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Thread: Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moogles View Post
    The issue boils down to the fact that it doesn't have to be a bad argument, but even that the argument itself shows male privilege because they can simply say "Oh they don't sell as much therefor women shouldn't be as represented" which is completely disrespectful. It's not about dismissing the argument simply because the person who said it has male privilege but understanding the way it's brought up reeks of entitlement.

    I'm not saying that, or at least I'm not trying to say that (I'm absolutely awful with words sometimes). But like I said earlier, I'm not trying to say the points are invalid because of privileged positions but rather that they showcase their privilege and they need to take that into account when they analyze and think of other people. I dunno.
    Oh, okay. I guess that's sort of different. I mean it's one thing to say "such and such data explain the differential presence of women vs. men protagonists" and rather another to say "such and such data justify the differential presence of women vs. men protagonists." I had assumed the argument was the former, the merely descriptive one. But in either case, the argument ought to be refuted rather than dismissed.


    (Also, I should point out what my prior post did not, namely that there could very well be some vestigial sexist cultural influence that works to create the initial difference in consumption of/interest in videogame entertainment by men and women, which would be an issue that precedes this level of conversation.)

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    I don't know about all this privileged stuff but what I do know is that tweet was stupid and shouldn't even be taken seriously.

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    Finally found the response you guys were talking about. Anita's original post on the X-box One's exclusives having no female protagonists didn't feel genuine at all. I applaud her due to the fact that she's clearly aware that everyone on the Internet (bar those who are well-known in reality) is an idiot (including you and I) and the posts just aid her argument even more. Good show, madame. However, after browsing trough multiple feminist sites, they pick on the little things making me reconsider the post as more legitimate.

    A tad off-topic and I know this article is from the last day of May but considering the material she covers, of everyone that could interview her no less...WHY!?
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    So do we have any news as to when the next video will come out??
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Finally found the response you guys were talking about. Anita's original post on the X-box One's exclusives having no female protagonists didn't feel genuine at all. I applaud her due to the fact that she's clearly aware that everyone on the Internet (bar those who are well-known in reality) is an idiot (including you and I) and the posts just aid her argument even more. Good show, madame. However, after browsing trough multiple feminist sites, they pick on the little things making me reconsider the post as more legitimate.

    A tad off-topic and I know this article is from the last day of May but considering the material she covers, of everyone that could interview her no less...WHY!?
    Lol the replies don't aid her argument, she had no argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    So do we have any news as to when the next video will come out??
    From what I've heard, December.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    From what I've heard, December.
    Not much of wait then at all. Be interesting to see what other games she covers in the next video.

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    Been following this since it all started...
    It's nonsense, really. She picks and chooses the cases that support her argument while outright ignoring the cases that don't. Some videogames do feature stereotypes that could be deemed offensive. Not just to women or men but to a whole multitude of different "groupings". Comes down to how willing you are to be offended.
    If she really wanted to crusade her cause then she should've started at the music industry. As it is, she cares more about making a splash as it'll help her sell a book a few years from now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DjangoCribbs View Post
    Been following this since it all started...
    It's nonsense, really. She picks and chooses the cases that support her argument while outright ignoring the cases that don't.
    So far, yes. But last I heard, this was to have more parts. Like Thirteen. She very well might get to them in due time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    So far, yes. But last I heard, this was to have more parts. Like Thirteen. She very well might get to them in due time.
    She might but I rather expect she's taking her time 'cos she's realised how weak and pointless an overall argument it is so she's working around every single example that leaves her argument dead in the dust.
    Personally, I think she's doing far more damage than good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    Not much of wait then at all. Be interesting to see what other games she covers in the next video.
    It's going to cover games where the damsel takes the role of the hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    So far, yes. But last I heard, this was to have more parts. Like Thirteen. She very well might get to them in due time.
    Ah, the power of money...

    Quote Originally Posted by DjangoCribbs View Post
    She might but I rather expect she's taking her time 'cos she's realised how weak and pointless an overall argument it is so she's working around every single example that leaves her argument dead in the dust.
    Personally, I think she's doing far more damage than good.
    Yeah, I am a fan of taking the bull by the horns strategy when you're dealing with a big issue. No less these videos are comparable to her previous videos with having similar structure and presentation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjangoCribbs View Post
    Been following this since it all started...
    It's nonsense, really. She picks and chooses the cases that support her argument while outright ignoring the cases that don't. Some videogames do feature stereotypes that could be deemed offensive. Not just to women or men but to a whole multitude of different "groupings". Comes down to how willing you are to be offended.
    If she really wanted to crusade her cause then she should've started at the music industry. As it is, she cares more about making a splash as it'll help her sell a book a few years from now.
    I disagree about this being non-sense. It's not just some video games that have stereotypes, but rather most if not all. The problem is that this is an extremely subtle topic. And like she said at the end of her video, it's not like the people making these video games are sitting in their offices twirling their mustaches thinking of how to next undermine women, they're just not conscious of the messages that the stories they tell are telling.

    We have to realize that all media is a product of the society in which it is made. In addition to that, it also an active contributor to society.

    Also these videos are meant to be educational tools, not a declaration of war. I actually know a teacher who used one of her videos in class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DjangoCribbs View Post
    Been following this since it all started...
    It's nonsense, really. She picks and chooses the cases that support her argument while outright ignoring the cases that don't. Some videogames do feature stereotypes that could be deemed offensive. Not just to women or men but to a whole multitude of different "groupings". Comes down to how willing you are to be offended.
    If she really wanted to crusade her cause then she should've started at the music industry. As it is, she cares more about making a splash as it'll help her sell a book a few years from now.
    I have to agree with you you pretty much just highlighted one of her biggest criticisms. Her nitpicking of games doesn't help her cause especially when she takes scenes from games out of context. I would say that the damage she has caused to her cause will take a few years to repair. She pretty much has alienated a large number of male gamers with her short sightness.

    One of my biggest criticisms of her's though is that she ignores all views that don't agree with her. I've seen an article that highlights this where on the fb feminist frequency page any criticism to her work no matter how small or how well thought out is removed and the user banned from the page it even show it happen to people who agree with her but highlight how she can improve her work. It seems Anita doesn't really want a debate but rather just have ago at the gaming industry and have people blindly agree to her.

    The one thing I noticed including on this forum is how her followers follow her relentlessly. They don't seem to like people disagreeing with her and if you do you will probably get told you "you don't understand" "male entitlement" or some other excuse that says because you are a man your opinion doesn't count.

    Anita's got people talking about the topic though whenever it is over the correct stuff is up to debate.

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    Saw the videos, thought they were terrible. Confirmation bias filled propaganda. Notice how she disables comments and ratings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nil Nuane View Post
    Saw the videos, thought they were terrible. Confirmation bias filled propaganda. Notice how she disables comments and ratings.
    Ugh...you do know she's constantly gotten rape and death threats? Also some of her videos were taken down (but eventually reuploaded) due to people constantly flagging them out of ignorance. There's nothing wrong with disallowing comments and it's not disallowing conversation other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    One of my biggest criticisms of her's though is that she ignores all views that don't agree with her. I've seen an article that highlights this where on the fb feminist frequency page any criticism to her work no matter how small or how well thought out is removed and the user banned from the page it even show it happen to people who agree with her but highlight how she can improve her work. It seems Anita doesn't really want a debate but rather just have ago at the gaming industry and have people blindly agree to her.

    The one thing I noticed including on this forum is how her followers follow her relentlessly. They don't seem to like people disagreeing with her and if you do you will probably get told you "you don't understand" "male entitlement" or some other excuse that says because you are a man your opinion doesn't count.
    interest spikes

    Got some evidence?
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    Go one the FB and make a well thought out post. Then you'll get your evidence.

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    To be fair, YouTube probably isn't the best place for a civilized conversation anyway.

    But my main criticism of the video is that it feels ridiculously close minded. She says she wants to stimulate discussion but she is so rigid on her stance that video games are anti women that she more likely promotes staunch adherence to preconceived notions.

    Her rigid stance is really what ticked off a lot of people in the first place. And sure some people overreacted but that's just the nature of a controversial video on the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Ugh...you do know she's constantly gotten rape and death threats? Also some of her videos were taken down (but eventually reuploaded) due to people constantly flagging them out of ignorance. There's nothing wrong with disallowing comments and it's not disallowing conversation other places.

    interest spikes

    Got some evidence?
    http://themalesofgames.blogspot.co.u...frequency.html

    There you go that article is pretty much about feminist frequency facebook page.

    Also in the article it has a link to a video that has some counter arguments to the damsel in distress videos I would recommend watching it because it does rise some good points. Here's a link to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek
    Last edited by Nightmareisalive; 1st July 2013 at 3:24 PM. Reason: add more content

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    So how much longer until Tropes vs Men in Video Games is released? MRAs would never scam anyone, right?
    wh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    http://themalesofgames.blogspot.co.u...frequency.html

    There you go that article is pretty much about feminist frequency facebook page.

    Also in the article it has a link to a video that has some counter arguments to the damsel in distress videos I would recommend watching it because it does rise some good points. Here's a link to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek
    I've seen that video and was less than convinced by it. The only point I agreed with was about the confirmation bias. And only a tiny little bit.

    She starts of talking about how anita thinks that we should gauge our characters by what is done to them. Which is actually not the whole story. We should gauge characters by what happens to then AND what they do. For the most part DiD's get captured and then wait for the hero to rescue them. Also she makes an argument about how anita thinks that these women re disempowered because they're made physically weak. But once again this isn't the whole story. The woman isn't strong enough to muscle her way out, smart enough think her way out, or charismatic enough to trick her way out. They are basically forced to wait to be rescued. How isn't that disempowering? Also why shouldn't we view them as victims, they are BY DEFINITION victims. She starts saying that we should value them for more than being a victim. For what should we value them? Let's use peach as an example.

    For being a kind, wise, and benevolent ruler? Yeah, except we're never really SHOWN that. It all happens offscreen.

    Oh wait, apparently the video's poster thinks that we should value her because other people think she's important. You know what else is valuable becase other people think it's important? Money, videogames, brand clothing, jewlery, ect.

    The next part of her argument is about how rescuing her isn't beneficial to the hero character... except anita said it was for the benefit of the character's story arc, NOT the character. It's not the same thing, the story arc is the narrative. For example, the hero getting the infinity+1 sword (to steal a term from tv tropes) is beneficial to the character, but NOT to his story arc. Also she puts so much emphasis on how important they are as rulers, but peach(and to a lesser extent zelda) are never shown ruling anything. They're important because we're told they are. The point is, she spends a while arguing agains a point anita never made.

    As to why the sports games spin-offs are excluded, it's easy: they have NO narrative. And regarding female characters being the heroes, do I even have to say this? It happens much, much more infrequently than the inverese.

    To finish, I have one last criticism. Paper Mario and the thousand year door. Why has noone brought this up? Sure peach is a DiD once again, but this time she makes friends with the computer (albeit because of her looks) and helps mario out with info and items. Sure she might be a DiD, but at least she does something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post

    There you go that article is pretty much about feminist frequency facebook page.

    Also in the article it has a link to a video that has some counter arguments to the damsel in distress videos I would recommend watching it because it does rise some good points. Here's a link to it
    I've seen that video and was less than convinced by it. The only point I agreed with was about the confirmation bias. And only a tiny little bit.

    She starts of talking about how anita thinks that we should gauge our characters by what is done to them. Which is actually not the whole story. We should gauge characters by what happens to then AND what they do. For the most part DiD's get captured and then wait for the hero to rescue them. Also she makes an argument about how anita thinks that these women re disempowered because they're made physically weak. But once again this isn't the whole story. The woman isn't strong enough to muscle her way out, smart enough think her way out, or charismatic enough to trick her way out. They are basically forced to wait to be rescued. How isn't that disempowering? Also why shouldn't we view them as victims, they are BY DEFINITION victims. She starts saying that we should value them for more than being a victim. For what should we value them? Let's use peach as an example.

    For being a kind, wise, and benevolent ruler? Yeah, except we're never really SHOWN that. It all happens offscreen.

    Oh wait, apparently the video's poster thinks that we should value her because other people think she's important. You know what else is valuable becase other people think it's important? Money, videogames, brand clothing, jewlery, ect.

    The next part of her argument is about how rescuing her isn't beneficial to the hero character... except anita said it was for the benefit of the character's story arc, NOT the character. It's not the same thing, the story arc is the narrative. For example, the hero getting the infinity+1 sword (to steal a term from tv tropes) is beneficial to the character, but NOT to his story arc. Also she puts so much emphasis on how important they are as rulers, but peach(and to a lesser extent zelda) are never shown ruling anything. They're important because we're told they are. The point is, she spends a while arguing agains a point anita never made.

    As to why the sports games spin-offs are excluded, it's easy: they have NO narrative. And regarding female characters being the heroes, do I even have to say this? It happens much, much more infrequently than the inverese.

    To finish, I have one last criticism. Paper Mario and the thousand year door. Why has noone brought this up? Sure peach is a DiD once again, but this time she makes friends with the computer (albeit because of her looks) and helps mario out with info and items. Sure she might be a DiD, but at least she does something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    http://themalesofgames.blogspot.co.u...frequency.html

    There you go that article is pretty much about feminist frequency facebook page.
    Thanks. Reading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    Also in the article it has a link to a video that has some counter arguments to the damsel in distress videos I would recommend watching it because it does rise some good points. Here's a link to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek
    Already saw that, Blazekickblaziken sums up my opinion on that video. The Anita's first video was more to establish ground than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deku_Link View Post
    So how much longer until Tropes vs Men in Video Games is released? MRAs would never scam anyone, right?
    Never going to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nil Nuane View Post
    To be fair, YouTube probably isn't the best place for a civilized conversation anyway.

    But my main criticism of the video is that it feels ridiculously close minded. She says she wants to stimulate discussion but she is so rigid on her stance that video games are anti women that she more likely promotes staunch adherence to preconceived notions.

    Her rigid stance is really what ticked off a lot of people in the first place. And sure some people overreacted but that's just the nature of a controversial video on the internet.
    The whole point of her criticism is Damsels in Distress and how it is a tired out trope that is used way to often. She is saying that the game creators using this same boring trope so much is what is anti woman(as it is primarily a woman used in this role). Her whole critique is that women can be used in Video games to do much more then being a trophy for the guys.

    I have to agree with her. I am all for a bad *** female in a video game who isn't victimized simply because the game makers are too lazy and uncreative to think of a different plot line. If cartoons are anything to go by, kids of all ages love a girl who can kick some butt(Kim Possible, Teen Titans, The Avengers). I mean female super heroes and villains wouldn't even exist if the whole world really believed that all women were inferior to man.

    That's her main problem with these videogames. She just wants women to get a proper storyline that doesn't make them look inferior to the men. Look at how many television shows star a female lead(or two). Are we really to believe that if a girl was the main character in a videogame, that people would say **** this I must play as a guy.

    If these shows are successful, why can't a videogame staring a female lead be??
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    The whole point of her criticism is Damsels in Distress and how it is a tired out trope that is used way to often. She is saying that the game creators using this same boring trope so much is what is anti woman(as it is primarily a woman used in this role). Her whole critique is that women can be used in Video games to do much more then being a trophy for the guys.

    I have to agree with her. I am all for a bad *** female in a video game who isn't victimized simply because the game makers are too lazy and uncreative to think of a different plot line. If cartoons are anything to go by, kids of all ages love a girl who can kick some butt(Kim Possible, Teen Titans, The Avengers). I mean female super heroes and villains wouldn't even exist if the whole world really believed that all women were inferior to man.

    That's her main problem with these videogames. She just wants women to get a proper storyline that doesn't make them look inferior to the men. Look at how many television shows star a female lead(or two). Are we really to believe that if a girl was the main character in a videogame, that people would say **** this I must play as a guy.

    If these shows are successful, why can't a videogame staring a female lead be??
    Well I agree the trope is boring when overused it was the fact she highlighted games where she takes a misunderstanding of its story line to try and get her point across. It doesn't help her case as fans of these games will see this and point it out so they won't take her argument seriously no matter how many good points she raises.

    I agree a game can have a kick *** female lead character one problem is though and I think it has been noted by some of her critics is that she herself seems to not have an idea what qualities she wants from a female lead character. The fact is if you watch some of her videos she criticizes female characters who rely to much on what people see as female qualities while at other times she has criticized female characters who lack these qualities and criticizes them for it. Bit of a lose/lose situation for a game developer when you're dealing with Anita.

    The main problem today is though game developers don't what to take risks with new games. It costs a lot of money to make a game and for it to flop could be bad for the company. So game developers will stick to things that they know will sale. The only way that can change is if a game comes along and helps change their views and makes a very large profit I'm sure if that happened there would be more lead females.

    Also to those talking about the video I see it more of a show the other side of the story for DID. I don't think you can right of a character just because you see them as a victim was what the general idea to the video was. The like of peach do have important roles in game world even if they are not seen (and remember how many characters have there been who have role in the game/movie/book but you don't see doing it?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmareisalive View Post
    Well I agree the trope is boring when overused it was the fact she highlighted games where she takes a misunderstanding of its story line to try and get her point across. It doesn't help her case as fans of these games will see this and point it out so they won't take her argument seriously no matter how many good points she raises.

    I agree a game can have a kick *** female lead character one problem is though and I think it has been noted by some of her critics is that she herself seems to not have an idea what qualities she wants from a female lead character. The fact is if you watch some of her videos she criticizes female characters who rely to much on what people see as female qualities while at other times she has criticized female characters who lack these qualities and criticizes them for it. Bit of a lose/lose situation for a game developer when you're dealing with Anita.

    The main problem today is though game developers don't what to take risks with new games. It costs a lot of money to make a game and for it to flop could be bad for the company. So game developers will stick to things that they know will sale. The only way that can change is if a game comes along and helps change their views and makes a very large profit I'm sure if that happened there would be more lead females.

    Also to those talking about the video I see it more of a show the other side of the story for DID. I don't think you can right of a character just because you see them as a victim was what the general idea to the video was. The like of peach do have important roles in game world even if they are not seen (and remember how many characters have there been who have role in the game/movie/book but you don't see doing it?).
    But seeing as shows have female leads that get lots of views, wouldn't that suggest that people would be more receptive to a female lead in a game?? I would imagine most of the people watching these shows are kids to young adults. Hits like Pretty Little Liars, Scandal, Bones, and Body of Proof all show that people are receptive to a female lead in the media.

    I mean let's look at the Last of Us and Ellie. I mean I can't imagine anybody playing this game and not falling in love with her. Her attitude and her ability to kick butt when needed was a welcome fresh breath of air in videogames. I could of easily seen Ellie being the main character in that game with Joel being the secondary character. You even get to play as her for a little while so she can be seen as a main character. This game is being labeled as one of the best games of the PS3 so I would say this tells us that having a female lead would be welcomed.
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