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Thread: Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    I wasn't being intentionally dishonest. You just seem incapable of wrapping your mind around the idea that there's a difference between a literal patriarchy (involving actual government) and a societal one (involving a cultural social hierarchy). It's not my fault that you can't see that Sarkeesian is discussing the latter and that a societal patriarchy is actually a huge part of western culture. Not even addressing any of her points, but just writing it off as ridiculous because you have a personal vendetta against feminists is actually adding nothing of merit to the conversation. I don't care that you disagree with me or anyone else.
    1. Well, I said intellectually dishonest which is kind of different, but ok. If you weren't being dishonest you were being ignorant.

    2. I'm not at all incapable of doing so. I've noted in this very thread that aspects of patriarchy linger in our society (though I don't believe it stretches as far as many think). However, Sarkeesian has never (and certainly has not done so in the tropes vs women series) defined her terms of patriarchy, so you are putting words in her mouth. In short, you are once again being intellectually dishonest.

    Let's assume for a second though that she is using a "societal" example of patriarchy as opposed to a "literal" one. If this is the case, then her inability to define her terms are even worse, because views as to what constitutes a societal patriarchy are going to be far more wide-ranging than the literal definition, which is far more rigid.

    3. Yeah, the problem is she's not making any points. She has not defined her terms, she is not using statistics (though she did in the new one make an incredibly vile attempt to group together (I'd stop short of saying relate; she is not that stupid) domestic violence and video games), she is not investigating the root and/or motivations behind the trope to any degree, she is not taking wider context into account, she is not offering solutions. There are plenty of (good) videos out there taking Sarkeesian's dishonest examples to task.

    Ha, I have no "personal vendetta" against feminists. What a poor attempt at a personal attack.

    4. No, clearly not.

    Honestly, the best thing that Sarkeesian could have done with a significant portion of the money (when she saw she was going to get c.150k) would have been to put aside a good chunk and use it to actually proactively change something. A course/scholarship for some young writers (of both genders) to get into the field of creative writing within video games would have been a great idea. Will she do so? Not holding my breath.

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    I think you're just playing with semantics on the patriarchy thing. It is so unimportant to find the concrete range she defines it in. No matter what range you go to, the point of women being marginalized in society in some fashion still stands. So as long as they are marginalized in some form or some way (in part 2, this would be in relation to domestic violence), her central point is easy to interpret. You may not agree with it, but don't pretend that you're confused by it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    <snip>
    It probably helps to maybe mark numbers when you bold multiple statements in a quote for response. Especially if they're next to each other.

    Also, I think we understand the basis of what the patriarchy is, so why does she have to explain it again? People who don't get it already are probably not going to understand -- and won't be interested in understanding, in some cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    1. Well, I said intellectually dishonest which is kind of different, but ok. If you weren't being dishonest you were being ignorant.

    2. I'm not at all incapable of doing so. I've noted in this very thread that aspects of patriarchy linger in our society (though I don't believe it stretches as far as many think). However, Sarkeesian has never (and certainly has not done so in the tropes vs women series) defined her terms of patriarchy, so you are putting words in her mouth. In short, you are once again being intellectually dishonest.

    Let's assume for a second though that she is using a "societal" example of patriarchy as opposed to a "literal" one. If this is the case, then her inability to define her terms are even worse, because views as to what constitutes a societal patriarchy are going to be far more wide-ranging than the literal definition, which is far more rigid.

    3. Yeah, the problem is she's not making any points. She has not defined her terms, she is not using statistics (though she did in the new one make an incredibly vile attempt to group together (I'd stop short of saying relate; she is not that stupid) domestic violence and video games), she is not investigating the root and/or motivations behind the trope to any degree, she is not taking wider context into account, she is not offering solutions. There are plenty of (good) videos out there taking Sarkeesian's dishonest examples to task.

    Ha, I have no "personal vendetta" against feminists. What a poor attempt at a personal attack.

    4. No, clearly not.

    Honestly, the best thing that Sarkeesian could have done with a significant portion of the money (when she saw she was going to get c.150k) would have been to put aside a good chunk and use it to actually proactively change something. A course/scholarship for some young writers (of both genders) to get into the field of creative writing within video games would have been a great idea. Will she do so? Not holding my breath.
    1. Call me ignorant. I still stand by what I said.

    2. Her viewers (and you) are perfectly capable of doing your own research into what a patriarchy within the confines of feminist theory entails. It is such a commonly used word with such a known definition that she doesn't have to define it.

    3. I don't believe she's saying video games = domestic violence. Right now in the series, it seems to be more like bringing the representations of women in video games to the forefront. Not so much making solid connections, but more bringing awareness to the negative portrayals of women in the video game medium. I don't really thinking linking violence against women in the media with violence against women in real life is such a stretch. Consider the massive amounts of verbal (and physical if a woman goes to a con) harassment that female gamers (and Sarkeesian herself just for pointing out negative portrayals of women) face on a daily basis and it seems like less of a stretch. Not that violent media causes violence, but that it normalizes it to a degree.

    Also, before anyone else complains about Sarkeesian wasting the money she raised, I suggest you watch this video. If you don't have the time (or are too lazy) to watch the whole ten-minute video, skip to about 8:30. She says that because of the massive amounts of money she's raised, this project is going from five videos to thirteen videos and will include a classroom curriculum that educators can use for free (literally her words). I think that's proactively working to change something, don't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    I think you're just playing with semantics on the patriarchy thing. It is so unimportant to find the concrete range she defines it in. No matter what range you go to, the point of women being marginalized in society in some fashion still stands. So as long as they are marginalized in some form or some way (in part 2, this would be in relation to domestic violence), her central point is easy to interpret. You may not agree with it, but don't pretend that you're confused by it.
    No ****. Semantics are important when attempting to make nuanced social commentary.

    I'm not confused by it. I'm confused by people holding up Sarkeesian as a valid social commentator.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Admiral View Post
    It probably helps to maybe mark numbers when you bold multiple statements in a quote for response. Especially if they're next to each other.

    Also, I think we understand the basis of what the patriarchy is, so why does she have to explain it again? People who don't get it already are probably not going to understand -- and won't be interested in understanding, in some cases.
    I don't understand the basis of the patriarchy. What does she mean by it? Does she mean a strict literal definition? Does she see it in societal terms? Does she think (or more importantly, have some evidence) that it directly affects the way people are making and that subsequently these games are actively defining and encouraging social attitudes? We don't know because she doesn't say.

    Her failure to define an argument cannot be brushed away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    1. Call me ignorant. I still stand by what I said.

    2. Her viewers (and you) are perfectly capable of doing your own research into what a patriarchy within the confines of feminist theory entails. It is such a commonly used word with such a known definition that she doesn't have to define it.

    3. I don't believe she's saying video games = domestic violence. Right now in the series, it seems to be more like bringing the representations of women in video games to the forefront. Not so much making solid connections, but more bringing awareness to the negative portrayals of women in the video game medium. I don't really thinking linking violence against women in the media with violence against women in real life is such a stretch. Consider the massive amounts of verbal (and physical if a woman goes to a con) harassment that female gamers (and Sarkeesian herself just for pointing out negative portrayals of women) face on a daily basis and it seems like less of a stretch. Not that violent media causes violence, but that it normalizes it to a degree.

    Also, before anyone else complains about Sarkeesian wasting the money she raised, I suggest you watch this video. If you don't have the time (or are too lazy) to watch the whole ten-minute video, skip to about 8:30. She says that because of the massive amounts of money she's raised, this project is going from five videos to thirteen videos and will include a classroom curriculum that educators can use for free (literally her words). I think that's proactively working to change something, don't you?
    1. Well then, let the human right to eat cheetos be forever enshrined within our societies and their doctrines. God bless intellectual dishonesty.

    2. Why should I have to do my own research? They are not my videos and the burden of proof is not upon me. If you can't work that out then your arguments can't be taken seriously. Who needs proof eh? I said it so it's true.

    Your second sentence in that paragraph contradicts what you said previously.

    3. Linking anything to anything is a stretch when you do not have evidence to back it up. She does not provide it, and instead makes a rather vile attempt to associate (not compare) the truth.

    4. I call that attempted indoctrination of children. That's ****ing vile.
    Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 30th May 2013 at 7:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post

    1. Well then, let the human right to eat cheetos be forever enshrined within our societies and their doctrines. God bless intellectual dishonesty.

    2. Why should I have to do my own research? They are not my videos and the burden of proof is not upon me. If you can't work that out then your arguments can't be taken seriously. Who needs proof eh? I said it so it's true.

    Your second sentence in that paragraph contradicts what you said previously.

    3. Linking anything to anything is a stretch when you do not have evidence to back it up. She does not provide it, and instead makes a rather vile attempt to associate (not compare) the truth.

    4. I call that attempted indoctrination of children. That's ****ing vile.
    1. I don't remember mentioning anything about Cheetos, but I'm all for a measure for making tasty cheese-flavored snacks a human right. Fuck the system, eat Cheetos.

    2. Because it's not her job to teach you about feminism? I don't think her holding your hand through the definition of a social patriarchy is really that necessary. It's implied that the viewers already know what it entails. If you don't understand something, you look it up. Yet again, this is part 2 of a 13-video series. We're in the awareness stage of this project.

    3. When I said linking, I wasn't necessarily arguing that she was linking them in that one causes the other. I meant that the violence against women shown in the media portrays things that are real threats to women in the real world. People often write those things off as fiction, which, yes, the stories themselves are fictional but the violence against women is a very real thing.

    4. She didn't actually say which age groups the curriculum would be for. Also, talking about women's issues is indoctrination now? Lolwut. Also, welcome to America where the history is viewed through Eurocentric rose-tinted glasses and minority groups don't matter. I'd say the school system's bullshit view of American history is already more indoctrinating than anything else.
    Last edited by Pesky Persian; 30th May 2013 at 7:36 PM.

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    Felt like more of the same just with more gruesome examples. Much more gruesome examples. I avoid those kinds of games for good reason.

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    What?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Felt like more of the same just with more gruesome examples. Much more gruesome examples. I avoid those kinds of games for good reason.

    What?!
    Lol I'm pretty sure that was just sarcasm based on how long it took the second one to be made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    Lol I'm pretty sure that was just sarcasm based on how long it took the second one to be made.
    About a month and a half. I was expecting sooner but it's not that bad to be honest. I really have nothing else to add to this discussion; I felt horrible discussing it last time and from what I've seen from now and before everything is going to go in circles. However I am certain a strong counterargument can be made if one digs deep into the gender roles of the mother and father. All I can be certain of is that, like race equality, gender equality is going to take time.

    Off topic, call it odd but I have a strong desire of hearing Doug Walker's (the Nostalgia Critic) opinion on this once the series is done. I don't know why, I just do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    About a month and a half. I was expecting sooner but it's not that bad to be honest. I really have nothing else to add to this discussion; I felt horrible discussing it last time and from what I've seen from now and before everything is going to go in circles. However I am certain a strong counterargument can be made if one digs deep into the gender roles of the mother and father. All I can be certain of is that, like race equality, gender equality is going to take time.

    Off topic, call it odd but I have a strong desire of hearing Doug Walker's (the Nostalgia Critic) opinion on this once the series is done. I don't know why, I just do.
    I get that lol, I"m just explaining the comment he made.
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    I don't have too much of a problem with Sarkeesian's message. I mean, I think there are much, much worse things happening to women than being portrayed stereotypically in video games, and it's not like men aren't portrayed in stereotypical ways either. But it's not a terrible message to want to get across. I mostly play J-RPGs, which tend to have lots of badass female characters, but I can understand that other genres are lacking there.

    My problem with Sarkeesian is threefold:

    1) I hate her politics. For one thing, she censors all comments and ratings from her videos. I understand that internet trolls are annoying, but what about people who want to have an honest debate or who rationally disagree with her? She makes it impossible to debate her and basically just sticks her fingers in her ears. Her not allowing video or audio at her press conferences is also very poor form. If she wants to get her message across, wouldn't she be happy if people shared it? Again, I know internet trolls are a problem, but cutting everyone else off like this isn't the solution.

    2) She uses the trolls to get publicity. She basically stands there and says, "Look at me! I'm a victim of trolling!" in order to get her message across. I'm sorry, but if you can't get your message across without playing the victim and pointing out the stupidity of all these basement-dwelling 4chan'ers, you're not a very committed, intelligent person.

    3) I think she's a scam-artist. She got over $150,000 for a $6,000 project. Does anyone believe for one second that her Tropes vs Women series is going to cost nearly that much to make? In fact, she often asks her fans to do free research for her. You know, Sarkeesian... you got $150,000. When you make an honest effort to avoid using that money for what it was intended for - funding your project - I tend to get behind anyone who asks where all that money went. My guess is on a new vacation home.

    So, long story short, I don't have a problem with feminists or fixing the stereotypical sexism (for both genders) in video games. I just think Sarkeesian is a liar, coward and is counterproductive to this cause. And the idea that someone would use a topic as sensitive and serious as sexism to make money makes me sick to my stomach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxedLunch View Post
    I don't have too much of a problem with Sarkeesian's message. I mean, I think there are much, much worse things happening to women than being portrayed stereotypically in video games, and it's not like men aren't portrayed in stereotypical ways either. But it's not a terrible message to want to get across. I mostly play J-RPGs, which tend to have lots of badass female characters, but I can understand that other genres are lacking there.

    My problem with Sarkeesian is threefold:

    1) I hate her politics. For one thing, she censors all comments and ratings from her videos. I understand that internet trolls are annoying, but what about people who want to have an honest debate or who rationally disagree with her? She makes it impossible to debate her and basically just sticks her fingers in her ears. Her not allowing video or audio at her press conferences is also very poor form. If she wants to get her message across, wouldn't she be happy if people shared it? Again, I know internet trolls are a problem, but cutting everyone else off like this isn't the solution.

    2) She uses the trolls to get publicity. She basically stands there and says, "Look at me! I'm a victim of trolling!" in order to get her message across. I'm sorry, but if you can't get your message across without playing the victim and pointing out the stupidity of all these basement-dwelling 4chan'ers, you're not a very committed, intelligent person.

    3) I think she's a scam-artist. She got over $150,000 for a $6,000 project. Does anyone believe for one second that her Tropes vs Women series is going to cost nearly that much to make? In fact, she often asks her fans to do free research for her. You know, Sarkeesian... you got $150,000. When you make an honest effort to avoid using that money for what it was intended for - funding your project - I tend to get behind anyone who asks where all that money went. My guess is on a new vacation home.

    So, long story short, I don't have a problem with feminists or fixing the stereotypical sexism (for both genders) in video games. I just think Sarkeesian is a liar, coward and is counterproductive to this cause. And the idea that someone would use a topic as sensitive and serious as sexism to make money makes me sick to my stomach.
    you used a lot of words when all you really needed to say was "i am probably a mens rights activist, sexist and also a complete asshole"

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    Oh, wow. Personal insults much? How about you try to argue my point instead of acting like a butthurt child? I never said I disagreed with Sarkeesian's message. I said I disagree with the way she's going about it and think she's ripping people off. Don't like my opinions on Sarkeesian? Great. Debate me and tell me why you think I'm wrong. When you whine that I'm just a sexist asshole, all you do is show me how incapable you are of behaving like an adult.

    Oh, and I'm a HUMAN'S rights activist, not a men's or women's rights activist. Both genders are treated unfairly at times, and they should be treated the same. I'm sure you'll find this sexist too, though. Much better to treat women like incapable victims, right?
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    I just did. I stated my opinion, you got butthurt about it, and now I'm waiting for an actual intelligent rebuttal. Your half-asssed response leads me to believe you're either admitting defeat indirectly because you lack the intelligence or patience to properly debate me, or you're just trolling. Whatever the case, if you don't have anything informative and un-insulting to say, why bother to even post?
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    you have bested me in combat


    edit

    lol i just noticed your sig


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    are you seriously this person

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    Okay. Remind me to put you on my list of SPPf members who should not be taken seriously ever, all right?

    Edit: Sorry to burst your ego-bubble. I'm sure you really enjoyed pretending you were intelligent and unique because you could read kana at a snail's pace. In any case, how about we stop this off-topic crap about now? If you want to argue with me about my signature because you can't pick holes in my Sarkeesian arguments, do it in a PM. If you want to actually debate Sarkeesian herself, do it here.
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    no i seriously do think you are an MRA, sexist and also an asshole

    that bit was def. serious

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    I explained to you that I'm not those things, and if you do think I'm those things, how about you debate my points and shoot me down in an intellectual argument instead of just saying, "You're a sexist asshole," and resorting to completely off-topic insults because you can't argue properly?
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    AAAAAND we're done.
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    yeah i bet that woman who made a video series about sexism in gaming used 150,000 to buy a vacation home

    especially when you can't even get a decent normal home for that much :wank1:

    you know what i can't even be bothered to find the emoticon expressing how absurd i think such a statement is
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxedLunch View Post
    I don't have too much of a problem with Sarkeesian's message. I mean, I think there are much, much worse things happening to women than being portrayed stereotypically in video games, and it's not like men aren't portrayed in stereotypical ways either. But it's not a terrible message to want to get across. I mostly play J-RPGs, which tend to have lots of badass female characters, but I can understand that other genres are lacking there.

    My problem with Sarkeesian is threefold:

    1) I hate her politics. For one thing, she censors all comments and ratings from her videos. I understand that internet trolls are annoying, but what about people who want to have an honest debate or who rationally disagree with her? She makes it impossible to debate her and basically just sticks her fingers in her ears. Her not allowing video or audio at her press conferences is also very poor form. If she wants to get her message across, wouldn't she be happy if people shared it? Again, I know internet trolls are a problem, but cutting everyone else off like this isn't the solution.

    2) She uses the trolls to get publicity. She basically stands there and says, "Look at me! I'm a victim of trolling!" in order to get her message across. I'm sorry, but if you can't get your message across without playing the victim and pointing out the stupidity of all these basement-dwelling 4chan'ers, you're not a very committed, intelligent person.

    3) I think she's a scam-artist. She got over $150,000 for a $6,000 project. Does anyone believe for one second that her Tropes vs Women series is going to cost nearly that much to make? In fact, she often asks her fans to do free research for her. You know, Sarkeesian... you got $150,000. When you make an honest effort to avoid using that money for what it was intended for - funding your project - I tend to get behind anyone who asks where all that money went. My guess is on a new vacation home.

    So, long story short, I don't have a problem with feminists or fixing the stereotypical sexism (for both genders) in video games. I just think Sarkeesian is a liar, coward and is counterproductive to this cause. And the idea that someone would use a topic as sensitive and serious as sexism to make money makes me sick to my stomach.
    Lol publicity?? Trust me I think her words speak for themselves, she's done her homework.

    Also I don't know where you live but in cali, you can barely get a run down shake for even 200,000.

    Read this before you say she played the victim card:

    "The project triggered a campaign of sexist harassment that Amanda Marcotte in Slate magazine described as an "absolute avalanche of misogynist abuse," in which "[e]very access point they could exploit was used to try to get to her ..."[12] The New York Times reported that she was e-mailed images of herself being raped by video game characters.[13] Attempts were made to hack her Twitter and Google accounts, doctored images of her were posted online, negative comments were posted to her YouTube and Facebook pages, and an Internet game was created – Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian – where users could punch her image until the screen turned red.[14] Her Wikipedia article was repeatedly vandalized with images of sex acts.[15] Her website was subjected to denial-of-service attacks, and there were efforts to obtain and distribute her personal contact information.[16] The people behind the campaign awarded each other "Internet points" for the abuse on forums; Sarkeesian argued that they had "gamified" misogyny.[13]
    Sarkeesian posted examples of the harassment on her blog, and supporters responded by donating over $150,000 to her project.[14] The situation helped to bring the issue of pervasive sexual harassment in the video game culture to mainstream media attention, with discussions occurring in a range of publications and outlets, including The New York Times, The Guardian and New Statesman.[17] Sarkeesian told the news show 16x9 that online harassment and threats have become the norm for female gamers.[18] She told The New York Times: "The gaming industry is actually in the process of changing. That's a really positive thing, but I think there is a small group of male gamers who feel like gaming belongs to them, and are really terrified of that change happening."[14]
    The campaign also led to speaking engagements on related topics. In 2012, Sarkeesian was a speaker at the TEDxWomen conference, discussing online sexual harassment and the nature of online communities.[19] In June 2012, video game developer Bungie invited Sarkeesian to its offices to present on the creation of female characters in games.[20]"

    Her goal was 6,000 dollars, she didn't ask for the other money and no one forced them to give it to her.

    Tell me, if all of that happened to you, would you just stay silent and accept it??
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    Also I don't know where you live but in cali, you can barely get a run down shake for even 200,000.
    And it's the same in her native Canada, at least with regards to houses/condos being hella expensive to buy nowadays. Someone using that $150,000 thing as a line of attack with that in mind (without even getting into how the money was ACTUALLY SPENT) is honestly someone I wouldn't be seriously debating, because it's clown shoes.
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