View Poll Results: Which region was better?

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  • Kanto

    17 36.96%
  • Johto

    29 63.04%
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Thread: Kanto v. Johto and impact on later gens

  1. #1
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    Default Kanto v. Johto and impact on later gens

    This is a thread for discussion of the Kanto and Johto regions - dex, region, gameplay, and pokemon-wise and their impact on the third fourth and fifth gens.

    Personally, I feel like Johto was simply an expansion of Kanto. The difference in Pokemon amount, and the map being connected. I feel like they just wanted to expand on it.


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    Johto has almost all of the same Pokemon as Kanto PLUS MORE, and I think the real impact to the new games came when they redid some of the aspects in the THIRD generations, I think that the first and second generation just set the tone. The first and second gen were supposed to be the only ones until there was a popular demand for it and Pokemon became so popular.
    Within my lifetime, I've done a lot of walking. I started my journey walking on a little path called Route 1. Little did I know that walking down that route would lead me onwards to a road that went by the name of Victory. Just west of Victory Road, I walked up an entire mountain where atop stood a silent trainer who was one of the mightiest I had ever faced. I've walked, through sandstorms, across the hard desert of Hoenn. I've walked through pelting hail, across the snow covered terrains of Sinnoh. And now as I look back on all my travels I find myself walking across the Skyarrow Bridge of Unova. It took a lot of walking through tall grass patches to get where I am today...But it was worth the walk.

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    I agree with the first post. It was different back then. We're used to these huge regions with so many new Pokémon everywhere. It's pretty much like from BW1 to BW2 except larger. Even in HG/SS Johto Pokémon get overshadowed by the new Sinnoh evolutions in the native Pokédex




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    It seems like the second gen was to be last, and simply an "expansion" per se to Kanto. The Pokemon are the same style, and we get Evos and Prevos.


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    Quote Originally Posted by master3019 View Post
    It seems like the second gen was to be last, and simply an "expansion" per se to Kanto. The Pokemon are the same style, and we get Evos and Prevos.
    One of the makers of Pokemon said that the original 2 were supposed to be the last, they wanted to do what they had done with their other series, and just end it, but because it was so popular, and had such a heavy demand they decided to revamp Pokemon in Ruby and Sapphire.
    Within my lifetime, I've done a lot of walking. I started my journey walking on a little path called Route 1. Little did I know that walking down that route would lead me onwards to a road that went by the name of Victory. Just west of Victory Road, I walked up an entire mountain where atop stood a silent trainer who was one of the mightiest I had ever faced. I've walked, through sandstorms, across the hard desert of Hoenn. I've walked through pelting hail, across the snow covered terrains of Sinnoh. And now as I look back on all my travels I find myself walking across the Skyarrow Bridge of Unova. It took a lot of walking through tall grass patches to get where I am today...But it was worth the walk.

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    Kanto pretty much set the tone for the series, and Johto was pretty much just an expansion to Kanto.

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    While Kanto/Gen 1 was the foundation of the series, it was riddled with flaws. Many gameplay mechanics by today's standards are just... awful, such as crit rate being dependent on your speed stat, the special stat accounting for both special attack and special defense (biasing the stat in favor of specially oriented Pokemon), and the abysmal lack of moves, especially those that dealt super-effective damage to Psychic types... The list goes on and on.

    Johto/Gen 2 may have been more of an expansion, as many people have already said, but it was the first attempt to truly bring a sense of balance to the series. The introduction of dark and steel types, the special split, entry hazards (albeit just spikes), weather conditions, genders, breeding, and hold items... It took something that was very basic, and very unbalanced, and greatly improved upon it. Now most of the major flaws are non-existent although I'd call the IV system truly flawed, but that's neither here nor there. For this reason, I'd call Johto/Gen 2 more influential, simply because it started the games down the path of being balanced.

    Though imo, that balance did not become complete until Gen 4, with the Special/Physical distinction on attacks, but that's another story altogether.
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    Kanto's Dex was decent enough, though from a modern perspective, it's very heavily imbalanced; critics will be quick to point out how there was only one line of Dragons, one line of Ghosts, and how a quarter of the Dex was Poison. It's still one of the better Regional Dexes in the series, though, and it fit the region well. Johto was essentially Kanto 2.0, which is never a good philosophy for a game such as this, even if it was a sequel.

    In terms of how they impacted modern Pokemon games, it's tough to say. Ruby and Sapphire were major departures from GSC in more ways than way, and the different styles of gameplay show. One important thing to note, in terms of Pokemon design, is that there was something of a large shift in designers between Gen II and Gen III. Part of the reason why Pokemon from modern games look different from those in the classic games is because these new designers brought their own, newer ideas to the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruaruler View Post
    One of the makers of Pokemon said that the original 2 were supposed to be the last, they wanted to do what they had done with their other series, and just end it, but because it was so popular, and had such a heavy demand they decided to revamp Pokemon in Ruby and Sapphire.
    source plz ty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Kanto's Dex was decent enough, though from a modern perspective, it's very heavily imbalanced; critics will be quick to point out how there was only one line of Dragons, one line of Ghosts, and how a quarter of the Dex was Poison. It's still one of the better Regional Dexes in the series, though, and it fit the region well. Johto was essentially Kanto 2.0, which is never a good philosophy for a game such as this, even if it was a sequel.

    In terms of how they impacted modern Pokemon games, it's tough to say. Ruby and Sapphire were major departures from GSC in more ways than way, and the different styles of gameplay show. One important thing to note, in terms of Pokemon design, is that there was something of a large shift in designers between Gen II and Gen III. Part of the reason why Pokemon from modern games look different from those in the classic games is because these new designers brought their own, newer ideas to the table.
    I'm gonna have to disagree with you that Kanto's was the better regional dex. I'd have to say that Black and White 2 offered the best regional dex considering that there were plenty of options as to how you want to set up your team. Because of that, battles were no longer a mash-A fest with trainers that had 6 Koffings, or 5 Magikarps...trainers actually had different Pokemon and that left you wondering what strategy to use against them. I don't know if you can say that Johto is Kanto 2.0...considering that it had different mythology and interesting places to visit. I mean tbh, when you revisit Kanto in GSC/HGSS, or even play in the original series...I've come to realize that Kanto's region design was just too plain and simple and quite barren as opposed to future regions.

    As for Pokemon designs, I think it's a lot more complicated than to simply say that designers had new ideas. In fact, Hoenn was based on tropical climates and differing weather status among certain areas. That definitely made more Pokemon designs interesting as it symbolizes the radically different species we see in tropical climate vs. normal climates. Also fits with the overall theme of the environment and Pokemon's interactions with it. If I have to commend anything from the RSE era, it's the inclusion of abilities, natures, and increased IV values, that really solidified the strategy aspect of Pokemon that RBY, and GSC were unable to provide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    source plz ty
    Here you go

    Ishihara: That’s right. After we released Red and Green, we began working on these titles, thinking that the ultimate in Pokémon games could only ever be Gold and Silver.

    Iwata: Not in your wildest dreams did you think that you’d be making more and more games after Gold and Silver. (laughs)

    Ishihara: The reason that I licensed so many products and developed things like the trading cards was basically to ensure that Gold and Silver were successful. I felt that this was my primary role. So at that time, I worked with the assumption that after we put out Gold and Silver, my work as far as Pokémon was concerned would be done.

    Iwata: I see.

    Ishihara: So for me, Gold and Silver represented the finish line.

    Iwata: They were the finish line?

    Ishihara: I didn’t intend to make any more Pokémon titles. I even thought that once we entered the twenty-first century, it would be time for me to do something else entirely. (laughs)
    http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Asks...ys-225900.html
    Last edited by BurningWhiteKyurem; 3rd March 2013 at 9:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Kanto's Dex was decent enough, though from a modern perspective, it's very heavily imbalanced; critics will be quick to point out how there was only one line of Dragons, one line of Ghosts, and how a quarter of the Dex was Poison. It's still one of the better Regional Dexes in the series, though, and it fit the region well.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here, RSE, BW1, BW2, and maybe even Platinum all had better regional dexes. Kanto was one of the worst, right along with DP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    I'm gonna have to disagree with you that Kanto's was the better regional dex.
    I said it was one of the better ones. I agree that BW2's was better.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    Because of that, battles were no longer a mash-A fest with trainers that had 6 Koffings, or 5 Magikarps
    implying that the Kanto games are the only ones that do that

    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    I don't know if you can say that Johto is Kanto 2.0...considering that it had different mythology and interesting places to visit.
    Which has nothing to do with the Regional Dex, which was the context I made that statement in.

    It's almost as if you're intentionally misreading my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    As for Pokemon designs, I think it's a lot more complicated than to simply say that designers had new ideas.
    It was a part of it, though. I can't possibly see how you interpreted that sentence as "this was the only factor related to differing Pokemon designs at all."

    There are ways of making me look like a moron while interpreting my posts they way they were meant to interpreted. There's no need to twist them and take phrases out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    Here you go
    One person says he wanted to stop working on Pokemon games after Gold and Silver. Obviously, from that, we can derive that everyone at GameFreak was opposed to the idea of making more Pokemon games.

  12. #12
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    Johto really felt like Kanto part two to me. It was mostly Kanto Pokemon with the Johto ones just kind of there. The majority of Gym Leaders didn't even have Gen II Pokemon on their teams, for Arceus' sake!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    I said it was one of the better ones. I agree that BW2's was better.
    And I'm saying that there's no way that it's one of the better regional dex. At least compared to games like Emerald/Platinum/BW/2. I didn't misinterpret you...I simply disagree with you. In fact I would say that it's the worst regional dex by virtue of its imbalanced variety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    implying that the Kanto games are the only ones that do that
    Nowhere am I implying that it ONLY happens in Kanto games. The reason I said 6 Koffings/Magikarps is because they're common in other games as well (Johto's Team Rocket storyline had too many Koffings/Rattata etc., DPPt had trainers using 6 Magikarps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    It was a part of it, though. I can't possibly see how you interpreted that sentence as "this was the only factor related to differing Pokemon designs at all."

    There are ways of making me look like a moron while interpreting my posts they way they were meant to interpreted. There's no need to twist them and take phrases out of context.
    Just saying that design isn't the emphasis...that it's more or less the fact that Hoenn was I would argue a southern region, so it's only natural that the species would be radically different from normal regions.

    Also, you're implying as if I actually care enough to make someone I don't know IRL look like a moron. Get off your high horse, seriously. (and yes I misinterpreted the region dex thing, my mistake).

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    One person says he wanted to stop working on Pokemon games after Gold and Silver. Obviously, from that, we can derive that everyone at GameFreak was opposed to the idea of making more Pokemon games.
    One person? You do realize that Ishihara is responsible for the direction that the Pokemon franchise takes? He could easily pull the plug on the series if he had felt the need to. The high demand for the games after GSC is what made him rethink this, and ultimately, that's when RSE were born.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    I'm gonna have to disagree with you that Kanto's was the better regional dex. I'd have to say that Black and White 2 offered the best regional dex considering that there were plenty of options as to how you want to set up your team. Because of that, battles were no longer a mash-A fest with trainers that had 6 Koffings, or 5 Magikarps...trainers actually had different Pokemon and that left you wondering what strategy to use against them. I don't know if you can say that Johto is Kanto 2.0...considering that it had different mythology and interesting places to visit. I mean tbh, when you revisit Kanto in GSC/HGSS, or even play in the original series...I've come to realize that Kanto's region design was just too plain and simple and quite barren as opposed to future regions.

    As for Pokemon designs, I think it's a lot more complicated than to simply say that designers had new ideas. In fact, Hoenn was based on tropical climates and differing weather status among certain areas. That definitely made more Pokemon designs interesting as it symbolizes the radically different species we see in tropical climate vs. normal climates. Also fits with the overall theme of the environment and Pokemon's interactions with it. If I have to commend anything from the RSE era, it's the inclusion of abilities, natures, and increased IV values, that really solidified the strategy aspect of Pokemon that RBY, and GSC were unable to provide.




    Here you go



    http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-Asks...ys-225900.html

    Thank you, I was just about to post my source, and saw that you had already done it.
    Within my lifetime, I've done a lot of walking. I started my journey walking on a little path called Route 1. Little did I know that walking down that route would lead me onwards to a road that went by the name of Victory. Just west of Victory Road, I walked up an entire mountain where atop stood a silent trainer who was one of the mightiest I had ever faced. I've walked, through sandstorms, across the hard desert of Hoenn. I've walked through pelting hail, across the snow covered terrains of Sinnoh. And now as I look back on all my travels I find myself walking across the Skyarrow Bridge of Unova. It took a lot of walking through tall grass patches to get where I am today...But it was worth the walk.

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    The poll seems to be asking a different question than the thread. I answered Johto, because I truly believe it to be the better region. I loved the distinct cultural feel and each location was so wonderfully unique (Slowpoke Well, Ruins of Alph, Whirl Islands, Sprout Tower, Ecruteak Towers to name a few).

    Impact on later games is trickier. Kanto was the first, after all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    That is not at all what he said, and this interview has been taken out of context so many times.

    There is not one single source that anyone has ever found that claimed that anyone in any official capacity that the Pokemon games were seriously supposed to end by Gen II. After the mass success of Gen I and the decent follow up with Gen II, no one at all thought that. People who tend to be successful at what they do tend to keep doing it.

    What Ishihara is saying, and he says it several times by using statements such as "I" and "to me", is that he was personally going to be finished with the day-to-day game stuff of Pokemon at that time.

    And that is true. His prophecy for himself came true. He stopped working on the games and moved on to the more advisory role of overseeing the mass media aspect of Pokemon.
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    I was actually thinking of how cool it would be to have them release something like a half-generation, like an expansion for a previous gen. For example, if two years after the release of X and Y, we got an expansion, with evos and new mons altogether, and they would be featured in the sequel game/games. Since we're discussing how gen 2 was a follow up for gen 1.


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    Quote Originally Posted by master3019 View Post
    I was actually thinking of how cool it would be to have them release something like a half-generation, like an expansion for a previous gen. For example, if two years after the release of X and Y, we got an expansion, with evos and new mons altogether, and they would be featured in the sequel game/games. Since we're discussing how gen 2 was a follow up for gen 1.
    This is what 5th gen should've been for 4th gen, it didn't really add as much to the gameplay as past gens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by master3019 View Post
    I was actually thinking of how cool it would be to have them release something like a half-generation, like an expansion for a previous gen. For example, if two years after the release of X and Y, we got an expansion, with evos and new mons altogether, and they would be featured in the sequel game/games. Since we're discussing how gen 2 was a follow up for gen 1.
    Black/white 2 sort of was that, except no "new" pokemon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuoke View Post
    Black/white 2 sort of was that, except no "new" pokemon.
    That's where I'm coming from. B/W 2 could have been that, maybe had it even introduced ten new mons. Think of how Johto is connected to Kanto. B/W 2 expanded on the region a little.


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    Quote Originally Posted by yuoke View Post
    Black/white 2 sort of was that, except no "new" pokemon.
    That's where I'm coming from. B/W 2 could have been that, maybe had it even introduced ten new mons. Think of how Johto is connected to Kanto. B/W 2 expanded on the region a little.


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    I cannot see Johto being an expansion of Kanto as many above have said.

    One thing is what GF planned to do with Johto, other is what it really happened. If they wanted to make Johto an expansion of Kanto, I wouldn't say that this indeed happened. Johto was a new region at all. Despite having less Pokemons than Kanto, it wasn't such a small region. It had its own 8 gyms, its own routes, caverns, sea routes. Johto shares the Elite Four with Kanto, but that's not enough to say that the Johto was an expansion of Kanto.

    In G/S/C we could travel back to Kanto because the catridge memory allowed that. GF didn't make us able to travel back to Johto and Kanto in Hoenn because that was going to require a lot of memory.

    And about wich region was better, I go with Kanto. But that's my personal preference. I can't see any bad or good if there is just one line of ghost or dragon in a dex because every region is different and has its own singularities. Unova Dex was the most complete dex launched by now, but as it wasn't included in the poll, then I voted on Kanto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Johto was essentially Kanto 2.0, which is never a good philosophy for a game such as this, even if it was a sequel.
    No, it wasn't even essencially. If they intended to make Johto as an expansion of Kanto, that didn't happened. In the end Johto was an entire region with the standards with a common region. The fact that the map was connected isn't enough to say Johto was an Kanto second side. Then, Johto can't be named as Kanto 2.0.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    It's still one of the better Regional Dexes in the series
    This is your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    I'd have to say that Black and White 2 offered the best regional dex considering that there were plenty of options as to how you want to set up your team.
    Unova Dex was the best for me by now as well. It was like a "semi-perfect dex".
    Last edited by Pogaymon; 4th March 2013 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical Jackal View Post
    I cannot see Johto being an expansion of Kanto as many above have said.

    One thing is what GF planned to do with Johto, other is what it really happened. If they wanted to make Johto an expansion of Kanto, I wouldn't say that this indeed happened. Johto was a new region at all. Despite having less Pokemons than Kanto, it wasn't such a small region. It had its own 8 gyms, its own routes, caverns, sea routes. Johto shares the Elite Four with Kanto, but that's not enough to say that the Johto was an expansion of Kanto.

    In G/S/C we could travel back to Kanto because the catridge memory allowed that. GF didn't make us able to travel back to Johto and Kanto in Hoenn because that was going to require a lot of memory.

    And about wich region was better, I go with Kanto. But that's my personal preference. I can't see any bad or good if there is just one line of ghost or dragon in a dex because every region is different and has its own singularities. Unova Dex was the most complete dex launched by now, but as it wasn't included in the poll, then I voted on Kanto.



    No, it wasn't even essencially. If they intended to make Johto as an expansion of Kanto, that didn't happened. In the end Johto was an entire region with the standards with a common region. The fact that the map was connected isn't enough to say Johto was an Kanto second side. Then, Johto can't be named as Kanto 2.0.



    This is your opinion.



    Unova Dex was the best for me by now as well. It was like a "semi-perfect dex".
    I too think Kanto was the better of the two.


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