

    My opinion to Ash's strongest Pokemon: Charizard Snorlax Pikachu Sceptile.


    Number of Genwunners = 100
    Number of people accused of being a Genwunner = 100 000 000 000 000 000
    Number of people complaning about Genwunners = 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

  25. #250
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    If we're talking about Pikachu being the strongest...

    Eh, thats debatable.
    VS charizard?
    It depends who's strength is wanting to be shown off.

    To be honest, if we were to pit pikachu in a battle AGAINST charizard, I can freaken guarantee you that it won't be in it's powered down state. Pikachu would be putting up a fight, if not winning that match.

    As for whether pikachu is more reliable...

    Smh, Charizard is. Its a smack to my pride to my pride as a pikachu fan, but charizard has more wins then losses comparative to pikachu....But basically its because he's consistent and doesn't appear nearly as much.

    Pikachu will be the one to have an epic conclusion. Ash's final match will have pikachu kicking ***, or barely surviving and winning. Its just that...

    we all know the anime never ends. lol

    Poor pikachu, power undermined because the anime needs to continue with the same character. Personally, I don't hate it that much, but it can be annoying in debates like this :X
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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