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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    You're watching the wrong show.
    Like I said, I wasn't looking for depth in Pokemon nor do I expect it to be DA BEST THING EVA!!!!111!!1SHIFT11!!!. Hell, why'd you bold the Evangelion part when I said I didn't want it?

    I don't really hate the Anime a lot. I just see that it could be better but the staff seems too lazy to give a toss. Doesn't mean I can't call it out on this and it doesn't mean I'm going to eat it up without a complaint.

    Stop brushing my argument aside with that cop-out line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Like I said, I wasn't looking for depth in Pokemon nor do I expect it to be DA BEST THING EVA!!!!111!!1SHIFT11!!!. Hell, why'd you bold the Evangelion part when I said I didn't want it?

    I don't really hate the Anime a lot. I just see that it could be better but the staff seems too lazy to give a toss. Doesn't mean I can't call it out on this and it doesn't mean I'm going to eat it up without a complaint.

    Stop brushing my argument aside with that cop-out line.
    I literally don't feel like getting into an argument with you, they always go in circles nor do I care if you complain.

    You ask this question very often and are given the same answer everytime, Pokemon's main aim is merchandise and not creating a fitting ending to Ash's story. Pokemon has a very predictable outline, gyms, rival, companions, rinse and repeat.

    That's just how it is, you can take it or leave it.

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    I sort of agree with matt there. I wish Pokemon has a general plotline to follow, not just like Doraemon or something. It is an anime after all. I want some continuity, some consistency. Of course, that'll never be done, which is pretty sad.

    Also, I'm not sure why Pokemon can't step up in term of plotline though. There has been animes that aren't heavily plot central but still has a general plot to follow. Detective Conan and One Piece gets a higher rank according to source and both aren't really plot intensive either. And don't talk to me about how the newer audiences can't follow through. Detective Conan started its storyline from Episode 1, which aired at 1996. The anime had been going on for a long time like Pokemon. Yet there's still plot, despite the fact that 90% of the episodes are just random murders. Pokemon doesn't have to have a intensive plot, really. An occasional plot bread crumbs could just bring continuity. Keep the badges, keep the leagues, change the casts if you want, but don't make the anime feel like standalone sagas.

    And I like the Pokemon anime for its own reason, but it's just one of the few things it could improve on.

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  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanicLanturn View Post
    I sort of agree with matt there. I wish Pokemon has a general plotline to follow, not just like Doraemon or something. It is an anime after all. I want some continuity, some consistency. Of course, that'll never be done, which is pretty sad.

    Also, I'm not sure why Pokemon can't step up in term of plotline though. There has been animes that aren't heavily plot central but still has a general plot to follow. Detective Conan and One Piece gets a higher rank according to source and both aren't really plot intensive either. And don't talk to me about how the newer audiences can't follow through. Detective Conan started its storyline from Episode 1, which aired at 1996. The anime had been going on for a long time like Pokemon. Yet there's still plot, despite the fact that 90% of the episodes are just random murders. Pokemon doesn't have to have a intensive plot, really. An occasional plot bread crumbs could just bring continuity. Keep the badges, keep the leagues, change the casts if you want, but don't make the anime feel like standalone sagas.

    And I like the Pokemon anime for its own reason, but it's just one of the few things it could improve on.
    This... pretty much sums up my feelings.

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    I also agree, unfortunately. Pokemon could be so much more than just a marketing tool. I'm aware of the target audience, but they could aim at a wider range, so that said audience doesn't lose interest when they grow up.

    Before anyone asks, I don't only watch Pokemon for the writing.
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  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioluigifan05 View Post
    I also agree, unfortunately. Pokemon could be so much more than just a marketing tool. I'm aware of the target audience, but they could aim at a wider range, so that said audience doesn't lose interest when they grow up.
    Plus, the wider appeal means more consumers.

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioluigifan05 View Post
    I also agree, unfortunately. Pokemon could be so much more than just a marketing tool. I'm aware of the target audience, but they could aim at a wider range, so that said audience doesn't lose interest when they grow up.

    Before anyone asks, I don't only watch Pokemon for the writing.
    This is why I much prefer the Manga; it may just help a lot for the marketing, but it allows our characters to evolve, and is not focused on entertainment and gimmicky plots. Like, most of our filler episodes are centred on COTDs; the manga has very little of that, and whenever there is a free volume that isn't focused on a gym/rival/league/villainous team battle, we have actual development for the characters.

    Apart of me wants to say that Ash should have had personal evolution in his character, and another part wants me to say that the series is too repetitive for him. Ash makes new friends in characters like Iris and Dawn, and watches them depart, however he shows no further emotions other than friendship. I know this is aimed at children, but if we have characters like Brock flirting, we could always even have him blushing at girls he likes, or even more obvious hints here and there.

    I also think we need something new in the series. The constant "Go to a new region, bring nothing else but Pikachu, make new friends and rivals, try and beat the league and repeat" is really boring now. In Best Wishes' final season, it's more of a filler now and we're actually seeing a nice story unfold in the character of N. His beliefs are pretty different from Ash's, and because of that, we're seeing a nice change in the anime right there. Now, this isn't thanks to Ash, but thanks to a new character and story taking it's toll. If Ash was doing a Frontier or gym tourney of sorts, we'd probably wouldn't be seeing this.

    So overall, I think our protagonist is slightly weak, because of the marketing, but at the same time, we need some further change in the anime. More filler sagas like Best Wishes season 3 where old and new characters/pokemon come, less fillers (I know this season has loads of fillers, but it's still my arguement in getting rid of less fillers) and focus more on the characters and their evolutions. Even if it has to be dumbed down for the younger children and made comical; I'd still take it.
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  8. #358
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    The main problem is not only the lack of appeal to older fans (MLP (which I don't watch) is a marketing tool, but still has an adult male following. Also, Avatar is loved by a wide age range), and the repetition (you'd expect an anime about Pokemon to be fresh for thousands of episodes, but alas, its too formulaic).

    For a gaming example, the Legend of Zelda was a fad back in the 80s, but still has a large following (though not like before), because they actually remember that there's more to Zelda than beating up monsters.

    Yeah, I played Zelda back then to explore new areas and beat up monsters, but now that I'm older, in addition to that, I play for story, gameplay, etc.

    I am also not saying anything is wrong with marketing, but it shouldn't be the sole/main focus of the anime.

    This is not a jab against BW (I do enjoy that series), just at the general direction of the anime).
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  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by marioluigifan05 View Post
    The main problem is not only the lack of appeal to older fans (MLP (which I don't watch) is a marketing tool, but still has an adult male following. Also, Avatar is loved by a wide age range), and the repetition (you'd expect an anime about Pokemon to be fresh for thousands of episodes, but alas, its too formulaic).

    For a gaming example, the Legend of Zelda was a fad back in the 80s, but still has a large following (though not like before), because they actually remember that there's more to Zelda than beating up monsters.

    Yeah, I played Zelda back then to explore new areas and beat up monsters, but now that I'm older, in addition to that, I play for story, gameplay, etc.

    I am also not saying anything is wrong with marketing, but it shouldn't be the sole/main focus of the anime.

    This is not a jab against BW (I do enjoy that series), just at the general direction of the anime).
    I agree about the lack of appeal to the older fans, but I'm iffy on the marketing. It's pretty much the main focus of the anime now, but the series is doing better as it's bringing some nostalgia to us older fans (E.g, Mewtwo's new form, Butterfree and Charizard returning, Best Wishes styled flashbacks etc.)

    But yeah, agree with you 100%
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  10. #360

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    Safe to say that Ash isn't weak.

    It's just the random instances where he turns stupid for no reason that makes him look weak, which are very plenty.

  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    Safe to say that Ash isn't weak.

    It's just the random instances where he turns stupid for no reason that makes him look weak, which are very plenty.
    This. He's what the anime wants him to be and for some reason in this saga, he wanted him to be a lesser trainer than he was in DP. I wasn't really bothered by it until he lost a match where he had a numbers advantage in the Unova League. That's not exactly going out of the Unova League on a high. I mean Ash did well in Unova but Cameron still was able to beat him without using all 6 of his Pokémon. That's not the way the viewers want to see their protagonist get eliminated from a major tournament.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    This. He's what the anime wants him to be and for some reason in this saga, he wanted him to be a lesser trainer than he was in DP. I wasn't really bothered by it until he lost a match where he had a numbers advantage in the Unova League. That's not exactly going out of the Unova League on a high. I mean Ash did well in Unova but Cameron still was able to beat him without using all 6 of his Pokémon. That's not the way the viewers want to see their protagonist get eliminated from a major tournament.
    But that is exactly what makes Ash weak, at least in Unova. I will agree that he was far from weak in the Orange Islands, Johto (once he brought back his Kanto Pokémon), AG, and Sinnoh. In fact, he was quite strong. It's just that in Unova, the writers had him throw it all away and make him terribly weak, possibly more so than his first run through Kanto. Unlike then, he hasn't seemed to grow during the region and learn from his mistakes. It also doesn't help that the crop of Unova League participants did not seem to exude a great deal of strength. Many trainers seemed to rely on one really strong Pokémon and once that Pokémon was beaten, they were finished unless their opponent had the same problem, which many of them did.
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    When i look back you could actually tell that writers did build up on everything Ash learned and accomplished before being at his finest in DP as trainer. Not to mention battles, rivalries and pokemon teams had lot of thought put into it being developed in detailed and complex way.

    But because of marketing and writers hesitation in taking protagonist forward we ended with rehash of what we used to follow before continuing on with endless, repetitive formula rinse and repeat.

    Shame because there are so many ways to take his character forward without losing his appeal and relatability with younger generations.Even if he won Sinnoh league and challenged E4 could this really count as "end"?
    Not really because judging by what one of E4 Lucian said champion league is just one in line of several steps trainer need to accomplish to become master. So its not like Ash journey had to necessarily end with this taking him as experienced trainer forward by battling stronger trainers, learning about new ways of battling and pokemon trainer and entering privilege very acquiring tasks similar to Battle Frontier. Hell they could also elaborate more on whole connection between him and Ho-oh which shows himself only to special, exceptional trainers or his past introducing someone like father.

    Way i see it, it would be much better for change if we get build up on Ash story taking him forward instead of necessarily wrapping everything up after wining one big tournament or continuing on with endless cycle main protagonist is currently stuck into. When i see other anime like Beyblade where accomplished characters like Tyson or Gingka have sequel to their stories after becoming champions in world, or Bakugan where Dan and others grow through complex, more substantial way i know how writers could certainly pull of much more with Ash character too. Its just their hesitation and lack of incentive to break mold and change current repetitive formula this anime follows.

    But its not only Ash, there was clearly left room and several unfinished things in Misty, May, Max etc stories too being shame that writers instead of taking advantage of popular, successful characters taking them forward, have us learn new things, build on their characterization with others etc rather choose to give us rehash of what we saw before cycling through companions like they're on assembly line ending unfinished and forgotten. Which indirectly damage Ash storyline since there's no familiar face and established friendship, story between him and companion which transfers to next region with sharing history, flashbacks and ties with ex sagas bringing more continuity and what Ash accomplished in past until now.
    Reusing them doing sequel of established story would be certainly something new and exciting than abandonment which brings nothing for continuity and prevents previous protagonist to be used to full potential, .

    Which is recipe for bringing new angle to anime by injecting new and unpredictable twist ,maintaining people interest and reaching beyond current audience attracting more older fans toward it.

    Current cliched, add nauseum formula isn't bringing anything turbulent in development of anime driving force Ash and lack of coherent, continuity bind story, constant cycling etc is surely taking away from anime identity with show losing on its cohesion. stable cast and plot driven story taking away from protagonist credibility and everything he learned so far as trainer.

    Writers should look up to other anime like One Piece, Inazuma Eleven Go or Bakugan. They could learn a lot from them and how to develop characters in more meaningful way and keep anime ties with past regions, older friends which left impact on main protagonist and growth accumulated until now.

    Hopefully several throwbacks to past regions and characters in BW2 saga being followed with return of old pokemon like Charizard solidifying connection between Ash and past sagas is perhaps sign how writers still haven't gave up on his character announcing better, brighter days for his story and anime as whole.

  14. #364
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    BW Ash shows why you should never have someone like DP Ash unless you are going to scrap him. You can only advance so far before you are forced to reset.
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    Watching the recent dub episodes, Satoshi isn't weak at all, he can sometimes be a little clueless but still.
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  16. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    Watching the recent dub episodes, Satoshi isn't weak at all, he can sometimes be a little clueless but still.
    Sure, because Elesa's Gym challenge is the true definition of being a "little" clueless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    Sure, because Elesa's Gym challenge is the true definition of being a "little" clueless.
    He isn't perfect, everyone will slip up and make mistakes.

  18. #368
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    I don't think Ash was particularly weak in the beginning of the saga. I mean he was working with new Pokémon and the one Pokémon he kept with him (Pikachu) usually regresses at the beginning of every saga because the writers don't want to keep him as this massive powerhouse when Ash starts a region. I mean he did lose a few battles here and there (Lenora and Trip) for example but those are usually understandable because 1)Ash usually always loses to a Gym Leader in every region and 2)Trip's wins happened when Pikachu couldn't use electric attacks and the second battle had Trip using Super Luck 2 times so Oshawott and Tepig didn't lose because they were weak. They lost because of Tranquil's ability. If Super Luck never happened, the battle would have been much closer, I think. All his Pokémon for the most part were shown training, learning new moves and getting stronger. He even made it to the Top 2 of the Club Battle tournament. The problem was that unlike other regions, he didn't get stronger over the course of the region. This was shown when Dino, a trainer Ash actually beat, made it to the Top 2 while Ash lost 2 rounds earlier. Clearly, Dino did a lot of training to get second place and Ash didn't seem to work as hard. He seemed to rely a lot on Pikachu, Pignite and Krookodile to get him victories and all his other Pokémon were in over their head in the Unova League with the possible exception of Scraggy who did get a win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    Sure, because Elesa's Gym challenge is the true definition of being a "little" clueless.
    He wasn't being clueless, the writers were.

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    Ash/Satoshi isn't too weak in my opinion. The writers are just confused how do continue to progress a Cash Cow like pokemon without making Ash so strong that he shouldn't be doing the same dumb stuff. Everyone knows if he went to a new region with his top team (Charizard,Pikachu,Sceptile,Squirtle,heracross, and Starraptor) he would be in the champions league by now. You can only progress him so far which is why they tried to lie to us saying Ash is still 10..... You cant really try and change the main character either they tried that in DP and although DP was very well done. You cant take the main character from Ash.


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    He makes mistakes and comes up with strategies all the time. People like to claim DP Ash to be "the triad of an amazing trainer" but he used Sonic Boom on a Gengar, Blaze pretty much became a Deus Ex Machina at times it wasn't needed,(Use in the Sinnoh League, okay, however. That was build up and the right moment for it.) Gliscor had to be sent off to be trained by someone else just to become League ready, Grotle and Torterra were just awful, Ash even made idiotic decisions like keeping Buizel and Grotle in against opponents he knew better they couldn't beat.(He did something similar like this with Unfezant against Roxie's Koffing.) Ash is about as competent a trainer as the plot makes him. He's formed strategy and won battles with clever tactics, my only real problem is the gym-volutions.
    Last edited by Doryuzu; 16th April 2013 at 1:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    Sure, because Elesa's Gym challenge is the true definition of being a "little" clueless.
    Now that was a HUGE WTF moment in Pokemon. Bigger that Thunder Armor or Aim for The Horn combined.

  23. #373
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    I don't think he's too weak, just inconsistent.
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  24. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Now that was a HUGE WTF moment in Pokemon. Bigger that Thunder Armor or Aim for The Horn combined.
    Ash cheated, he used four Pokemon... the Wall clearly koed all of Elesa's Pokemon
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    Its the writers fault, for some reason they wanted him to be a newbie first half of the series. I think they are doing better with him now though.
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