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Thread: Is our Protagonist too weak?

  1. #51

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    Also, if you remember, at the begining of Best Wishes, Ash says he's going on vacation. So, I see this season a little bit like a summer vacation for him, relaxing and not taking it as seriously as his other journeys. This could explain why he's not at his best like the other times. But I love our little Ash anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimbird View Post
    Also, if you remember, at the begining of Best Wishes, Ash says he's going on vacation. So, I see this season a little bit like a summer vacation for him, relaxing and not taking it as seriously as his other journeys. This could explain why he's not at his best like the other times. But I love our little Ash anyway.
    Your theory gets a bit wrecked. At the beginning Ash treated it as a vacation. But by episode 2 he had decided to go on a full-fledged journey.
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  3. #53

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    Ash has some potential be strong. It's just that his overall strategies have been...downright awful. His typing disadvantage has to go, for example.

    This is the kid who thought he could solo Elesa with just Palpitoad. HE HAS NEVER FINISHED AN IMPORTANT BATTLE WITH LEFTOVER POKEMON.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    Ash has some potential be strong. It's just that his overall strategies have been...downright awful. His typing disadvantage has to go, for example.

    This is the kid who thought he could solo Elesa with just Palpitoad. HE HAS NEVER FINISHED AN IMPORTANT BATTLE WITH LEFTOVER POKEMON.
    I agree. He's a good trainer, and he's shown throughout the show that he's pretty good at teaching his Pokemon new attacks, but when it comes down to it his tactics aren't very good. They're awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuraChannelerChris View Post
    This is the kid who thought he could solo Elesa with just Palpitoad. HE HAS NEVER FINISHED AN IMPORTANT BATTLE WITH LEFTOVER POKEMON.
    Yes he has. He swept Wake, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shneak View Post
    Yes he has. He swept Wake, for example.
    It happened once in a 190 ep series

  7. #57

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    In BW series yes, I hope they fix that next series though. I was fine with him in AG and D/P series, he was almost pro in those.
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    Ash has been a good trainer but the writers have been slowing him down a lot, he should be gary stu level or maybe a little less, they should let him evolve pokemon, train older pokemon and actually stradigies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    That's quite a good idea, but not stop fighting fully.

    I'd say if Pikachu layed low battling trainers for the first 30 episodes and simply battles wild Pokemon to win. Then when Pikachu resumes fighting he wouldn't seem as weak.
    That or only part take in gym battles when needed... Pikachu will always hog the screen we know that, but it would be nice for Ash to only rely on him when he knows his other team members might not be able to get the job done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    That or only part take in gym battles when needed... Pikachu will always hog the screen we know that, but it would be nice for Ash to only rely on him when he knows his other team members might not be able to get the job done.
    Or he could use a reserve before the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Or he could use a reserve before the league.

    Gym leader 1: I am the most powerful rock type in the area! Many challengers have faced me and lost! Now just try and beat me!
    Ash: Mmkay, Go Torterra! Obliterate!
    Too bad that they feel overkill for the main character is a sin. But Pikachu losing is apparently a-okay
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    Ash starts from 0 or close 0 in any sagas. AG done well in bringing Ash to a strong trainer with a good team by the league. By the Sinnoh League, it was shown that his Sinnoh team was competent in battling. No offense to BW fans, but I'm not getting the same vibes as the two previous seasons. IMO, Ash had the weakest team in Pokemon history.

    I can tolerate him from starting as a newbie (DP first amount of episodes), but when I don't see growth and development by th league of the team. I can't stand that.

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    Personally.. I'm just sick and tired of ash getting "reset" at the beginning of the series and "forgetting" pokemon type match ups and getting over confident... It's just tiresome to watch him learn the same things over and over... And I get its because of new viewers and younger viewers, but I definitely believe they need to start showing that ash actually HAS been on all these other journeys before... I mean.. What REALLY pissed me off lol was that Ash took on the battle pyramid and Pikachu took on a top class trainer with a legendary pokemon (regice) and won... Like 2 episodes later he struggles to beat a Bidoof or whatever it was at the start of D/P... And then in the next series where Pikachu should ONLY be stronger, it looses to a snivy in its first ever battle, I know it couldn't use ele tric attacks... But it's quick attack would have beaten it in one hit lol

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    I agree that Ash did pretty much regress a bit at the start of DP. But what helped me not notice it as much compared to BW, is that Sinnoh in general just seemed to be a tough region. Everyone seemed at a higher level compared to the past. So I felt it was nice that Ash was challenged by worthy opponents.

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    Best Wishes has destroyed a lot of the sense of continuity they had spent so many years building up for Ash's journey.

    Kanto - Noobish trainer, get some extremely good luck and manages to do OK in the league
    Orange League - Starts to come into form, mainly by beating Drake
    Johto - Wins his badges legitimately and mostly on the first try, defeats Gary to prove he's a top trainer
    Hoenn - Wants to start over and learn to succeed with other Pokemon, proves his skill as a trainer by using these Pokemon do match his previous placement in the league
    Battle Frontier - Uses all his Pokemon and beats his toughest opponent yet in Brandon
    Sinnoh - Starts out a little rough, realizes there are other trainers out there who are just as skilled as he is, trains hard to reach his highest league placement yet

    Best Wishes really has contributed nothing to the overall story of Ash and his journey to become a Pokemon Master. He has some problems adapting to the new region in the first few episodes, but once he's in form around the third gym, he battles at the same level until the league. It's not like Hoenn where he has to work around his Pokemon's odd and diverse personalities, or Sinnoh where he has to change strategies to deal with different opponents. His Pokemon are just battling until they evolve and learn new moves. I get that that's the games, but as a TV Show there's a storytelling obligation that is being somewhat ignored.

    What could've saved Best Wishes was having Ash really take his lesser result at the league to heart and becoming a little more active with his training before the next region, where it eventually pays off. I'm not expecting him to mope around, but to recognize his mistakes and actively try to work on them. Best Wishes isn't over yet and Ash did mention at the end of the league that he needed to get stronger, so who knows, maybe the arc after N will deal with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    i actually wouldn't mind a bad *** ash who can't be beat. so long as he shows the competence and intelligence that he would need to be unbeatable. and of course i don't mean winning 100% of battles. but i would like it if it took another really good trainer to make him falter. like one that can outsmart him. not somebody like trip or paul. someone like cynthia ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by RVD_fan View Post
    What could've saved Best Wishes was having Ash really take his lesser result at the league to heart and becoming a little more active with his training before the next region, where it eventually pays off. I'm not expecting him to mope around, but to recognize his mistakes and actively try to work on them. Best Wishes isn't over yet and Ash did mention at the end of the league that he needed to get stronger, so who knows, maybe the arc after N will deal with that.
    i would have wanted him to react similarly to his reaction after he lost to paul in their first real full battle. like how he was really brought down by it in "uncrushing defeat" but he eventually came around and learned from where he went wrong and went on to defeat him in the league but it would be nice to see him become a better trainer in general. not just against a specific opponent, which is something i loved about DP. ash kept growing throughout the series, it wasn't just skipping stones like "oh i beat another gym, my skill level has increased" type of stuff. which isn't even what we see in BW. he's constantly faltering throughout the saga. and i actually enjoy the BW saga. i just don't even mentally give it the attention that i gave the rest of the entire series. it doesn't have that same feel. it makes me feel like i'm watching a renewed pokemon saga.
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    I just think the consistency is a main flaw. While sure the Anime runs at a very slow pace, going from 4 years~ per region I don't think making Ash retain some information is going to throw off any viewers or make them feel less connected.

    The beginning of OS to the end of AG had nearly a decade gap starting from 1997 to ending in 2006. Through that period Ash kept a level of consistent training and skill. You could argue Ash's peak in being a trainer was being offered that Frontier Brain spot. So suddenly after that Ash suddenly got re-written to be in-experienced? Maybe the writers don't expect people to be watching the Anime for 10 years. But what about the people barley starting with the Third Gen and watching Ash be offered this BIG position. Suddenly the next time they follow him on his journey he's inexperienced? Its that lack of consistency.

    And yes, overall the Anime is their to promote the games, but why can't they just keep Ash's consistent training skills and show a new trainer like May or Dawn being the newbies. It worked great for AG and DP. So why did they take what was so good about those and do a 180 with BW's? It just seems like lazy work to me.

    If you ask me they can still write Ash's character a person who keeps growing and growing but to have a pay off for his growth, like some of you said the Anime is supposed to help children with who are starting out. May and Dawn were newbies and Ash helped them and the newer audiance can learn from them. Ash will always catch new Pokemon, and he'll train them, but why does he have to forget type advantages all the time? He can still lose like every good trainer, but it doesn't mean he has to be a complete novice to make him relate able to children.

    I may have over done it, but

    Tl;dr: Its just lazy writing to keep Ash be an inconsistent trainer when he's shown consistency with May in AG by helping her, just to end up being a newbie like her in BW. Even it caters to a new audience now, its just lazy to not want Ash to develop as a character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takaru View Post
    I just think the consistency is a main flaw. While sure the Anime runs at a very slow pace, going from 4 years~ per region I don't think making Ash retain some information is going to throw off any viewers or make them feel less connected.

    The beginning of OS to the end of AG had nearly a decade gap starting from 1997 to ending in 2006. Through that period Ash kept a level of consistent training and skill. You could argue Ash's peak in being a trainer was being offered that Frontier Brain spot. So suddenly after that Ash suddenly got re-written to be in-experienced? Maybe the writers don't expect people to be watching the Anime for 10 years. But what about the people barley starting with the Third Gen and watching Ash be offered this BIG position. Suddenly the next time they follow him on his journey he's inexperienced? Its that lack of consistency.

    And yes, overall the Anime is their to promote the games, but why can't they just keep Ash's consistent training skills and show a new trainer like May or Dawn being the newbies. It worked great for AG and DP. So why did they take what was so good about those and do a 180 with BW's? It just seems like lazy work to me.

    If you ask me they can still write Ash's character a person who keeps growing and growing but to have a pay off for his growth, like some of you said the Anime is supposed to help children with who are starting out. May and Dawn were newbies and Ash helped them and the newer audiance can learn from them. Ash will always catch new Pokemon, and he'll train them, but why does he have to forget type advantages all the time? He can still lose like every good trainer, but it doesn't mean he has to be a complete novice to make him relate able to children.

    I may have over done it, but

    Tl;dr: Its just lazy writing to keep Ash be an inconsistent trainer when he's shown consistency with May in AG by helping her, just to end up being a newbie like her in BW. Even it caters to a new audience now, its just lazy to not want Ash to develop as a character.
    Exactly, though with May not knowing that Torchic evolves amongst others and Dawn not remembering to unshrink/unlock a Poke Ball when in their world, it should be common sense, the newbie thing makes me question to what degree of competence you need to prove that you're ready for the world itself. I'd hate to see the worst case scenario for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    No, he's just as he should be. No one wants a protagonist who's badass and completely unbeatable.
    The problem with this logic, is that Ash has never won enough for this to be a problem.

    And it's the same reason why Ash will never be a Pokemon master.

    Because he is so weak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dman_dustin View Post
    The problem with this logic, is that Ash has never won enough for this to be a problem.

    And it's the same reason why Ash will never be a Pokemon master.

    Because he is so weak.
    Exactly! I don't get why one extreme is okay but not the other? I just want better consistency, not perfect, but better. That's not too much to ask.




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    Quote Originally Posted by dman_dustin View Post
    The problem with this logic, is that Ash has never won enough for this to be a problem.

    And it's the same reason why Ash will never be a Pokemon master.

    Because he is so weak.
    Spilling the truth tea as always. I agree.

    I really dislike the lack of consistency. Ash has traveled far and wide and should be really strong at this point, but the writers purposely ignore that because they're afraid that Ash would be too powerful if he used all the knowledge and experience he's accumulated throughout his journey. If they're really afraid that Ash would beat all the new trainers when he gets to a new region, why not introduce stronger trainers to begin with? Like, instead of all the rookie ones that he usually meets, he should meet trainers who have just as much experience as he does; this is assuming that the writers keep him at a high level instead of having him regress all the time of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Spilling the truth tea as always. I agree.

    I really dislike the lack of consistency. Ash has traveled far and wide and should be really strong at this point, but the writers purposely ignore that because they're afraid that Ash would be too powerful if he used all the knowledge and experience he's accumulated throughout his journey. If they're really afraid that Ash would beat all the new trainers when he gets to a new region, why not introduce stronger trainers to begin with? Like, instead of all the rookie ones that he usually meets, he should meet trainers who have just as much experience as he does; this is assuming that the writers keep him at a high level instead of having him regress all the time of course.
    They did that in DP. Paul, the gym leaders seemed to be as tough as ever without making Ash look weak, the Elite Four got a huge boost in power and especially Cynthia.




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  23. #73

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    If Pokemon was real, realistically you probably wouldn't win a league, multiple times. The funny thing is that Ash's Journey should actually be believable because of this but the fact that he's so weak completely defeats it and makes it seem un-realistic the exact opposite of what should be happening. It's alright if he doesn't achieve his goals all the time, but the fact he just loses every battle/pokemon he comes across ruins his reputation and feats he's gained.

  24. #74

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    To be fair, Ash's character development stopped dead after Johto. After that, it seemed like they tried to make each arc/region "independent" of the others, hence the "resets". It's like he'd forget everything he learned in the previous regions. I mean, he gets outsmarted by the first Gym leader in pretty much every region... at some point you'd think he'd realize this, and stop throwing away his strategies that he's learned from previous regions.

    Plus, the show has become completely predictable. I mean, look at all of the leagues. Ash will win the initial round or two, and then beat his rival that he's had since the beginning of the arc. Then, he'll lose in the very next round, to someone he only met a few episodes prior. Happened with Johto (Beats Gary -> Loses to Harrison), Hoenn (Beats Morrison -> Loses to Tyson), Sinnoh (Beats Paul -> Loses to Tobias), and now Unova (Beats Trip and Stephan -> Loses to Cameron). THIS is the reason why I'd like to see a new protagonist; the structure of each arc with Ash as the focus has become so woefully predictable.

    It's just a consequence of bad writing, really. They try so hard to tone him down at the beginning of each region so he doesn't seem "overpowered" by beating everything the first time. A new protagonist with a fresh start could alleviate these problems greatly.
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    ^And even if the new protagonist goes through this repetitive cycle, it'd be more reasonable than the same exact guy.

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