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Thread: Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

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    I could write out a responce to Anita Sarkeesian, but it honestly would be TL;DR. So because of that, I decided to link two videos explaining my thoughts on the subject. What makes this even better is the first video is done by a woman

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=cj29-hepBiA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I
    Last edited by Vodka Haze; 30th March 2013 at 2:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Except you're clearly not, because you direct and categorise almost all criticism (and critics) of Sarkeesian as irrelevant and/or sexist because of the fact she's not released part 2 yet.
    Okay, maybe I'm just a little slow here on the draw homeslice, but I thought I asked you what arguments that I dismissed. Most of the arguments in this thread? Yes. Unless you can point out to me which specific arguments I'm ignoring as not relevant because part 2 isn't released that actually are relevant, I can't really see where you're coming from. The only arguments that I've observed that were relevant were from you actually, not that I agreed with them, but they were relevant to the video at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Haze View Post
    I could write out a responce to Anita Sarkeesian, but it honestly would be TL;DR. So because of that, I decided to link two videos explaining my thoughts on the subject. What makes this even better is the first video is done by a woman

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=cj29-hepBiA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I
    For the last time stop posting these videos, it's beating a dead horse.

    Also why does a woman doing counter arguments make it better? Women can be sexist against women too.
    Last edited by Sogeking; 30th March 2013 at 9:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodka Haze View Post
    I could write out a responce to Anita Sarkeesian, but it honestly would be TL;DR. So because of that, I decided to link two videos explaining my thoughts on the subject. What makes this even better is the first video is done by a woman

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=cj29-hepBiA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I
    Best part about this post is that writing out a response in a discussion thread is actually more viable at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crudelis ventus View Post
    Okay, maybe I'm just a little slow here on the draw homeslice, but I thought I asked you what arguments that I dismissed. Most of the arguments in this thread? Yes. Unless you can point out to me which specific arguments I'm ignoring as not relevant because part 2 isn't released that actually are relevant, I can't really see where you're coming from. The only arguments that I've observed that were relevant were from you actually, not that I agreed with them, but they were relevant to the video at least.
    You didn't dismiss so much as fail to recognise the legitimacy of any refutation of Sarkeesian's points (from those who aren't me).

    Quote Originally Posted by Crudelis ventus View Post
    Why do so many men have such a defensive, knee jerk reaction to what this woman is pointing out? Instead of opening your mind and saying "Hey, maybe she's right. Maybe videogames do subtly pervade an attitude of sexism." you fly off the handle and act as if she's accusing you individually of being sexist. Pointing out sexism in the media or other similar mediums is not an attack on you or the male gender. So why rush to the internet looking for any video that just happens to contradict this woman, when you haven't even seriously considered what she's said at all, and you're just looking for any sort of refutation without even considering its logical standing or merits?

    Don't make excuses like this to lessen the fact that you and others jumped the gun before she even released part 2. If you make irrational arguments when she's not finished, that's all on you. You don't get to flip it back on her and say "But she should have finished it all in one go." It doesn't quite work like that.
    The Part 2 argument isn't irrational. You also suggest that pretty much everyone who criticises Sarkeesian is irrational, almost ruling out the notion that people have considered the argument and still refute it. However, you've verified what you meant know, so meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking View Post
    For the last time stop posting these videos, it's beating a dead horse.

    Also why does a woman doing counter arguments make it better? Women can be sexist against women too.
    A brief compare and contrast.

    A woman/girl makes a perfectly reasonable (not that I agree with all of it, but still) response to Anita Sarkeesian's video.

    Sogeking dismisses this woman as sexist (probably without watching), while at the same time implying that any criticism of Sarkeesian is sexist.

    Who is being more of a bigot at this point? I'll give you a clue, it's not her.
    Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 31st March 2013 at 2:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post

    A brief compare and contrast.

    A woman/girl makes a perfectly reasonable (not that I agree with all of it, but still) response to Anita Sarkeesian's video.

    Sogeking dismisses this woman as sexist (probably without watching), while at the same time implying that any criticism of Sarkeesian is sexist.

    Who is being more of a bigot at this point? I'll give you a clue, it's not her.
    Nah, I was just talking more of the "Look, a girl is making the counterargument!" thing is kind of invalid because what does being a boy or girl have to do with being sexist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking View Post
    Nah, I was just talking more of the "Look, a girl is making the counterargument!" thing is kind of invalid because what does being a boy or girl have to do with being sexist?
    Absolutely nothing! I mean, just look at prostitutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Absolutely nothing! I mean, just look at prostitutes.
    Not really a good example, prostitution harmfulness towards women is actually disputed in feminism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Do I want feminism to end? Yes but I'm still sexually attracted to females and some perverted material still manages to hook me in as opposed to turn me off and I doubt this will end.
    I can't believe this needs to be said again, but:
    femˇiˇnism
    noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
    Definition of FEMINISM
    the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
    The only time feminism should end is when there is absolute gender equality, and we've still got a ways to go there. Feminism is not about stopping you from being sexually attracted to females or from attractive females appearing in mainstream media. It is, however, about ensuring better female representation is available in the media so women feel that their gender is represented in a fair and balanced way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Rubbish. The content she uses is perfectly legitimate criticism fodder. A lot of said criticisms are not reliant on the second part existing. Using the argument that "oh but the second part" for pretty much any (but not all) criticism towards Sarkeesian is nothing more than an attempt to suppress debate.
    I disagree. The majority of the response videos I've seen thus far have made the argument "well she didn't talk about X, Y or Z," at least once, such as "well she didn't talk about Super Princess Peach," which she specifically said she would cover later. A large number of people are not showing that they understand that this is only the first video of many, and frankly, we're getting tired of having to explain that again and again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    A woman/girl makes a perfectly reasonable (not that I agree with all of it, but still) response to Anita Sarkeesian's video.

    Sogeking dismisses this woman as sexist (probably without watching), while at the same time implying that any criticism of Sarkeesian is sexist.

    Who is being more of a bigot at this point? I'll give you a clue, it's not her.
    No, what Sogekind was saying was that the fact that the critic being female does not automatically lend legitimacy to her argument. Vodka Haze gleefully pointed out that the critic was female as if that made her argument more legitimate, which isn't how it works. That said, it's amusing that the majority of Sarkeesian's critics are males, and if there is a female one people point and say "see, see?!" as if that proves anything.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sogeking View Post
    Nah, I was just talking more of the "Look, a girl is making the counterargument!" thing is kind of invalid because what does being a boy or girl have to do with being sexist?
    Only how one reacts to it, I guess. It's widely accepted, in a way, that one can't discriminate against one's own group -- or usually doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazie View Post
    Not really a good example, prostitution harmfulness towards women is actually disputed in feminism.
    This is one of those things that really ought to be noted -- actually, though, in general, I think there's this rash of not understanding what feminism is, because its goal is liberation, is equality, is freedom. In many cases, I think that prostitution's harmfulness towards women has less to do with prostitution itself and more with specific factors, which can be dealt with (theoretically).
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    I can't even joke around? Sheesh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    No, what Sogekind was saying was that the fact that the critic being female does not automatically lend legitimacy to her argument. Vodka Haze gleefully pointed out that the critic was female as if that made her argument more legitimate, which isn't how it works. That said, it's amusing that the majority of Sarkeesian's critics are males, and if there is a female one people point and say "see, see?!" as if that proves anything.
    People pointing out females with counterarguments against her further proves her point.

    Everyone is forgetting an important fact; the human race is subject to gender roles even if there was equality between both genders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Everyone is forgetting an important fact; the human race is subject to gender roles even if there was equality between both genders.
    Mostly because people are basically not very bright. I think it'd be for the better if we just abandoned the existing system of genders. Gender is an invention of society at the end of the day.

    (Not sex. That's different. I shouldn't have to explain that, but there seem to be a lot of people who don't understand that when looking at this argument I'm positing.)
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    Removing gender is as easy as removing race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    Mostly because people are basically not very bright. I think it'd be for the better if we just abandoned the existing system of genders. Gender is an invention of society at the end of the day.

    (Not sex. That's different. I shouldn't have to explain that, but there seem to be a lot of people who don't understand that when looking at this argument I'm positing.)
    True, a world of hermaphrodites would be better but I was thinking of the roles of the mother and father.
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    And about as helpful, unfortunately, because even if we get over the hurdle of the idea that distinct human races exist, people will still basically discriminate through the same means, just with different words.

    Fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    True, a world of hermaphrodites would be better but I was thinking of the roles of the mother and father.
    Those aren't gender or even sex-specific, though.
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    I am extremely disappointed that the video hasn't been posted yet.
    Jackpot!

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    I have seen the video, however, I find that the "Damsel in Distress" trope is being used more and more loosely, as in a decline from straight up "Save the hot guurl!" Here are a few examples of a few games that use only small to faint hints of the trope:

    The Elder Scrolls V, Skyrim: Not only does this game allow you to play as a female character, but some of the leaders of the towns are in fact female. Additionally, the art style for females is rather modest (mods notwithstanding).

    Kid Icarus: Uprising: The main hero, Pit, can't fly without help from Palutena, the Goddess of Light. According to the game's lore, Palutena is superior in rank to Pit. Only for a couple chapters does Palutena need saving, but the majority of the game is spent on Palutena giving advice and guiding Pit in flight. The main villain, Medusa, is not strictly trying to kidnap Palutena, she is just trying to destroy the world.

    Halo Reach: In the settings, you can choose to play as a female Spartan. Additionally, there are virtually no hints of the Damsel in Distress trope.

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    Not really sure the Damsel in Distress trope is as big now than it once was. I mean back when Mario was first released and along with arcade games in those times you really had a few seconds to explain the storyline to the player and the Damsel trope fits this time gap well. Everyone instantly knows what the games about and the trope was also very popular to use back then like how superhero and remakes are popular films right now. The Mario games are now really just remake look how many times super Mario has been re-released for Nintendo consoles. Everyone loves Mario and its storyline setting of peach always being kidnapped so why bother changing it and risk angering fans?

    True the damsel does at points make women look weak but really the games were originally aimed at males and a woman in distress is an easy way to get a guys attention. Newer games I find focus less on this trope and if it is used it is just part of a much bigger storyline rather its just a way of helping to either start the story or keep it going. Look at Kingdom hearts the storyline is about Sora getting Kiari and Riku back but as the game goes on he does focus more on Kairi. Eventually it changes to stopping the heartless and saving their world with Kairi saving Sora from the darkness. Other games n the series focus on the story-lines development and doesn't use this trope anymore.

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    ^ Yes! Back in the 80s when games like Mario and Zelda came out having Peach or Zelda having to be saved is fine. also there was the hero of Metroid Samus Aran turning out to female at the end of the game; some people might complian that she had to remove her armor to do so but during that time it was nessicary to the world that hey you played a game as a girl the whole time and did you have fun? You bet!

    As for today well Mario and Zelda games may still have the "damel in distress" theme but tons of games have female leads Ex:

    Tomb Raider
    Beyond Good and Evil
    Shatnee

    Not to metion are the games and MMORPGs that let you choose a female char to play as.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    I can't even joke around? Sheesh...

    People pointing out females with counterarguments against her further proves her point.

    Everyone is forgetting an important fact; the human race is subject to gender roles even if there was equality between both genders.
    To be frank, it's hard to tell when people are joking on the internet at the best of times, plus people have genuinely been making the same point you made, including showing they have no idea what feminism really is, so it bears repeating.

    I'm not sure what point she made that you're referring to.

    I don't see the relevance of your last comment. People are more than roles relegated to them arbitrarily by hundreds of years of social constructs, and should not be treated as such. Having strict gender roles rarely benefits anyone (example: fathers rarely get child custody because "men aren't supposed to be primary caretakers") and it restricts and limits people's potential life choices. In addition, just because those roles exist doesn't mean we should treat people based exclusively on what role they play instead of something that actually matters (intellect, kindness, etc). "But gender roles" is a pointless and useless argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    Not really sure the Damsel in Distress trope is as big now than it once was. I mean back when Mario was first released and along with arcade games in those times you really had a few seconds to explain the storyline to the player and the Damsel trope fits this time gap well. Everyone instantly knows what the games about and the trope was also very popular to use back then like how superhero and remakes are popular films right now. The Mario games are now really just remake look how many times super Mario has been re-released for Nintendo consoles. Everyone loves Mario and its storyline setting of peach always being kidnapped so why bother changing it and risk angering fans?
    Where are you getting the idea that people are so in love with the "rescue Princess Peach" storyline that makes you say changing it would be a "risk"? Mario games tend to do well regardless of their plotline, and I doubt that taking Peach out of a damsel role would kill anyone. (Hell, Super Mario Sunshine was fine without it.) Frankly, plenty of people are tired of Nintendo using the same tired, unoriginal plots that they've been using for twenty years, and we'd be happy to see something different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    True the damsel does at points make women look weak but really the games were originally aimed at males and a woman in distress is an easy way to get a guys attention. Newer games I find focus less on this trope and if it is used it is just part of a much bigger storyline rather its just a way of helping to either start the story or keep it going. Look at Kingdom hearts the storyline is about Sora getting Kiari and Riku back but as the game goes on he does focus more on Kairi. Eventually it changes to stopping the heartless and saving their world with Kairi saving Sora from the darkness. Other games n the series focus on the story-lines development and doesn't use this trope anymore.
    The thing is you can easily get guys' attention without making female characters helpless and in need of saving. (Of course, female characters were made appealing to guys in others ways, such as sexualizing them like crazy, putting them in ridiculously revealing outfits, etc.) But people don't just choose to buy games based on the appeal of side characters, which is really what this argument is saying. You shouldn't have to debase an entire demographic, possibly alienating part of your potential audience, in order to sell a few games to the few people who actually care about something like this that has no impact on the actual gameplay.

    Also, the fact remains that the trope still gets used, period. There are games that don't use it, of course, but some still do, whether it's the main plot or a small sub-plot, and that's ridiculous in the year 2013.


    Quote Originally Posted by WildHennaCharizard View Post
    ^ Yes! Back in the 80s when games like Mario and Zelda came out having Peach or Zelda having to be saved is fine. also there was the hero of Metroid Samus Aran turning out to female at the end of the game; some people might complian that she had to remove her armor to do so but during that time it was nessicary to the world that hey you played a game as a girl the whole time and did you have fun? You bet!

    As for today well Mario and Zelda games may still have the "damel in distress" theme but tons of games have female leads Ex:

    Tomb Raider
    Beyond Good and Evil
    Shatnee

    Not to metion are the games and MMORPGs that let you choose a female char to play as.
    Again, "oh but some games' main characters are female" doesn't make Sarkeesian's point any less relevant. The fact remains that not only games, but also movies, tv shows, books, board games, etc, use the damsel in distress trope to disempower a female character, making her helpless and useless while a male character plays the hero or goes through life-changing character development in his epic quest to save her.

    Also, Samus was female all along - people just didn't notice until Nintendo decided she had to take off the armour and reveal her in a skintight bodysuit.


    The point is that just because a couple games have half-decent female characters does not mean that there is not a problem with how female characters tend to be represented overall. There are certainly less good female characters than there are crappy ones, and I as a woman am tired of seeing such terrible and stereotyped representations of my gender. Ask gay people or black people about how they feel regarding how their group has been portrayed in the media and those with an analytical eye will probably say they're disappointed, too. These are things that still need improvement, and that's Sarkeesian's point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    In addition, just because those roles exist doesn't mean we should treat people based exclusively on what role they play instead of something that actually matters (intellect, kindness, etc). "But gender roles" is a pointless and useless argument.
    Mistreating people due to to intellect, perceived or otherwise, is also bigoted. Let's try not encouraging people to do that. (And I don't mean this is some sarcastic or derailing way, back in the 19th century eugenicists used advocate sterilizing people of supposedly low intelligence)
    Last edited by Zazie; 8th April 2013 at 2:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    To be frank, it's hard to tell when people are joking on the internet at the best of times, plus people have genuinely been making the same point you made, including showing they have no idea what feminism really is, so it bears repeating.

    I'm not sure what point she made that you're referring to.

    I don't see the relevance of your last comment. People are more than roles relegated to them arbitrarily by hundreds of years of social constructs, and should not be treated as such. Having strict gender roles rarely benefits anyone (example: fathers rarely get child custody because "men aren't supposed to be primary caretakers") and it restricts and limits people's potential life choices. In addition, just because those roles exist doesn't mean we should treat people based exclusively on what role they play instead of something that actually matters (intellect, kindness, etc). "But gender roles" is a pointless and useless argument.



    Where are you getting the idea that people are so in love with the "rescue Princess Peach" storyline that makes you say changing it would be a "risk"? Mario games tend to do well regardless of their plotline, and I doubt that taking Peach out of a damsel role would kill anyone. (Hell, Super Mario Sunshine was fine without it.) Frankly, plenty of people are tired of Nintendo using the same tired, unoriginal plots that they've been using for twenty years, and we'd be happy to see something different.


    The thing is you can easily get guys' attention without making female characters helpless and in need of saving. (Of course, female characters were made appealing to guys in others ways, such as sexualizing them like crazy, putting them in ridiculously revealing outfits, etc.) But people don't just choose to buy games based on the appeal of side characters, which is really what this argument is saying. You shouldn't have to debase an entire demographic, possibly alienating part of your potential audience, in order to sell a few games to the few people who actually care about something like this that has no impact on the actual gameplay.

    Also, the fact remains that the trope still gets used, period. There are games that don't use it, of course, but some still do, whether it's the main plot or a small sub-plot, and that's ridiculous in the year 2013.



    Again, "oh but some games' main characters are female" doesn't make Sarkeesian's point any less relevant. The fact remains that not only games, but also movies, tv shows, books, board games, etc, use the damsel in distress trope to disempower a female character, making her helpless and useless while a male character plays the hero or goes through life-changing character development in his epic quest to save her.

    Also, Samus was female all along - people just didn't notice until Nintendo decided she had to take off the armour and reveal her in a skintight bodysuit.


    The point is that just because a couple games have half-decent female characters does not mean that there is not a problem with how female characters tend to be represented overall. There are certainly less good female characters than there are crappy ones, and I as a woman am tired of seeing such terrible and stereotyped representations of my gender. Ask gay people or black people about how they feel regarding how their group has been portrayed in the media and those with an analytical eye will probably say they're disappointed, too. These are things that still need improvement, and that's Sarkeesian's point.

    ~Psychic


    So wait just because you don't agree with the damsel in distress trope means that all who use it are wrong to do so? Yes it is still used just like other tropes were back in the day ie a male hero has to be buff and over 6 foot minus a few obvious characters. Yes the trope does degrade women but how many tropes are there that someone isn't degraded or have their feelings hurt. If we were to do what you want and get ride of it we would have to get ride of all the other tropes where someone has there feelings hurt and what will we be left with? no games at all! Tropes are everywhere in every media and I bet that you often have thoughts that fall in to a trope because there are almost tropes of everything a human can do.

    And as I had said back when Mario was first released the games didn't have a lot of time to explain the story so the damsel trope got overkilled, the creators didn't see it to be sexist or degrading in anyway it was just something that can be used. There might be other ways to make a good storyline but no game company is gonna waste a lot of time with it if they think that the damsel in distress trope will help make a game sell.

    You seem to forget that Gaming companies are there for one thing and that is to make a profit. They don't go out of their way to offend anyone they just do what they can to make money. If a games storyline has the DID in it and it helps make the storyline of a game great why would the gaming companies take it out just to keep happy some people that don't like it and risk losing a bigger market from gamers who are turned off because the storyline of the game sucks. That's what movies, TV shows, books and games do, make a profit for someone. These types of media do not influence people they are made to satisfy a market and if that market likes how things are they aren't going to rock the boat.

    This is what a lot of feminists forget about these games and that is they are made to make a profit. Companies don't go out of their way to alienate a certain group they just what money. Feminists though have managed to alienate themselves however from a lot of male gamers by attacking the games they love and they themselves and by doing so have lost a lot of support to the very group they need on their side if they wish to make changes.

    And before you attack me as sexist I believe in rights for both male and female, I do not believe in labeling people into groups. However I also know that some things will never change its human nature look at how after two world wars and humanity is still at. Instead of trying to kill the trope cmpletely and making themselves look like control freaks (which they will look like to other people) they should instead push to have more games where the main character is female and maybe have to save a male. Look if feminsts what change they are gonna have to get of their backsides and try to help change come along but for the love of God drop this whole the DID has to die, there are drops out there that insult men just as much as women and you don't see many men trying to change that.

  23. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    And as I had said back when Mario was first released the games didn't have a lot of time to explain the story so the damsel trope got overkilled, the creators didn't see it to be sexist or degrading in anyway it was just something that can be used. There might be other ways to make a good storyline but no game company is gonna waste a lot of time with it if they think that the damsel in distress trope will help make a game sell.

    You seem to forget that Gaming companies are there for one thing and that is to make a profit. They don't go out of their way to offend anyone they just do what they can to make money. If a games storyline has the DID in it and it helps make the storyline of a game great why would the gaming companies take it out just to keep happy some people that don't like it and risk losing a bigger market from gamers who are turned off because the storyline of the game sucks. That's what movies, TV shows, books and games do, make a profit for someone. These types of media do not influence people they are made to satisfy a market and if that market likes how things are they aren't going to rock the boat.

    This is what a lot of feminists forget about these games and that is they are made to make a profit. Companies don't go out of their way to alienate a certain group they just what money. Feminists though have managed to alienate themselves however from a lot of male gamers by attacking the games they love and they themselves and by doing so have lost a lot of support to the very group they need on their side if they wish to make changes.
    So what excuse does the Mario games of this day and age have besides lazy writing? Super Mario Bros. 3, arguably the greatest Mario game ever, shows it's not a necessary plot device. Sure Peach gets kidnapped in that one too, but that doesn't happen until you've already played through seven worlds, proving it's not something needed to sell games or draw in players. The game would have done perfectly well without the Damsel in Distress trope. These are also the same people who created Yoshi, quite possibly the most inoffensive video game character ever. They've shown they are more than capable of making successful games that don't offend anybody, they just choose not to. The Damsel in Distress trope is just so easy to use that it's become a crutch they rely on and is now expected by fans. That ease of use is why the trope is so prevalent and is not only harmful to the women it disempowers, but also a disservice to gamers who are robbed of potentially great stories simply because writers opt to take the easy way out.
    Last edited by Silvershark; 8th April 2013 at 5:32 PM.
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  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    there are drops out there that insult men just as much as women and you don't see many men trying to change that.
    You must not have heard of MRA's. I envy you if that's the case.
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  25. #400
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    Part 2 has finally been released. Let the discussion continue!

    I hope nobody minds that I bumped this topic from beyond the grave. I had no idea she would take that long to continue her series.
    Last edited by Sadib; 29th May 2013 at 2:01 AM.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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