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Thread: Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    That's a little harsh lol, he's allowed to feel guilty. I did a little too after watching it.
    Why? What is there to feel guilty about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Want a list of strong females in video games.
    Samus aran (Metroids)
    Sarah Kerrigan (Star craft)
    Shepard (Mass effects)
    Jade (Beyond good and evil)
    Cortona (Halo)
    Joaana Dark (Perfect dark)
    Dark queen (Battle toads)
    Grundy (Banjo series)
    captain Syrup (Wario)
    Glados, shell (Portal)
    Just to name a few. If you guys still think that women need men to come to there defense the problem is with you not reality.
    outside or 3 or 4, quite possibly the worst list for 'there are great female-characters' i've ever seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Saudi Arabia is a patriarchal society. We (let's take it as the English-speaking West minus South Africa and Africa in general) are not.
    Oh! I love when nationalists and conservatives drag feminism into West vs. East dichotomies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    It's like saying we're a "racist" society. A "homophobic" society. Just because strands of said thing exist in a society does not make it a defining characteristic.
    But do you wish to turn a blind eye to situations in which those strands of sexism/racism/xenophobia/homophobia find themselves institutionalized in a position of power? These strands need not be one magnanimous unified institution of scheming patriarchy to exert their power, especially since they find themselves diversified throughout positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    That's a major problem with Sarkeesian's arguments. She simply assumes that her points will be taken on the basis that we live in a "patriarchy". A "patriarchy" which (AFAIK) she has never properly established or defined as the basis from which she makes her arguments. She simply takes it as a given and goes from there.
    In Sarkeesian's case, she views one of those strands as you describe as present within video games and starts her critique from there. Since it is a social construction, social criticism can expose and lead to a change of that social construction. I'll give you a hint: she's working from Butler.
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    There are a few feminists out there with such a extreme view in terms of wiping out men that it matches the Nazi's movement of seeing a lower class and or being utterly genocidal.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Want a list of strong females in video games.
    Samus aran (Metroids)
    Sarah Kerrigan (Star craft)
    Shepard (Mass effects)
    Jade (Beyond good and evil)
    Cortona (Halo)
    Joaana Dark (Perfect dark)
    Dark queen (Battle toads)
    Grundy (Banjo series)
    captain Syrup (Wario)
    Glados, shell (Portal)
    Just to name a few. If you guys still think that women need men to come to there defense the problem is with you not reality.
    Do you not see the problem with you having to actually create a comprehensive list of strong female characters? Thanks for proving that they're an anomaly!
    wh

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Why? What is there to feel guilty about?
    Liking what falls under feminist tropes (even if it does so just slightly). I watched her other videos too so it's not just the damsel in distress I feel guilty about. I just feel horrible after watching these videos and are reminded of them when I interact with the media.
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    Also I'm playing the world's saddest song on the world's tiniest violin for the dudes who "feel guilty". Privilege isn't about you and how you feel.
    wh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Feeling guilty isn't enough, especially if someone is going to feel guilty and continue to objectify people.
    I never said it was, however I don't objectify women(especially since I'm gay). And he never said that was all he was gonna do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Why? What is there to feel guilty about?
    The fact that for many years I've played these games without even thinking about that....
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    I never said it was, however I don't objectify women(especially since I'm gay). And he never said that was all he was gonna do.
    Gay men aren't exempt from objectifying women, just an fyi. Also, refer back to Deku_Link's post right above yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    So it is based on numbers and not characters. I will admit there are more boys than girls (The number is shrinking though) but for the most part boys played games more. Now it is nearly even and more female characters are being added.
    i totally see where you're coming from

    it's just like how racism is over now that we've had a black president
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Just because women have rights in this society doesn't mean it isn't patriarchal.
    Well for a large part it does. When you leave your house today, you can drive a car to wherever you want, go to any establishment, buy any beverage you want, walk round wearing whatever clothes you want etc. There is nothing your father or other male relative can do with legal and/or societal authority (if you are of an age) to prevent you doing any of that, as he could in a patriarchal society.

    If you want an abortion tomorrow, do you need a man to sign off in order to get one (that's a genuine question in all honesty)? Do you need a man's permission to leave the house? To show your face in public? Can you choose who you date and ****? Or does a man define that?

    The West must be the only place in the world where a society can allow its women to do so many things and yet still be defined as a patriarchy.

    Men still hold the vast majority of positions of power in American society.
    Most primary school teachers (which is a position I'd say of almost absolute power at times) are female. Does this mean that primary schools are a matriarchy?

    Hell, even when we do have a woman who even runs for a position of power, she's mocked for it because there's still this pervasive idea that women can't be successful leaders.
    All of society does this? All of the time?

    Tell me again how America doesn't fall into this definition.
    Disingenuous for two reasons.

    1. America is part of not the entirety of the argument.

    2. Looking through the definitions of "patriarchy" across the web, very few stretch its literal meaning (and tbf, from what I could work out, neither did this dictionary, seeing as it noted that the final definition had the caveat that this was "broadly" (yet another term with far too much openness to really define somethign) the meaning) to mean "where men have a disproportionately large share of the power". Not only because that definition in itself is flawed, because "share" in this example is an incredibly subjective word.

    I agree society still has patriarchal aspects, but our societies are not defined by their patriarchy.

    Oh! I love when nationalists and conservatives drag feminism into West vs. East dichotomies.
    We're not talking about feminism. We're talking about patriarchy.

    The Saudi Arabia point remains valid of course, because it's an example of an actual, pretty much definitive patriarchal society. Implying xenophobia doesn't make this any less so.

    I'm not a conservative (though for the record, it's not only "conservatives" who are fond of "East vs West dichotomies". First World Problems anyone?)

    But do you wish to turn a blind eye to situations in which those strands of sexism/racism/xenophobia/homophobia find themselves institutionalized in a position of power?
    No I just don't pretend they define society as a whole. Indeed, because of my belief in small government, I believe in actually directly combating said institutions by limiting their power, therefore preventing the ability of figures and strands (be they led by men or women) of holding any amount of overly excessive power.

    In Sarkeesian's case, she views one of those strands as you describe as present within video games and starts her critique from there. Since it is a social construction, social criticism can expose and lead to a change of that social construction. I'll give you a hint: she's working from Butler.
    She also starts her critique (as one can work out from her other videos and when I have time to find it, within the video itself) from the point that society is patriarchal without defining or showing it why it is as such.
    Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 19th March 2013 at 7:38 PM.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Gay men aren't exempt from objectifying women, just an fyi. Also, refer back to Deku_Link's post right above yours.
    I know that too. Also refer to my post where I talk about the media gaining some badass female leads. These types of games and shows tend to be my favs. I for one would love to see many more female main characters.

    Oh for the love of...

    So your saying that I can't feel bad for even realizing that I was blind towards this??
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  12. #162
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    You don't really have to feel guilty for just liking. It was designed for you to like it. You can like something while also criticizing its flaws and consequences.

    You also don't have to hate being male. You have power to do something. Speak, discuss, shame. As much as I hate to admit this, males are more likely to care about these issues if it's heard by another male sometimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  13. #163
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    ITT: being able to get an abortion without a man's permission is female privilege because patriarchy don't real

    Snorunt conservationist is the kind of guy who would look at american society under Jim Crow and say "how does that favour whites? black people were being PAID for their labour!"
    wh

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Most primary school teachers (which is a position I'd say of almost absolute power at times) are female. Does this mean that primary schools are a matriarchy?
    not really considering teachers answer to principals (who are usually male) who answer to superintendents (who are usually male) who answer to the board of directors at a school board (who are usually male)
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    also worth pointing out that society practically expects primary teachers to have no lives of their own and play surrogate to about 20+ children
    Beware children and heed Uncle Lutz, lest these devious feminists obliterate you:

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    There are a few feminists out there with such a extreme view in terms of wiping out men that it matches the Nazi's movement of seeing a lower class and or being utterly genocidal.

  16. #166
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    Most primary school teachers (which is a position I'd say of almost absolute power at times) are female.
    Yeah man, with their low salaries, high turnover rates, and being mostly ruled by male principals and board of education members.

    "where men have a disproportionately large share of the power"
    "share" in this example is an incredibly subjective word.
    Look at the percentages of most people in political power. Look at most managerial, CEO, and leader positions. Look at unequal pay for the same positions. Look at who society's media constantly markets to. Look at who society constantly tries to control the sex lives of. Look at who possesses the most wealth and land.

    There is hardly any subjectivity to address if you know the exact numbers of these.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Liking what falls under feminist tropes (even if it does so just slightly). I watched her other videos too so it's not just the damsel in distress I feel guilty about. I just feel horrible after watching these videos and are reminded of them when I interact with the media.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    The fact that for many years I've played these games without even thinking about that....
    These aren't quite reasons to feel guilty over playing these games. You're simply playing a video game, as long as you can separate reality from fiction, you should be fine. I'd like to hope you aren't buying these games because they objectify women, so stop beating yourselves up over it.

  18. #168
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    Tropes vs Women in Video Games - It's like saying we're a "racist" society. A "homophobic" society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Well for a large part it does. When you leave your house today, you can drive a car to wherever you want, go to any establishment, buy any beverage you want, walk round wearing whatever clothes you want etc. There is nothing your father or other male relative can do with legal and/or societal authority (if you are of an age) to prevent you doing any of that, as he could in a patriarchal society.

    If you want an abortion tomorrow, do you need a man to sign off in order to get one (that's a genuine question in all honesty)? Do you need a man's permission to leave the house? To show your face in public? Can you choose who you date and ****? Or does a man define that?

    The West must be the only place in the world where a society can allow its women to do so many things and yet still be defined as a patriarchy.
    Being legally allowed basic human rights =/= having power. Men still hold most of the highest positions of power, as I've said. Men still earn more than women doing the same job. Hell, I work in a female-dominated field and men are still more sought after and paid higher wages. And let us not forget that it was not so long ago that women in America didn't even have the right to vote which men were in power. Even 30 years or so after that right came about, they were still controlled and treated like the property of their husbands.

    Most primary school teachers (which is a position I'd say of almost absolute power at times) are female. Does this mean that primary schools are a matriarchy?
    Being underpaid, underfunded, and underappreciated? I wouldn't consider that power.



    All of society does this? All of the time?
    Enough of society that she isn't even afforded a fighting chance.



    Disingenuous for two reasons.

    1. America is part of not the entirety of the argument.

    2. Looking through the definitions of "patriarchy" across the web, very few stretch its literal meaning (and tbf, from what I could work out, neither did this dictionary, seeing as it noted that the final definition had the caveat that this was "broadly" (yet another term with far too much openness to really define somethign) the meaning) to mean "where men have a disproportionately large share of the power". Not only because that definition in itself is flawed, because "share" in this example is an incredibly subjective word.

    I agree society still has patriarchal aspects, but our societies are not defined by their patriarchy.
    Men still hold most positions of power. Women are still marginalized and treated lesser than men by the wider society. Legally, we may pretend that men and women are equal. Socially? Not the case by a long shot.

  20. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Why? What is there to feel guilty about?
    I agree. I mean I am a girl, but I happily admit to being attracted pretty girls in video games and in real life. That's why they make these games because people like them.
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  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    These aren't quite reasons to feel guilty over playing these games. You're simply playing a video game, as long as you can separate reality from fiction, you should be fine. I'd like to hope you aren't buying these games because they objectify women, so stop beating yourselves up over it.
    I don't think I am doing it by playing these games, however I would be blind not to see how these games do make women out to be the lessor.
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    You are contributing to bad things all the time without realizing them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    You are contributing to bad things all the time without realizing them.
    So?? Does this mean we should not grow and change??
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  24. #174
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    Feel guilty over a game won't help you "grow and change" unless you stop playing them all together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Feel guilty over a game won't help you "grow and change" unless you stop playing them all together.
    Oh let it go already -_-...I'm allowed to feel bad about how women are treated in video games.
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