Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[ParaChomp]

It's just the introduction. She's not done by a longshot.

Nope, until equality is reached, she won't stop until she's a corpse. Urge to ask dumb off-topic question!

[Snorunt conservationist]

It's a funny old world when a person with nothing radical, revolutionary or really worthwhile to say can get 160k donated to her because of a few moronic trolls.

[eBay Huckster]

yeah, you'd know a lot about not having anything worthwhile to say, wouldn't you

[Snorunt conservationist]

yeah, you'd know a lot about not having anything worthwhile to say, wouldn't you

A grade material out tonight.

[eBay Huckster]

i'm glad you recognize i am part of misc's a-list, not sure how thats relevant to this thread though

[moot]

any more sexist / pointlessly argumentative posts will be infracted
tia

[Zazie]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, the world would be a lot better if we were all hermaphrodites.

Hermaphrodite is a rude term. You should use intersex instead. (not trying to argue here, just educate.)

[ParaChomp]

Hermaphrodite is a rude term. You should use intersex instead. (not trying to argue here, just educate.)

Really? I've heard it used on the National Geographic channel and it's in the Wii U's dictionary.

any more sexist / pointlessly argumentative posts will be infracted
tia

...I'm just going to say that the stage feels so inviting for your simple performance and there's a sniper waiting for you to take it.

[pikadon92]

She has a one-sided view, for starters. From what I had saw, she implied that only females are affected negatively by this consequence. Some tropes would portray women incorrectly as a consequence, but there are other tropes that consequently portray men negatively as well. And there are some tropes that affect both genders in a bad way, albeit differently. For more details, go here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...DoubleStandard

It also seems to me that she thinks tropes are inflexible and rigid, in that, for example, the Distressed Damsel is not necessary female. Though it has a specific male counterpart.

[Fearless123]

This is an easy one:

Mario:

-Princess Peach typical blonde, the femme and damsal in distress.

Zelda series:

-Zelda *always* needs to be rescued by Link. Her main role is to play the damsel in distress while Link is obviously the hero. At least she aids Link in some ways with her rescue.

Pokemon series:

-Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon
-The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.
-The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.
-The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.
-Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."
-The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.
-In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.

[marioguy]

any more sexist / pointlessly argumentative posts will be infracted
tia

Which posts were sexist? If you think that topic might become a huge debate, perhaps you should move it to the debate forum.

Really? I've heard it used on the National Geographic channel and it's in the Wii U's dictionary..

The term is usually used for other animals like worms.

This is an easy one:

Mario:

-Princess Peach typical blonde, the femme and damsal in distress.

Zelda series:

-Zelda *always* needs to be rescued by Link. Her main role is to play the damsel in distress while Link is obviously the hero. At least she aids Link in some ways with her rescue.

Pokemon series:

-Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon
-The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.
-The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.
-The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.
-Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."
-The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.
-In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.

Not to mention that in the first two generations, females had lower attack, but that's a completely different story.

[Fearless123]

Really? I didnt know about that... are you sure that's true?

[Jb]

-Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon

There not weak, your player character is just strong.

-The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.

What? The only sprites that look anything suggestive could be the Swimmers sprite from Gen 2. Female Ace Trainers wear the same exact thing their male counterparts wear, except for the skirt. So females in skirts remind you of prostitutes?

-The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.

This is your problem. They look like normal battle girls.

-The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.

It also featured guys who hate other types of Pokemon. But I guess hating anything is stereotypical.

-Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."

Just as many guys say the same thing, like the guy with the Nidoking before the Lake of Rage, or the Pokefan trainers.

-The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.

Her leg is bent slightly of the ground.

-In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.

No they don't. In fact, if you look at a picture of all the trainer sprites, you'll see the females are a varied, more so than the men. Most aren't even blonde in fact.

[Fearless123]

-Cats like Purugly aren't strong
-You just proved my point by adding another example. There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models. Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits. Anyway going back to the Ace trainers, compare the girls outfit with the type of outfits that burlesque women where. The mini skirt and the tytes (the bold color even) are all very similiar.
-I don't have a problem with it I'm just saying that I get a real "gay vibe" from them, that's all. However it's more about what they say than how they look.
-Provide examples.
-Maybe so but not on the same level as the girl characters -and I don't think I've ever seen a boy character in the game with a pink pokemon like clefairy or the likes
-Her leg is pointing almost directly at the gamer so that when young couples appear thats the first thing we notice
-Perhaps but the pretty ones are always the blondes -the beauty queens and the girl in the young couples. There's no denying the fact that the society values blonde women over others and the pokemon games reflect this.

[Jb]

-Cats like Purugly aren't strong

What. Any Pokemon can be useful if used right. Not to mention, that none of the generic trainers in the game are hard to beat, regardless of what Pokemon they have. Also they they don't mostly mostly use cat Pokemon as shown here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...Trainer_class)

-You just proved my point by adding another example. There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models. Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits. Anyway going back to the Ace trainers, compare the girls outfit with the type of outfits that burlesque women where. The mini skirt and the tytes (the bold color even) are all very similiar.

There are few, if any that say anything like that. And female Ace trainers dress like burlesque women? That's not true at all.

-I don't have a problem with it I'm just saying that I get a real "gay vibe" from them, that's all. However it's more about what they say than how they look.

So you're stereotyping gay people based on how they sound and look?

-Provide examples.

Rival from GS doesn't like weak Pokemon. Lance really only likes Dragons. Magma grunts don't like water types. Plenty of trainers have shown dislike of Ghost-Types.

-Maybe so but not on the same level as the girl characters -and I don't think I've ever seen a boy character in the game with a pink pokemon like clefairy or the likes

You haven't played the game then. Pokefans males have used Skitty's, Dellcatty's, Snubulls and others. Same for male breeders, and such.

-Her leg is pointing almost directly at the gamer so that when young couples appear that's the first thing we notice

No, it's bent backwards as show here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...Trainer_class)

-Perhaps but the pretty ones are always the blondes -the beauty queens and the girl in the young couples. There's no denying the fact that the society values blonde women over others and the pokemon games reflect this.

Pretty is subjective. Pokemon games don't reflect this at all. Well, except calling the character Beauty I guess.

What I'm pretty much say is that using Pokemon to support the tropes of women in gaming isn't a great idea. The game is pretty varied and fair towards both genders.

[1rkhachatryan]

She has a one-sided view, for starters. From what I had saw, she implied that only females are affected negatively by this consequence. Some tropes would portray women incorrectly as a consequence, but there are other tropes that consequently portray men negatively as well. And there are some tropes that affect both genders in a bad way, albeit differently. For more details, go here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...DoubleStandard

It also seems to me that she thinks tropes are inflexible and rigid, in that, for example, the Distressed Damsel is not necessary female. Though it has a specific male counterpart.

The only example of this that I can think of is Kim Possible(Ron).

[Phlogiston]

are we seriously having this discussion

fine

-Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon

That's not because sexism, that's because Pokemon's difficulty curve is a fucking X-axis.

-The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.
-The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.

Okay, I'm just gonna level with you: I think the problem isn't that the game is sexist, it's you. Where the hell do you even get these, especially the second one? Also, the female Ace Trainer is standing sideways. Also, short skirts don't remind me of prostitutes' garb at all.

-The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.
-Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."

Primarily these are trainer classes that are young. Compare a lot of older characters who act differently, and matching male trainers, e.g. Youngster and Bug Catcher classes. Not every trainer acts like a stereotypically-conditioned eight-year-old.

Is there a problem here? I could take that. But it's not the one you're referring to.

-The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.

1. I find it incredibly creepy that you refer to the female character in this instance as "the femme" in the second half of your argument.
2. The pose you described happens at closest only in Ruby and Sapphire, where the character's leg is bent backwards because she's leaping forward. Again, I really think the problem is you and not the game.
3.

-In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.

As much as I dislike Elesa as a character and her design, she is a perfect counterexample.

-Cats like Purugly aren't strong

Okay, what is your metric of "not strong"? Because unless you're saying "not a legendary" or "not in Ubers" or some such, you're wrong. Those pokemon are all very usable ingame and can level teams if used properly.

-You just proved my point by adding another example. There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models. Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits. Anyway going back to the Ace trainers, compare the girls outfit with the type of outfits that burlesque women where. The mini skirt and the tytes (the bold color even) are all very similiar.

Oh for the love of Yawgmoth...

There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models.

"quite a few" ≠ all. Also, you're basing these characterizations off of having two lines.

Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits.

This is really the argument you're going with? "Group A engages in act B, therefore everyone who engages in act B is in or comparable to group A."

A lot of killers own guns. My dad owns a gun. Therefore, he must be a killer, right?

There's also the matter of all models being vapid and lacking in personality beyond enjoying the spotlight. I'm not gonna bust your balls on this one because I shouldn't have to, and if you honestly believe that, again, the problem is with you and not the game.

-I don't have a problem with it I'm just saying that I get a real "gay vibe" from them, that's all. However it's more about what they say than how they look.

This is, again, your fault. I don't see this at all. In fact, I'll take a poll here, right out in public: Do you, or anyone else you know, consider the Battle Girl trainers to be lesbians based on their appearance or dialogue?

Also, seriously, if you guess a character's sexuality when it isn't outright stated, you're stereotyping and are no better than the game you're trying to say is horridly sexist.

-Provide examples.

Already done for me, so I'm not gonna bother.

-Maybe so but not on the same level as the girl characters -and I don't think I've ever seen a boy character in the game with a pink pokemon like clefairy or the likes

Roughneck Kirby. Just for a starter. Seriously, if you actually believe this, you haven't played the games enough.

-Her leg is pointing almost directly at the gamer so that when young couples appear thats the first thing we notice

No it's not. Again, this is your problem and not the game's. You're the one who's sexually-obsessed and sees this imagery, then you have the gall to blame it on the game.

-Perhaps but the pretty ones are always the blondes -the beauty queens and the girl in the young couples.

Again, provably untrue, depending on standards of beauty.

The term is usually used for other animals like worms.

Well, the way some people act...

The only example of this that I can think of is Kim Possible(Ron).

You should go look at the link, then. There are way more examples.

[1rkhachatryan]

are we seriously having this discussion

fine



That's not because sexism, that's because Pokemon's difficulty curve is a fucking X-axis.





Okay, I'm just gonna level with you: I think the problem isn't that the game is sexist, it's you. Where the hell do you even get these, especially the second one? Also, the female Ace Trainer is standing sideways. Also, short skirts don't remind me of prostitutes' garb at all.



Primarily these are trainer classes that are young. Compare a lot of older characters who act differently, and matching male trainers, e.g. Youngster and Bug Catcher classes. Not every trainer acts like a stereotypically-conditioned eight-year-old.

Is there a problem here? I could take that. But it's not the one you're referring to.



1. I find it incredibly creepy that you refer to the female character in this instance as "the femme" in the second half of your argument.
2. The pose you described happens at closest only in Ruby and Sapphire, where the character's leg is bent backwards because she's leaping forward. Again, I really think the problem is you and not the game.
3.



As much as I dislike Elesa as a character and her design, she is a perfect counterexample.



Okay, what is your metric of "not strong"? Because unless you're saying "not a legendary" or "not in Ubers" or some such, you're wrong. Those pokemon are all very usable ingame and can level teams if used properly.



Oh for the love of Yawgmoth...



"quite a few" ≠ all. Also, you're basing these characterizations off of having two lines.



This is really the argument you're going with? "Group A engages in act B, therefore everyone who engages in act B is in or comparable to group A."

A lot of killers own guns. My dad owns a gun. Therefore, he must be a killer, right?

There's also the matter of all models being vapid and lacking in personality beyond enjoying the spotlight. I'm not gonna bust your balls on this one because I shouldn't have to, and if you honestly believe that, again, the problem is with you and not the game.



This is, again, your fault. I don't see this at all. In fact, I'll take a poll here, right out in public: Do you, or anyone else you know, consider the Battle Girl trainers to be lesbians based on their appearance or dialogue?

Also, seriously, if you guess a character's sexuality when it isn't outright stated, you're stereotyping and are no better than the game you're trying to say is horridly sexist.



Already done for me, so I'm not gonna bother.



Roughneck Kirby. Just for a starter. Seriously, if you actually believe this, you haven't played the games enough.



No it's not. Again, this is your problem and not the game's. You're the one who's sexually-obsessed and sees this imagery, then you have the gall to blame it on the game.



Again, provably untrue, depending on standards of beauty.



Well, the way some people act...



You should go look at the link, then. There are way more examples.

True, but double that at least and you have the female examples lol.

[Phlogiston]

True, but double that at least and you have the female examples lol.

Yeah, there's no question there; there's definitely a massive disparity.

[kochoupink]

I would argue that one of the reasons the Pokemon franchise has found such widespread success (it lags only behind Mario, which had a ten-year head start, as the best-selling video game franchise), is that it is inclusive of both genders. It's marketed to boys and girls, and played by both. If anything, it serves as a useful example to give the lie to the idea that "all gamers are teenage boys who want moar tits plz." Arguing about it is useless and derailing.

Similarly derailing is complaining about how "men are stereotyped, too." That's like complaining that a video about drug-resistant tuberculosis doesn't contain enough information about MRSA. If it bothers you, make your own study. Make sure to consider the sociocultural factors behind such male/female stereotype dichotomies. They are all rooted in the kyriarchy. If you want to talk about it, let's talk about why it is that "hypersexualized" men are portrayed as being buff and strong, which would aid in their heroics, while hypersexualized women have reduced muscles and disproportionate breast size, traits that would make it harder for them to compete physically, even in games where they have active roles.

There's this tendency to go on the defensive by producing a few counterexamples in which women are not objects. Yes, it's good these games exist. But that's like saying "McDonald's has a sandwich under 500 calories now so McDonald's food is totally healthy!" This series is not asking us to dredge up a few progressive video games. It's asking us to examine video games as a representative form of our culture, and a form which, as fantasy/fiction/art, could break down antiquated structures, but chooses to preserve and bolster them instead. No one is attacking video games. No one is saying that ONLY women are hurt by the patriarchy/kyriarchy. But the first step to broader social change is to admit we have a problem. The next step is deciding to fix it.