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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    A Hariyama which it KOd with no problem, and Donphan. Then it gets a Peck in and gets immediately trashed by Metagross. He didn't win because of how he used his team. Torkoal could have been saved to cause less of a pain to Pikachu who then could have beaten Meowth no problem
    It was a cheap plot device that gave Ash a win he had no business winning.

    And yes his pokemon arent strong so he had to rely on plot armor to win major battles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    It was a cheap plot device that gave Ash a win he had no business winning.

    And yes his pokemon arent strong so he had to rely on plot armor to win major battles.
    Critical hits aren't plot device. Even in real life if you hit someone in the same spot over and over, it will hurt more. That was strategy




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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    Critical hits aren't plot device. Even in real life if you hit someone in the same spot over and over, it will hurt more. That was strategy
    It was not a critical hit. It was a desperate ploy the writers undergone when they gave tyson a metagross then went holy **** how are we supposed to have ash beat that without reserves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    It was not a critical hit. It was a desperate ploy the writers undergone when they gave tyson a metagross then went holy **** how are we supposed to have ash beat that without reserves?
    A critical hit is hitting the weakspot. That's why it hurt Metagross more




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  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    He could have beaten him, just not with the team he picked.
    That was pretty much that I meant. If Satoshi had a different team or at least evolved (can't believe I am going there) some of his pokemon (like oshawott for example) then he would be able to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    And Lucario was absolute bull. Riolu should not be KOing fully evolved Normal/Flying types and yet getting beaten terribly by Snivy
    that was one thing that turned me off about the anime, unfortunately.

    but then again, you don't need a serious personality to be a strong trainer.
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  6. #31

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    I like the see that derp losing. However I do not like to see him without any character development at all.
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  7. #32

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    Well, what would be cool is if they'd make Ash strong, but make the other trainers even stronger. Like, Ash could be able to beat the kids of his age (Kotetsu, Trip, etc), but he would enter tournaments with much more older and experienced trainers. Also, the gym leaders could use better strategies, like more tag battles and all that stuff. Instead of losing against people like Trip, he could have a rival who is like a 20 years old, who's using all kind of badass strategies like counter shield and all. It would force Ash to use even more tactics than what he do with his normal battles. That would be great.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    A critical hit is hitting the weakspot. That's why it hurt Metagross more
    That might be what a critical hit would be IRL but not for Pokemon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimbird View Post
    Well, what would be cool is if they'd make Ash strong, but make the other trainers even stronger. Like, Ash could be able to beat the kids of his age (Kotetsu, Trip, etc), but he would enter tournaments with much more older and experienced trainers. Also, the gym leaders could use better strategies, like more tag battles and all that stuff. Instead of losing against people like Trip, he could have a rival who is like a 20 years old, who's using all kind of badass strategies like counter shield and all. It would force Ash to use even more tactics than what he do with his normal battles. That would be great.
    Too much work I guess

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by diakyu View Post
    And a show without an underdog protagonist is lame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    I think Toriko, Goku, Kenshiro and others would like to have a word with you. And even then, they struggle to earn their victories. I hate this notion that a badass, smart main character from the get-go is inherently bad. Like most things, it depends on the writing.

    And while a underdog character isn't bad, it's their development and growth that makes them truly good where we see them go from "fair" to "great." Sadly with Ash, it's not handled very well as others have point out. And don't get me started on BW...
    Last edited by matt0044; 2nd March 2013 at 8:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post

    And while a underdog character isn't bad, it's their development and growth that makes them truly good where we see them go from "fair" to "great." Sadly with Ash, it's not handled very well as others have point out. And don't get me started on BW...
    That's why the writers should just get rid of him. If the writers really aren't interested in advancing or developing him anymore, just write him off.

  11. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    That's why the writers should just get rid of him. If the writers really aren't interested in advancing or developing him anymore, just write him off.
    Writing Ash off does no justice either.

    They'll only do the exact same with a new protagonist. Why scrap a character who's been a symbol of the anime with a tonne of development for 16+ years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post

    They'll only do the exact same with a new protagonist. Why scrap a character who's been a symbol of the anime with a tonne of development for 16+ years?
    Pikachu is far more of an icon than Ash is. You could easily give another trainer a Pikachu, it's not like Pikachu has much personality anymore anyway.

    If you're not interested in developing a character anymore, and are just going to have them fluctuate wildly in competence because of how long they've been around...it's better to write them off, and have cameo's or appearance every now and then. At least with a new protagonist, we'd know we're actually following a NEW trainer.
    Last edited by Graham Aker; 2nd March 2013 at 8:30 PM.

  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    Pikachu is far more of an icon than Ash is.
    Pikachu is an icon of the game franchise aswell remember.

    As far as the anime is concerned, Ash is just as important as Pikachu.

    If you're not interested in developing a character anymore, and are just going to have them fluctuate widly in competence because of how long they've been around...it's better to write them off, and have cameo's or appearance every now and then. At least with a new protagonist, we'd know we're actually following a NEW trainer.
    I don't believe in this logic, since the same fate is likely to happen once again with the same writers.

  14. #39
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    A nice balance would be neat. BW was just an insane amount of losing for him. While in AG he seemed to have a very good idea of how to battle and how to do this and that, and then got pegged down but got back up since he learned something.

    I don't think people want Ash to win everything, but I mean some consistency would be nice. You know he got asked to be a Frontier Brain, then suddenly he goes to Isshu and all strategy was wiped clean. Some points it just gets ridiculousness how the writers treat him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    At least he would have 1 fully evolved starter.
    the starters don't make or break everything you know.--;

    As for Riolu, given the fact it had Pikachu esque status it was no wonder why it could take on Unfezant.

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    Of course. But it doesn't help that the writers reset him at the start of BW or that Pikachu gets reset at the start of every saga. I can sort of understand the logic around resetting Pikachu's power level, but I don't understand why the writers don't just have Pikachu sit out instead of making him weak. I mean they're obviously worried about Pikachu beating every Pokemon he battles, so maybe the solution would be to not have Pikachu battle at all. He does well just sitting on Ash's shoulder anyway. But yeah, Ash is too weak, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

  17. #42

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    That's quite a good idea, but not stop fighting fully.

    I'd say if Pikachu layed low battling trainers for the first 30 episodes and simply battles wild Pokemon to win. Then when Pikachu resumes fighting he wouldn't seem as weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takaru View Post
    I don't think people want Ash to win everything, but I mean some consistency would be nice. You know he got asked to be a Frontier Brain, then suddenly he goes to Isshu and all strategy was wiped clean. Some points it just gets ridiculousness how the writers treat him.
    Yeah, seriously you'd think he'd keep a lot of good advice in mind when advancing, even to newer regions. I think it'd make sense for him to forget some things(he has been through a lot) but then have flashbacks once he realizes what he's started to lack again. I mean Drake taught him how bad overconfidence can be and to stay a little more focused in the battle while Bertha taught him to be more observant. It's like his memory is for the most part erased every time he gets somewhere new. Not knowing the Pokemon is a good excuse to lack some things, but previous knowledge should play a bigger role as he gets to learn about them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    That's quite a good idea, but not stop fighting fully.

    I'd say if Pikachu layed low battling trainers for the first 30 episodes and simply battles wild Pokemon to win. Then when Pikachu resumes fighting he wouldn't seem as weak.
    I think that'd make more sense than to have Pikachu beat a freakin' Regice relatively easily (and after it uses rest at that) only to go on and lose the simplest of battles, like the Panpour one that was brought up. If he honestly needs the help, it could work at earlier points but he could be saved for the bigger battles, so as to give his new Pokemon more time to develop as well.

  19. #44

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    I don't mind a reason for Pikachu being weak, but when he loses because of the obvious reset it's annoying.

    Pikachu lost to Snivy because Zekrom weakened him and took away his Electric ability, which caught both Pikachu and Ash off guard at the time. However, vs Cress and Panpour there was no excuse as Pikachu was much faster and had the type advantage. Compared to other battles Pikachu's been up against that should have been easy.

  20. #45
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    Show with the main character as an underdog, you'd think writers of such shows would be giving lessons to the target audience(Kids), about never giving up, always believing in yourself, stick to it and you'll get stronger, all that.

    For Ash, he goes through this each series, starts out as the underdog then gets stronger as the series progresses. And despite what people say about Best Wishes, Ash still has gotten stronger(Whether you like how it was handled or not is irrelevant, he's not the same as he was in the first episode of Best Wishes, his team has changed enough to signify strength).
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    He is 10 not to mention the people in rthe leagues are older. However if you view the series sinnoh is where he trained the hardest and could of won the league if Tobias did not enter. He trained hard to in Hoenn and did pretty well. However he doesn't seem to train as much in Unova since they seemed to make unova very much like Kanto which I think was a mistake and they should of just connected it to DP and brought his skills over like they did in other series

    However it could be argued he starts weak due to being realistic to the players. Even if your skilled and have all level 100s in BW 2 your going to have to start fresh in the next games

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    I don't mind a reason for Pikachu being weak, but when he loses because of the obvious reset it's annoying.

    Pikachu lost to Snivy because Zekrom weakened him and took away his Electric ability, which caught both Pikachu and Ash off guard at the time. However, vs Cress and Panpour there was no excuse as Pikachu was much faster and had the type advantage. Compared to other battles Pikachu's been up against that should have been easy.
    For that second part, it's even worse when we've seen things like Pikachu taking a RIDICULOUS amount of hits from Flint's Infernape, which was mad strong, before finally going down. We're in agreement there. I like it when Pikachu loses by being caught offguard or a real explanation, like how Swanna was able to block it's electric attacks by an Aqua Ring shield, but to just have it losing for the sake of losing...not so much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kokatsu View Post
    However it could be argued he starts weak due to being realistic to the players. Even if your skilled and have all level 100s in BW 2 your going to have to start fresh in the next games
    Our knowledge of battling remains pretty much the same though, even though we are starting fresh. It's understandable having him learn and get tougher progressing through a new region because, well it's new and you need to learn about the new Pokemon and such. However, they tend to make Ash a complete airhead at times, not even remembering basic knowledge that isn't specific to any one region. It doesn't help that Pikachu's arguably his most trained Pokemon(being with him everywhere) and having it lose the simplest of battles that should have been a no contest; It'd be better to just tone down his use until later or them making a real reason as to why he lost, as has been mentioned a few times.
    Last edited by Chriiis; 2nd March 2013 at 10:20 PM.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    That's quite a good idea, but not stop fighting fully.

    I'd say if Pikachu layed low battling trainers for the first 30 episodes and simply battles wild Pokemon to win. Then when Pikachu resumes fighting he wouldn't seem as weak.
    I just don't see any reason why Pikachu should still be battling when his strong suit has always been popularity and marketability. :x

    And by the way, I get that Ash doesn't stay weak throughout an entire saga. He does gain strength and intellect, but what's the point if he ends up losing it once a new saga starts? I'm not just talking about the BW thing where Ash started acting like a rookie again. More specifically, I'm talking about how he usually starts over with just Pikachu after dumping his old Pokemon, and then captures new Pokemon. Like, he's willingly throwing away his strength for the sake of starting over fresh, which I find silly. The writers should take the Johto approach and have Ash keep his old Pokemon on his team and then gradually replace them as Ash travels through a new region and obtains new Pokemon. I just hate the sudden "let's have Ash leave all his Pokemon except Pikachu at Oak's place without a second thought" thing.
    Last edited by Lorde; 2nd March 2013 at 10:23 PM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post

    I don't believe in this logic, since the same fate is likely to happen once again with the same writers.
    Quite frankly, I see it better than seeing the same guy on a insufferably never-ending journey. At least with main character swapping, the resets would make more sense if anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chriiis View Post
    I think that'd make more sense than to have Pikachu beat a freakin' Regice relatively easily (and after it uses rest at that) only to go on and lose the simplest of battles, like the Panpour one that was brought up. If he honestly needs the help, it could work at earlier points but he could be saved for the bigger battles, so as to give his new Pokemon more time to develop as well.
    Though with TR, Pikachu could be used since those guys don't play fair.
    Last edited by matt0044; 2nd March 2013 at 10:30 PM.

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    Because it's fun to watch a main character "evolve" further into becoming a better character.

    Ash is strong as hell, his experience in Best Wishes might not show it, but we've seen it already, this is one hax trainer. Whenever this power is actually shown is whenever we're closing in to the final battle against an evil team, that's when Ash starts going Tailed Beast Mode on us and actually showing that he deserves what he has now.

    He may seem weak throughout most of any saga, but that's just because the anime is showing off how a regular trainer would go about in the main story of one of the main games. We all start out as weak trainers when we play a Pokemon main game (including XD, Colo, and BR). We all struggle in our first gym battle, we all struggle in the Elite Four, we all struggle when dealing with the evil team, and we all struggle against our rivals, and that's exactly what the anime is trying to show.

    If a trainer who is able to engulf a battlefield that is flooded with poison spikes in flames, or make his/her Pikachu use a Spirit Bomb Electro Ball, or command a Zekrom/Reshiram into saving the world is considered a weak trainer, than I just don't know what our world has come to.
    Last edited by nuzamaki90; 3rd March 2013 at 12:06 AM.

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