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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    I don't think Ash is weak. If he won every battle then the show wouldn't be interesting.
    Exactly. I'd hate it if he won all the time. He would have won 5 Pokemon Leagues(6 if you count OI) which would've been overkill. Look at other popular animes like DBZ and Yugioh, Goku and Yugi didn't win all the time but they at least won a lot.

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    The only time Goku lost was because Gohan got cocky when fighting Cell and I hardly call Raditz a lost because it was a self sacrifice. Of coarse if your talking younger GOku, it did take him 3 times to win the world tournament. As for Yugi, he lost only twice...once because of Kaiba's emo tactic and once because he forced himself to play the Seal of Orichalcos. But he still never lost any tournament he entered, unlike Ash.

    So yes, in terms of Ash's anime brethren, he is weak. No one counts the OI league seriously, not even the characters themselves (his mom used the trophy for exercise). You can only make an experienced guy lose so many times to where it gets just as boring as you guys claiming him winning all the time would. Literally every Pokemon fan that still watches the anime can easily predict Ash won't win the league and they guess right every time. DP almost had us fooled for a bit introducing all the Elite 4 members and Cynthia.

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  3. #328
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    he's not too weak. i just want him to stop making stupid rookie mistakes. it would also be good if he had fully evolved pokemon by the league, or at least have them evolve at least once. he isn't really weak, but he could be a tiny bit stronger... just a little.
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  4. #329
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    The writers want him to be weaker than he should just so they can gain more $$$. This is why some of his Pokemon don't evolve. Because they are "just too cute". He also makes mistakes in battles just so the kids can get what's wrong with that move.

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by UbersSuck20 View Post
    The writers want him to be weaker than he should just so they can gain more $$$. This is why some of his Pokemon don't evolve. Because they are "just too cute". He also makes mistakes in battles just so the kids can get what's wrong with that move.
    There's nothing wrong with an underdog but Ash has been one for FAR TOO LONG. Maybe it's for new audiences but why not make his story last through Kanto and move onto another Trainer (who comes across another Pikachu (clone) for mascot purposes). They might do the same damn thing with the new character but it'd make more sense than keeping Ash and stagnating the character.

  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    The only time Goku lost was because Gohan got cocky when fighting Cell and I hardly call Raditz a lost because it was a self sacrifice. Of coarse if your talking younger GOku, it did take him 3 times to win the world tournament. As for Yugi, he lost only twice...once because of Kaiba's emo tactic and once because he forced himself to play the Seal of Orichalcos. But he still never lost any tournament he entered, unlike Ash.

    So yes, in terms of Ash's anime brethren, he is weak. No one counts the OI league seriously, not even the characters themselves (his mom used the trophy for exercise). You can only make an experienced guy lose so many times to where it gets just as boring as you guys claiming him winning all the time would. Literally every Pokemon fan that still watches the anime can easily predict Ash won't win the league and they guess right every time. DP almost had us fooled for a bit introducing all the Elite 4 members and Cynthia.

    I'd rather be bored of him winning then sick of him losing
    Just wanted to make a correction to Yugi's losses. Yugi would have won against Kaiba, but he would have lost against Rafael even if he didn't play the Seal of Orichalcos. Strange enough, both losses were because of *not spoiling real name* Yami Yugi being a sore loser, which showed why Yugi was meant to surpass him, albeit in a badly written anime way.

    Except with Ash, he regressed and hasn't improved from his losses in the league(which used to represent his abilities).You could make arguments on how DP Ash improved on how AG Ash lost and how AG Ash improved on OS Ash's loss. But in BW, Ash lost the same way as DP, but against a much much much much weaker opponent.

    Just to make clear what I said, I could argue that Ash lost in Johto because of relying on one or two key Pokémon too much, while AG Ash had a good team that was somewhat more balanced. But AG Ash lost because of using the same team and not swapping them out correctly during battles. In DP, Ash was better with switching and used his reserves but was beaten because of having less experience than some
    guy taking out an entire region with Darkrai. Instead of giving Ash more experience and having him progress...he becomes as bad if not worse than Johto Ash




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  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    The only time Goku lost was because Gohan got cocky when fighting Cell and I hardly call Raditz a lost because it was a self sacrifice. Of coarse if your talking younger GOku, it did take him 3 times to win the world tournament. As for Yugi, he lost only twice...once because of Kaiba's emo tactic and once because he forced himself to play the Seal of Orichalcos. But he still never lost any tournament he entered, unlike Ash.
    Didn't Yugi also lose to Rebecca? I seem to recall that he surrendered. Oh, and he also lost to Pegasus in their first match.

    Anyway, I don't think Ash has to win every battle in order to be viewed as a strong trainer. As I've said many times, I just want some consistency. I want him to retain information that he's gained from previous battles instead of always conveniently forgetting things. The fact that he regressed at the start of BW didn't help either as it only affirmed that the writers really don't care about keeping things consistent. They're just willing to take the easy route instead of properly handling Ash's character imo.

  8. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    I don't think Ash is weak. If he won every battle then the show wouldn't be interesting.
    If Ash isn't weak why hasn't he ever won a region's pokemon league tournament?

    Also, when you play the pokemon games do you lose a lot? I mean winning all of the time, by your definition, isn't interesting so I'm curious how often u lose just to spice things up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Didn't Yugi also lose to Rebecca? I seem to recall that he surrendered. Oh, and he also lost to Pegasus in their first match.

    Anyway, I don't think Ash has to win every battle in order to be viewed as a strong trainer. As I've said many times, I just want some consistency. I want him to retain information that he's gained from previous battles instead of always conveniently forgetting things. The fact that he regressed at the start of BW didn't help either as it only affirmed that the writers really don't care about keeping things consistent. They're just willing to take the easy route instead of properly handling Ash's character imo.
    Yugi surrendered...but he would have won if he played the Soul Release card he drew weakening Shadow Ghoul enough for Dark Magician to wipe it out along with Rebecca's life points. Yugi would have most likely won against Pegasus if the time hadn't run out on Summoned Skull's attack.

    I agree. We don't want Ash to win everything, just better consistency. Even then, not perfect consistency. Ash was doing great until BW




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  10. #335

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    The protagonist is too weak...

    ...in power, NO. But in coordination, YES.
    Last edited by ☭Azimuth_055☣; 9th April 2013 at 8:55 AM.




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    Underdogs are fine. Stupid protagonists are fine. The resetting is fine (be fair, he represents the player and the source material has the exact same player quest every time).

    What's not fine is how they write Ash's stupid resetting underdogness. There are plenty of other anime protagonists that are similar that are much better written. Take Gon from Hunter x Hunter for instance. He's quite stupid and reckless, and the majority of people he faces are much stronger than him. But he'll win if he does something clever. Or if he loses he'll show his progress by achieving something smaller during the battle. He won't lose to people he should have no trouble beating, and he won't win just because he loves his friends more than his enemies do.

    Basically, the anime should focus on telling the same good story over and over. Rather than having varying degrees of okay and bad.

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    Ash is weak, excuse me because I haven't officially watched the series since Kanto I've just caught one-two shows in every other season.
    He's definitely the underdog, I'll admit having him win all or the majority of the time would get a little boring however I'd rather have that then see him lose so much. I know the show is based around children so they can relate to Ash. Even though he's gone through how many regions now(Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, an Unova) and yet the writers don't show that he's greatly improved. In fact I think he's more of a rookie now then what he was in Kanto. I know for as long as the show stays on Ash will always stay the same age. An Ash still makes rookie mistakes time and time again, even on things that he's done in the past but "oh can't remember what to do better make the same mistake". You see in other shows the characters will learn an improve upon their experiences and become better, however this does not apply to Ash in anyway. It's like every time he enter's into a new region he's an absolute noob again, because they don't show him remembering his past experiences which doesn't allow him to improve. He has to pretty much learn everything all over again.
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    They should move on to a new trainer...
    Or Satoshi has to get stronger AND EVOLVE HIS POKEMON!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bariokie View Post
    They should move on to a new trainer...
    Or Satoshi has to get stronger AND EVOLVE HIS POKEMON!
    I don't mind the lack of evolution but I'd like an explanation for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    I don't mind the lack of evolution but I'd like an explanation for it.
    I believe Ash doesn't care if his pokemon evolve or not. I think he's said before that he tries to prove that his pokemon don't need to evolve just to become stronger.
    I remember watching the episode "Bulbasaur's Mysterious Garden". Ash's bulbasaur is captured by other bulbasaur's and taken to a giant tree where a Venusaur is. It comes to the point where the bulbasaurs start to evolve but Ash's bulbasaur doesn't want to evolve so it fights it. This makes the Venusaur angry and tries to force bulbasaur to evolve but Ash steps in to say if bulbasaur doesn't want to evolve , they can't force it to.
    An Ash giving his pokemon the choice to evolve or not has also been shown with Pikachu a couple times. The first time being their gym battle with Lt. Surge, Nurse Joy gives Ash a thunderstone to make pikachu evolve an become stronger. However Ash let's Pikachu decide if it wants to evolve which of course Pikachu refuses. Ash keeps the thunderstone just in case if Pikachu ever wanted to evolve. He reveals it again during Sinnoh when Pikachu fights another Raichu and loses. Again Ash gives Pikachu the choice weather to evolve or not.
    Last edited by Zyon; 9th April 2013 at 9:19 PM.
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  16. #341
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    One problem in keeping Ash is that watching his story for all 16 season and counting for his entire journey can be pretty maddening. At least, with other Shonen series, they had more of a story to tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    One problem in keeping Ash is that watching his story for all 16 season and counting for his entire journey can be pretty maddening. At least, with other Shonen series, they had more of a story to tell.
    You're right but this isn't really like most other shonen animes so it might be better to switch to another show if it isn't working for you. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that hundreds of kids in Japan don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    You're right but this isn't really like most other shonen animes so it might be better to switch to another show if it isn't working for you. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that hundreds of kids in Japan don't.
    Maybe some of them do. Of course, we can't ask them all, now can we?

    Plus, I doubt anyone could watch Pokemon from episode 1 to the current episodes in a row. The problem with no ending in sight is that it makes Ash prattling on about how he's become a Pokemon Master just plain depressing.
    Last edited by matt0044; 13th April 2013 at 2:39 AM.

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    it gets kind of annoying hearing ash say 'i want to be a pokemon master' and we know before he's started that he won't succeed. His pokemon keep weak moves and don't evolve, but they still beat really strong pokemon every once in awhile. if he trained he might succeed, but the writers won't let that happen.
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  20. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy909 View Post
    it gets kind of annoying hearing ash say 'i want to be a pokemon master' and we know before he's started that he won't succeed. His pokemon keep weak moves and don't evolve, but they still beat really strong pokemon every once in awhile. if he trained he might succeed, but the writers won't let that happen.
    It's like they're taunting us or deluding themselves into thinking this is going somewhere. This wouldn't be so bad if Ash wasn't trying to achieve any goal and was just enjoying the journey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy909 View Post
    it gets kind of annoying hearing ash say 'i want to be a pokemon master' and we know before he's started that he won't succeed. His pokemon keep weak moves and don't evolve, but they still beat really strong pokemon every once in awhile. if he trained he might succeed, but the writers won't let that happen.
    You mean like Naruto was doing? Who's to know if he'll ever get to his dream fighting all the time either? And the reason Ash used to say this all the time was to show kids what he wanted to be and why he was even battling in the first place. If he didn't do that, then we would be asking why would he be just collecting badges for the rest of his life. But that doesn't mean Ash is weak. It means that since he's still ten,(which he is) he has still a long way to go. And as I've sadi before, since you know he isn't going to get anywhere anytime soon, atleast try to enjoy the pokemon, the story or you can quit watching and and do less complaining. Because that doesn't make it fun either to hear people bash a show all the time and still watch it. Especially for a show that's been going on this long.
    Last edited by Caseydia; 13th April 2013 at 8:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    You mean like Naruto was doing? Who's to know if he'll ever get to his dream fighting all the time either?
    Well, the series is said to have a conclusion coming unlike Pokemon. Plus, I don't really like it there as much as I do with Pokemon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Well, the series is said to have a conclusion coming unlike Pokemon. Plus, I don't really like it there as much as I do with Pokemon.
    One Piece and Naruto, King of the Pirates and Hokage. If you're not enjoying it anymore, you can always stop you know. I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but is there any point in watching a show you aren't enjoying anymore? Pokemon isn't a deep show in the first place, I keep saying over and over it's a marketing tool meant to sell merchandise and its main focus isn't to tell a story but sell product. It's a show about the journey, not the destination, it's about everything in between. Pokemon Master is name-dropped every once in a while to tell the audience what Ash's vague goal is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Pokemon isn't a deep show in the first place,
    Who says I wanted a "deep" show with Pokemon? I just want a good coherent story and depth like with Evangelion (god forbid) isn't a necessity. And at least One Piece (not much of a Naruto fan) has actual substance to its story arcs to tie us over with stuff being accomplished as dragged out as it might be (for better or worse).

    Also, I believe this post I found explains another complaint regarding Ash:
    I'm sick of the tagline that either the narrator says after a tournament or end of a saga, or Ash talks to Pikachu or a rival after a contest is over something along the lines of;

    Narrator:
    "Ash will continue to train harder in order to realize his dream of becoming a Pokemon Master!"

    -Ends up getting his *** kicked AGAIN in the next regional competition, prompting the narrator to once again state that quote at the end of a league

    Ash to Pikachu:
    "Don't worry Pikachu the two of us are just going to keep training to become stronger and stronger!!"

    -We might see Ash train one or two episodes if we're lucky to see them indeed get stronger or at least learn some new moves that either get used once to help them win and then ash magically gets amnesia and becomes stupid again or he gets his butt whopped repeatedly while still spouting the same nonsense due to no strategy in his battles just random attacking repeatedly

    Ash to rival;

    Rival: Just you wait the next time we meet things will be different so I'm going to keep training so watch out the next time we meet!!"
    Ash: You bet, but I don't think so, I'm going to keep training too and get stronger and stronger!! Right Pikachu?
    Pikachu: Pika, Pika!!"

    -Never sees that rival again

    See what I mean here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Who says I wanted a "deep" show with Pokemon? I just want a good coherent story and depth like with Evangelion (god forbid) isn't a necessity. And at least One Piece (not much of a Naruto fan) has actual substance to its story arcs to tie us over with stuff being accomplished as dragged out as it might be (for better or worse).

    Also, I believe this post I found explains another complaint regarding Ash:
    You're watching the wrong show.

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