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Thread: Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    She made herself a item being passed between her protectors and those that think the video was bull. If she wanted to destroy the myth of damsels she would allow comments, but evidently there is some truth behind girls needing protectors. Disagree? Please explain.
    Your conclusion is contradictory based on the verbs you're using to define the situation. The damsel in distress is passive. She is not in control of her own fate and the hero and villain act on her. But in your own words, "she made herself." The subject "she" is enacting the active verb "made." Since she is performing the verb, rather than having the verb performed on her, she does not logically fit the definition of a "damsel in distress."

    Further, can you explain why violent rape threats are an acceptable and conducive form of communication worth sharing?
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    For Christ's sake. Not only does the video have "Part 1" in the title, but she says explicitly near the end of the video that in the next part she's going to tackle newer games. This video was about the origins and history of the trope. The failure of listening and reading comprehension required to be all "why didn't she talk about any newer games??" is astounding. (Not that "But these games have strong women characters!" is a relevant objection at all - the thesis of the video isn't "Every single female character to ever appear in any video game is a damsel in distress.")

    (Two) She has made herself into a damsel in destress. She made herself a item being passed between her protectors and those that think the video was bull. If she wanted to destroy the myth of damsels she would allow comments, but evidently there is some truth behind girls needing protectors. Disagree? Please explain.
    How is she an item being passed between them? She's plowing on making her videos despite the haters, not throwing her hands up waiting for the white knights to "save her". There is nothing damsely about disabling YouTube comments - it's deciding she's not interested in being bombarded with festering misogyny/racism/rape threats and doing something about it, on her own initiative. The definition of the trope is that the woman is helpless and has to wait for a man to save her; she has not done anything that could even remotely be construed as that. Your analogy makes no sense.

    Besides, YouTube comment sections are pretty much the stupidest place on the internet even at the best of times. I sympathize greatly with anyone who doesn't feel like dealing with that for any reason. If people want to respond and criticize her video, they can, but she isn't obligated to have that discussion happen on her video's page.
    Last edited by Dragonfree; 18th March 2013 at 8:45 PM.

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    @ everyone saying she has the right to not allow comments... No not if she wants to be treated as equal to the "boys" Yeah she may get insulted, but this is the internet. If she is afraid of getting insulted she shouldn't be complaining about being equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    @ everyone saying she has the right to not allow comments... No not if she wants to be treated as equal to the "boys" Yeah she may get insulted, but this is the internet. If she is afraid of getting insulted she shouldn't be complaining about being equal.
    She's not disallowing people from commenting on her work. She even encourages people to post the video and discuss it. She just doesn't want the abuse toward her to be on the video page. That's not unreasonable considering all of the disgusting and dehumanizing threats she's gotten. Although I have to say that all of the horrible things men have said to her kind of just emphasize the point that sexism is still a major issue in our society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    but this is the internet.
    Why are violent rape threats an acceptable form of communication anywhere?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    There are a few feminists out there with such a extreme view in terms of wiping out men that it matches the Nazi's movement of seeing a lower class and or being utterly genocidal.

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    You know, I'm not a feminist but I can't help but say that it's surprising and wrong that people would make death threats just because of how the person feels. :-/
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    Quote Originally Posted by bel9 View Post
    Why are violent rape threats an acceptable form of communication anywhere?
    Because this is the internet and people need to grow up. Women are already equal to men, however more rights are demanded every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Because this is the internet and people need to grow up. Women are already equal to men, however more rights are demanded every day.
    No, women are not currently equal to men. Telling people to accept abuse and harassment is not telling them to grow up. You know what being a grown adult would be? Not abusing/harassing/threatening another person. Make rape and death threats is not acceptable behavior. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Because this is the internet and people need to grow up.
    I half agree and that's why people should be careful about what they put up. I mean, if you have no shame in how you feel. Be my guest. But prepare for the anonymous death threats. At the same time, no one should experience rape threats and if there is an option to disable comments... then they have every right in the world to do so. (though that's not going to stop people from bashing her)

    Women are already equal to men, however more rights are demanded every day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I half agree and that's why people should be careful about what they put up. I mean, if you have no shame in how you feel. Be my guest. But prepare for the anonymous death threats. At the same time, no one should experience rape threats and if there is an option to disable comments... then they have every right in the world to do so. (though that's not going to stop people from bashing her)
    Why do people have to be "careful" about pointing out tropes in the media? It's very obvious by watching TV, opening a magazine, etc. that women are treated very differently in the media. The idea of threatening bodily harm on someone for that is unacceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    No, women are not currently equal to men. Telling people to accept abuse and harassment is not telling them to grow up. You know what being a grown adult would be? Not abusing/harassing/threatening another person. Make rape and death threats is not acceptable behavior. Ever.
    No getting death threats is not right, but it should not stop a person from saying what needs to be said. I have the freedom of speech, I don't have the right not to be insulted. I have not harassed her, and I do think some men do abuse women, However not all men do this and feminist need to work on making stronger culture instead of blaming men for everything. Want to change the world, than stop talking about it and do something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    No getting death threats is not right, but it should not stop a person from saying what needs to be said. I have the freedom of speech, I don't have the right not to be insulted. I have not harassed her, and I do think some men do abuse women, However not all men do this and feminist need to work on making stronger culture instead of blaming men for everything. Want to change the world, than stop talking about it and do something about it.
    Where exactly did she vilify men and say they're the problem? Society as a whole is the problem. It just happens to be male-dominated and male-oriented. You have a freedom of speech and she isn't denying that in any way. She just doesn't want harassment on her videos. That's not much to ask. Nowhere did she say that all men abuse women. That's a straw man argument. As far as doing something, she is doing something. She's raising awareness about things that many people (including some women) may not have known about. Awareness is the first step in any movement. You can't change something you aren't aware of.
    Last edited by Pesky Persian; 19th March 2013 at 1:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Because this is the internet
    Why should the internet hold this privilege over all other forms of public media and discourse? A world where rape and death threats are publicly exchanged and acceptable hardly seems "grown up," but please, do enlighten me.

    EDIT: And actually, ebilly, this isn't about freedom of speech. Youtube is a private entity, hence why she had the option to remove comments and Youtube has the power to flag and remove comments. If she included comments, Youtube moderators would be fighting an uphill battle to remove comments that do not meet their terms of use.
    Last edited by bel9; 19th March 2013 at 1:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Why do people have to be "careful" about pointing out tropes in the media? It's very obvious by watching TV, opening a magazine, etc. that women are treated very differently in the media. The idea of threatening bodily harm on someone for that is unacceptable.
    I say that if someone doesn't want to be bombarded with death threats... then becareful. Look, I'm not saying "don't point out tropes" or "don't speak out". I mean I speak out alot of times, but then I have to consider the consequences. So does this girl and other people. Especially when you are speaking about touchy subjects.

    And I didn't say that threatening someone was right. I don't agree with this girl. But I don't like how she's being threatened the way she is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I say that if someone doesn't want to be bombarded with death threats... then becareful. Look, I'm not saying "don't point out tropes" or "don't speak out". I mean I speak out alot of times, but then I have to consider the consequences. So does this girl and other people. Especially when you are speaking about touchy subjects.

    And I didn't say that threatening someone was right. I don't agree with this girl. But I don't like how she's being threatened the way she is.
    She said she was bullied and had death threats, But I have yet to see one. She also has not answered any video replies. She opens up and complains yet refuses to accept any criticism. And that is how she plays the victim card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I say that if someone doesn't want to be bombarded with death threats... then becareful. Look, I'm not saying "don't point out tropes" or "don't speak out". I mean I speak out alot of times, but then I have to consider the consequences. So does this girl and other people. Especially when you are speaking about touchy subjects.

    And I didn't say that threatening someone was right. I don't agree with this girl. But I don't like how she's being threatened the way she is.
    Someone debating your points is an expected "consequence" of stating a controversial opinion. Threats of bodily harm and numerous acts of harassment should not be an expected outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    She said she was bullied and had death threats, But I have yet to see one. She also has not answered any video replies. She opens up and complains yet refuses to accept any criticism. And that is how she plays the victim card.
    Uh... Have you seen her Wikipedia page? Or actually done any research on what happened when she started posting these videos? She's not playing a victim. She is a victim of harassment but I don't see how she's "playing" anything. She disabled comments. That's not playing the victim. That's just keeping her video page civil.

    Edit: Just for kicks...

    I am certainly not the first woman to suffer this kind of harassment and sadly, I won’t be the last. But I’d just like to reiterate that this is not a trivial issue. It can not and should not be brushed off by saying, “oh well that’s YouTube for you“, “trolls will be trolls” or “it’s to be expected on the internet”. These are serious threats of violence, harassment and slander across many online platforms meant to intimidate and silence. And its not okay. Again, don't worry, this harassment will never stop me from making my videos! Thank you for all your support!
    Quote from this post

    Yep. Clearly she's playing the victim by not letting her harassers stop her from continuing her video series.
    Last edited by Pesky Persian; 19th March 2013 at 1:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    Yeah, it's still doable, but I think a lot of players would feel cheated. Let's say, for instance, at the end of Super Mario Bros., Peach asked you what took you so long because she'd already rescued herself... when the stated plot was basically to save the princess. That kind of "not normal" closure is probably "just too different" for a lot of people.

    A lot of people with very narrow views, arguably. But maybe -- and not to get all David Cage here -- my views are just different. A lot of people just don't like things that break molds.
    As long as you still include a good final boss fight, I don't think people will feel cheated by Peach already having been rescued - people are already tired of the kidnapping plot in half the Mario games, after all, and I don't think a change would be unwelcome. That said, Nintendo likes sticking to a formula, so the most resistance would probably come from them. Again, like I said, many people were unhappy with the Mass Effect 3 ending, but plenty of people still love the series, including the last game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Of course it is. It's perfectly ok to write poor, unoriginal material and insult your potential market if that's what you want to do.
    If you want to, sure, but they should stop being so surprised whenever there's a backlash against those decisions. At a certain point, it's time to rethink your decades-old strategy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfree View Post
    Additionally, while this kind of thing is brought up a lot in discussions of sexism by the anti-feminist side, it actually proves the feminist point. Sexism is a double-edged sword: the same attitude that fuels the Damsel in Distress trope, that women are passive, frail and helpless while men are active, strong and heroic, also leads to the idea that women are precious and men are disposable, that men should make disproportionate sacrifices for women, that women can't rape men, etc. etc. etc. Men are hurt by sexism too - but not because of some separate independent phenomenon of misandry, but by the exact same system that's hurting women. Fighting sexism benefits everyone at the same time. If the attitude that women are frail and need to be saved truly goes away, so does the expectation that men must lay down their lives for women in a way women don't need to for men. If the attitude that women are supposed to be motherly caretakers while men are the breadwinners goes away, so will the attitude that disproportionately gives custody of children to the mother in divorce cases. Feminists focus on the women's side of things because on balance women clearly have the short end of the stick in most regards, but when people point out that men are affected by gender discrimination too, I think, Yes, exactly! The fact this also hurts men is more reason we should try to change it, but anti-feminists keep bringing it up as if "Oh, this sucks for you? Well, it also sucks for us!" is somehow an argument for not trying to get rid of the sucky thing.
    Just wanted to restate this, because I'm sure everyone is going to miss it, and Dragonfree's point is golden. Sarkeesian will not be discussing how tropes affect men, because she isn't interested in or as knowledgeable about male representation and tropes in the media. But you don't have to look very far to see what the narratives we tell say about how we view men as well as women. Tropes are stereotypes help no-one.


    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    @ everyone saying she has the right to not allow comments... No not if she wants to be treated as equal to the "boys" Yeah she may get insulted, but this is the internet. If she is afraid of getting insulted she shouldn't be complaining about being equal.
    YouTubers of both genders ban comments, and you shouldn't have to allow them in order to be treated equally. And frankly, male and female YouTubers aren't treated the same way regardless, in that male YouTubers generally don't get harassment, especially sexual harassment, as much as female YouTubers do. You don't have to look very hard to find "nice tits" or "you're fat" or "too much makeup you look like a tramp" in the comments for female YouTubers, which frankly, you don't see in anywhere the same numbers for male YouTubers. YouTube comments sections are known as one of the greatest cesspools on the internet for good reason.

    And again, it's not a matter of her "afraid of getting insulted" - she is sick and tired of getting rape and death threats, which I think anyone would be. If people were not sending these threats, it would be a different story. And again, it's not like people can't response in ways other than YouTube comments.


    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Because this is the internet and people need to grow up. Women are already equal to men, however more rights are demanded every day.
    You know who should really grow up? People who send death and rape threats. When you're on the receiving end of thousands of them, it's a problem.

    Also, I don't know what planet you live on, but there are plenty of places in the world where you are disgustingly wrong about gender equality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I half agree and that's why people should be careful about what they put up. I mean, if you have no shame in how you feel. Be my guest. But prepare for the anonymous death threats. At the same time, no one should experience rape threats and if there is an option to disable comments... then they have every right in the world to do so. (though that's not going to stop people from bashing her)


    kekkon shi te kureru ?
    You should not have to "prepare for anonymous death threats" every time you want to speak your mind. You know who threatens death on those who speak up? The Taliban. They tried to kill a teenage girl who fights for the right of girls to get an education. We should never live in a society where speaking your mind means you are somehow welcoming death threats. Criticizing someone with logical arguments VS threatening to beat, rape or kill them, isn't the same thing and shouldn't be treated thus.

    Also, I would advise against posting in other languages that way, because we don't know what you're saying, and if we don't know what you're saying, we might think you were saying something against forum policy, and if that were the case, you can be infracted for it. Don't do it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    No getting death threats is not right, but it should not stop a person from saying what needs to be said. I have the freedom of speech, I don't have the right not to be insulted. I have not harassed her, and I do think some men do abuse women, However not all men do this and feminist need to work on making stronger culture instead of blaming men for everything. Want to change the world, than stop talking about it and do something about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    She said she was bullied and had death threats, But I have yet to see one. She also has not answered any video replies. She opens up and complains yet refuses to accept any criticism. And that is how she plays the victim card.
    You really need to do the tiny amount of necessary research and educate yourself on this topic: Sarkeesian has received death and rape threats since she announced the project months ago, and she has not let it stop her, as evidenced by the fact that she was not silenced and made videos and gave public speeches regardless.

    No, she will not be responding to every video response, because right now she is in the middle of a huge research project, including creating and submitting further content. She is busy with everything already on her plate.

    Also, feminists do try to create a less sexist culture, except that they receive so much resistance from people who don't believe that sexism is worth thinking or talking about and that women should just shut up because they already have it so good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    I say that if someone doesn't want to be bombarded with death threats... then becareful. Look, I'm not saying "don't point out tropes" or "don't speak out". I mean I speak out alot of times, but then I have to consider the consequences. So does this girl and other people. Especially when you are speaking about touchy subjects.

    And I didn't say that threatening someone was right. I don't agree with this girl. But I don't like how she's being threatened the way she is.
    As Pesky Persian said, yes, speaking your mind has "consequences," like people debating and countering what you say and do. It should NOT have consequences like people saying they will beat, rape, or kill you. How would you feel if every time you wanted to speak up you had to worry about being beaten, raped or killed? What kind of a society is that? Why should that kind of mindset ever be allowed?

    In real life, if you threaten to do any of those things to someone, there are real legal consequences you have to face, because it's against the law. So why should we act like it's okay to do on the internet?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    kekkon shi te kureru ?
    Gonna go throw up now.
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    Ok look guys I disagree with her statement, but can you let me fill out this life insurance paper out first before you tar and feather me? I guess what upsets me most is that no one stands up for the man anymore. You hear everyone complain about womens rights. Yeah the rights thing may not be perfect but it is not a societal problem. Women get raped in college. I can understand the pain there, Attack that. Women get paid less then men, well that is terrible. But do not bring video games into it. There is many more promising attacks that can be made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    @ everyone saying she has the right to not allow comments... No not if she wants to be treated as equal to the "boys" Yeah she may get insulted, but this is the internet. If she is afraid of getting insulted she shouldn't be complaining about being equal.
    She has the right to disallow comments. If she didn't have the right, she wouldn't be able too. Being equal to the boys? Nice job treating her like a child. I'm sure all the ladies just love to be around you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    this is the internet and people need to grow up.
    You should probably take your own advice.




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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    She has the right to disallow comments. If she didn't have the right, she wouldn't be able too. Being equal to the boys? Nice job treating her like a child. I'm sure all the ladies just love to be around you.

    You should probably take your own advice.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Ok look guys I disagree with her statement, but can you let me fill out this life insurance paper out first before you tar and feather me? I guess what upsets me most is that no one stands up for the man anymore. You hear everyone complain about womens rights. Yeah the rights thing may not be perfect but it is not a societal problem. Women get raped in college. I can understand the pain there, Attack that. Women get paid less then men, well that is terrible. But do not bring video games into it. There is many more promising attacks that can be made.
    not your precious video games

    with comments like those they'll be all you have though i guess. good like ever having any woman want to be around you if you put your stupid video games about a civil rights issue that concerns them
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    But do not bring video games into it. There is many more promising attacks that can be made.
    First off, video games are subject to criticism. That's just something you need to deal with. I would hardly even call these videos "attacks" though. It's thoughtful discussion on the portrayal of women in video games. She's not saying that video games are responsible for all sexism. It's purely an educational thing, which sadly a lot of people can't understand because their "precious videogames" are getting some commentary in a negative light.

    seriously can't understand how people are crying over this. They sound like oversensitive man children.

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    oversensitive manchildren doing nothing but complaining that women are questioning the fact that almost every female video game character in the history of the industry has served little purpose other than being eye candy, while every other medium of entertainment at least has fleshed-out female characters in more than a very tiny minority of their works?

    oversensitive manchildren complaining that women don't accept constant demeaning and objectification out of hand?

    surely you jest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eBay Huckster View Post
    almost every female video game character in the history of the industry has served little purpose other than being eye candy
    As Phlogiston pointed out earlier, Dixie Kong is the one exception.
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