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Thread: Video Tropes vs Women in Video Games

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by moot View Post
    any more sexist / pointlessly argumentative posts will be infracted
    tia
    Which posts were sexist? If you think that topic might become a huge debate, perhaps you should move it to the debate forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Really? I've heard it used on the National Geographic channel and it's in the Wii U's dictionary..
    The term is usually used for other animals like worms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    This is an easy one:

    Mario:

    -Princess Peach typical blonde, the femme and damsal in distress.

    Zelda series:

    -Zelda *always* needs to be rescued by Link. Her main role is to play the damsel in distress while Link is obviously the hero. At least she aids Link in some ways with her rescue.

    Pokemon series:

    -Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon
    -The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.
    -The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.
    -The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.
    -Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."
    -The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.
    -In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.
    Not to mention that in the first two generations, females had lower attack, but that's a completely different story.
    Last edited by Sadib; 11th March 2013 at 8:35 AM.
    We can all agree that the second generation was either Pokémon's Golden Age or its Silver Age.

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

  2. #52
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    Really? I didnt know about that... are you sure that's true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    -Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon
    There not weak, your player character is just strong.
    -The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.
    What? The only sprites that look anything suggestive could be the Swimmers sprite from Gen 2. Female Ace Trainers wear the same exact thing their male counterparts wear, except for the skirt. So females in skirts remind you of prostitutes?
    -The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.
    This is your problem. They look like normal battle girls.
    -The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.
    It also featured guys who hate other types of Pokemon. But I guess hating anything is stereotypical.
    -Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."
    Just as many guys say the same thing, like the guy with the Nidoking before the Lake of Rage, or the Pokefan trainers.
    -The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.
    Her leg is bent slightly of the ground.
    -In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.
    No they don't. In fact, if you look at a picture of all the trainer sprites, you'll see the females are a varied, more so than the men. Most aren't even blonde in fact.

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    -Cats like Purugly aren't strong
    -You just proved my point by adding another example. There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models. Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits. Anyway going back to the Ace trainers, compare the girls outfit with the type of outfits that burlesque women where. The mini skirt and the tytes (the bold color even) are all very similiar.
    -I don't have a problem with it I'm just saying that I get a real "gay vibe" from them, that's all. However it's more about what they say than how they look.
    -Provide examples.
    -Maybe so but not on the same level as the girl characters -and I don't think I've ever seen a boy character in the game with a pink pokemon like clefairy or the likes
    -Her leg is pointing almost directly at the gamer so that when young couples appear thats the first thing we notice
    -Perhaps but the pretty ones are always the blondes -the beauty queens and the girl in the young couples. There's no denying the fact that the society values blonde women over others and the pokemon games reflect this.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 11th March 2013 at 3:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    -Cats like Purugly aren't strong
    What. Any Pokemon can be useful if used right. Not to mention, that none of the generic trainers in the game are hard to beat, regardless of what Pokemon they have. Also they they don't mostly mostly use cat Pokemon as shown here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...Trainer_class)
    -You just proved my point by adding another example. There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models. Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits. Anyway going back to the Ace trainers, compare the girls outfit with the type of outfits that burlesque women where. The mini skirt and the tytes (the bold color even) are all very similiar.
    There are few, if any that say anything like that. And female Ace trainers dress like burlesque women? That's not true at all.
    -I don't have a problem with it I'm just saying that I get a real "gay vibe" from them, that's all. However it's more about what they say than how they look.
    So you're stereotyping gay people based on how they sound and look?
    -Provide examples.
    Rival from GS doesn't like weak Pokemon. Lance really only likes Dragons. Magma grunts don't like water types. Plenty of trainers have shown dislike of Ghost-Types.
    -Maybe so but not on the same level as the girl characters -and I don't think I've ever seen a boy character in the game with a pink pokemon like clefairy or the likes
    You haven't played the game then. Pokefans males have used Skitty's, Dellcatty's, Snubulls and others. Same for male breeders, and such.
    -Her leg is pointing almost directly at the gamer so that when young couples appear that's the first thing we notice
    No, it's bent backwards as show here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...Trainer_class)
    -Perhaps but the pretty ones are always the blondes -the beauty queens and the girl in the young couples. There's no denying the fact that the society values blonde women over others and the pokemon games reflect this.
    Pretty is subjective. Pokemon games don't reflect this at all. Well, except calling the character Beauty I guess.

    What I'm pretty much say is that using Pokemon to support the tropes of women in gaming isn't a great idea. The game is pretty varied and fair towards both genders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pikadon92 View Post
    She has a one-sided view, for starters. From what I had saw, she implied that only females are affected negatively by this consequence. Some tropes would portray women incorrectly as a consequence, but there are other tropes that consequently portray men negatively as well. And there are some tropes that affect both genders in a bad way, albeit differently. For more details, go here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...DoubleStandard

    It also seems to me that she thinks tropes are inflexible and rigid, in that, for example, the Distressed Damsel is not necessary female. Though it has a specific male counterpart.
    The only example of this that I can think of is Kim Possible(Ron).
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    are we seriously having this discussion

    fine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    -Beauty queens typical blondes who usually have weak pokemon
    That's not because sexism, that's because Pokemon's difficulty curve is a fucking X-axis.

    -The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.
    -The battle girl teams often remind me of butch and femme lesbians for some reason. I think the more butch ones tend to say things like "I failed to protect so and so" or something like that.


    Okay, I'm just gonna level with you: I think the problem isn't that the game is sexist, it's you. Where the hell do you even get these, especially the second one? Also, the female Ace Trainer is standing sideways. Also, short skirts don't remind me of prostitutes' garb at all.

    -The earlier games often featured girls who hated bugs, which is very stereotypical.
    -Almost all of the girls prefer to use cute, pink pokemon and say things like "I may have lost but my pokemon is still cute" and "my pokemon is cute and strong."
    Primarily these are trainer classes that are young. Compare a lot of older characters who act differently, and matching male trainers, e.g. Youngster and Bug Catcher classes. Not every trainer acts like a stereotypically-conditioned eight-year-old.

    Is there a problem here? I could take that. But it's not the one you're referring to.

    -The fact that the "young couples" in the game are always a plain looking guy with a pretty blonde, altra femme and when they are shown the femme always has one of her legs thrown into the air for all to see.
    1. I find it incredibly creepy that you refer to the female character in this instance as "the femme" in the second half of your argument.
    2. The pose you described happens at closest only in Ruby and Sapphire, where the character's leg is bent backwards because she's leaping forward. Again, I really think the problem is you and not the game.
    3.

    -In general the pokemon games tend to focus on blonde stereotypical versions of women.
    As much as I dislike Elesa as a character and her design, she is a perfect counterexample.

    -Cats like Purugly aren't strong
    Okay, what is your metric of "not strong"? Because unless you're saying "not a legendary" or "not in Ubers" or some such, you're wrong. Those pokemon are all very usable ingame and can level teams if used properly.

    -You just proved my point by adding another example. There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models. Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits. Anyway going back to the Ace trainers, compare the girls outfit with the type of outfits that burlesque women where. The mini skirt and the tytes (the bold color even) are all very similiar.
    Oh for the love of Yawgmoth...

    There's quite a few female swimmers that make remarks like "all the boys like me," blah, blah, blah and are naive and superficial like typical models.
    "quite a few" ≠ all. Also, you're basing these characterizations off of having two lines.

    Heck, models often parade about in swim outfits.
    This is really the argument you're going with? "Group A engages in act B, therefore everyone who engages in act B is in or comparable to group A."

    A lot of killers own guns. My dad owns a gun. Therefore, he must be a killer, right?

    There's also the matter of all models being vapid and lacking in personality beyond enjoying the spotlight. I'm not gonna bust your balls on this one because I shouldn't have to, and if you honestly believe that, again, the problem is with you and not the game.

    -I don't have a problem with it I'm just saying that I get a real "gay vibe" from them, that's all. However it's more about what they say than how they look.
    This is, again, your fault. I don't see this at all. In fact, I'll take a poll here, right out in public: Do you, or anyone else you know, consider the Battle Girl trainers to be lesbians based on their appearance or dialogue?

    Also, seriously, if you guess a character's sexuality when it isn't outright stated, you're stereotyping and are no better than the game you're trying to say is horridly sexist.

    -Provide examples.
    Already done for me, so I'm not gonna bother.

    -Maybe so but not on the same level as the girl characters -and I don't think I've ever seen a boy character in the game with a pink pokemon like clefairy or the likes
    Roughneck Kirby. Just for a starter. Seriously, if you actually believe this, you haven't played the games enough.

    -Her leg is pointing almost directly at the gamer so that when young couples appear thats the first thing we notice
    No it's not. Again, this is your problem and not the game's. You're the one who's sexually-obsessed and sees this imagery, then you have the gall to blame it on the game.

    -Perhaps but the pretty ones are always the blondes -the beauty queens and the girl in the young couples.
    Again, provably untrue, depending on standards of beauty.

    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    The term is usually used for other animals like worms.
    Well, the way some people act...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    The only example of this that I can think of is Kim Possible(Ron).
    You should go look at the link, then. There are way more examples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    are we seriously having this discussion

    fine



    That's not because sexism, that's because Pokemon's difficulty curve is a fucking X-axis.





    Okay, I'm just gonna level with you: I think the problem isn't that the game is sexist, it's you. Where the hell do you even get these, especially the second one? Also, the female Ace Trainer is standing sideways. Also, short skirts don't remind me of prostitutes' garb at all.



    Primarily these are trainer classes that are young. Compare a lot of older characters who act differently, and matching male trainers, e.g. Youngster and Bug Catcher classes. Not every trainer acts like a stereotypically-conditioned eight-year-old.

    Is there a problem here? I could take that. But it's not the one you're referring to.



    1. I find it incredibly creepy that you refer to the female character in this instance as "the femme" in the second half of your argument.
    2. The pose you described happens at closest only in Ruby and Sapphire, where the character's leg is bent backwards because she's leaping forward. Again, I really think the problem is you and not the game.
    3.



    As much as I dislike Elesa as a character and her design, she is a perfect counterexample.



    Okay, what is your metric of "not strong"? Because unless you're saying "not a legendary" or "not in Ubers" or some such, you're wrong. Those pokemon are all very usable ingame and can level teams if used properly.



    Oh for the love of Yawgmoth...



    "quite a few" ≠ all. Also, you're basing these characterizations off of having two lines.



    This is really the argument you're going with? "Group A engages in act B, therefore everyone who engages in act B is in or comparable to group A."

    A lot of killers own guns. My dad owns a gun. Therefore, he must be a killer, right?

    There's also the matter of all models being vapid and lacking in personality beyond enjoying the spotlight. I'm not gonna bust your balls on this one because I shouldn't have to, and if you honestly believe that, again, the problem is with you and not the game.



    This is, again, your fault. I don't see this at all. In fact, I'll take a poll here, right out in public: Do you, or anyone else you know, consider the Battle Girl trainers to be lesbians based on their appearance or dialogue?

    Also, seriously, if you guess a character's sexuality when it isn't outright stated, you're stereotyping and are no better than the game you're trying to say is horridly sexist.



    Already done for me, so I'm not gonna bother.



    Roughneck Kirby. Just for a starter. Seriously, if you actually believe this, you haven't played the games enough.



    No it's not. Again, this is your problem and not the game's. You're the one who's sexually-obsessed and sees this imagery, then you have the gall to blame it on the game.



    Again, provably untrue, depending on standards of beauty.



    Well, the way some people act...



    You should go look at the link, then. There are way more examples.
    True, but double that at least and you have the female examples lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rkhachatryan View Post
    True, but double that at least and you have the female examples lol.
    Yeah, there's no question there; there's definitely a massive disparity.
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    I would argue that one of the reasons the Pokemon franchise has found such widespread success (it lags only behind Mario, which had a ten-year head start, as the best-selling video game franchise), is that it is inclusive of both genders. It's marketed to boys and girls, and played by both. If anything, it serves as a useful example to give the lie to the idea that "all gamers are teenage boys who want moar tits plz." Arguing about it is useless and derailing.

    Similarly derailing is complaining about how "men are stereotyped, too." That's like complaining that a video about drug-resistant tuberculosis doesn't contain enough information about MRSA. If it bothers you, make your own study. Make sure to consider the sociocultural factors behind such male/female stereotype dichotomies. They are all rooted in the kyriarchy. If you want to talk about it, let's talk about why it is that "hypersexualized" men are portrayed as being buff and strong, which would aid in their heroics, while hypersexualized women have reduced muscles and disproportionate breast size, traits that would make it harder for them to compete physically, even in games where they have active roles.

    There's this tendency to go on the defensive by producing a few counterexamples in which women are not objects. Yes, it's good these games exist. But that's like saying "McDonald's has a sandwich under 500 calories now so McDonald's food is totally healthy!" This series is not asking us to dredge up a few progressive video games. It's asking us to examine video games as a representative form of our culture, and a form which, as fantasy/fiction/art, could break down antiquated structures, but chooses to preserve and bolster them instead. No one is attacking video games. No one is saying that ONLY women are hurt by the patriarchy/kyriarchy. But the first step to broader social change is to admit we have a problem. The next step is deciding to fix it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    Yeah, there's no question there; there's definitely a massive disparity.
    The problem I have about that poster is that the girl in the video never said that she was comparing male to female, she was focusing on the female aspect so she doesn't have to go into the male side. It's not one sided because she was never comparing two different things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    are we seriously having this discussion

    fine



    That's not because sexism, that's because Pokemon's difficulty curve is a fucking X-axis.





    Okay, I'm just gonna level with you: I think the problem isn't that the game is sexist, it's you. Where the hell do you even get these, especially the second one? Also, the female Ace Trainer is standing sideways. Also, short skirts don't remind me of prostitutes' garb at all.



    Primarily these are trainer classes that are young. Compare a lot of older characters who act differently, and matching male trainers, e.g. Youngster and Bug Catcher classes. Not every trainer acts like a stereotypically-conditioned eight-year-old.

    Is there a problem here? I could take that. But it's not the one you're referring to.



    1. I find it incredibly creepy that you refer to the female character in this instance as "the femme" in the second half of your argument.
    2. The pose you described happens at closest only in Ruby and Sapphire, where the character's leg is bent backwards because she's leaping forward. Again, I really think the problem is you and not the game.
    3.



    As much as I dislike Elesa as a character and her design, she is a perfect counterexample.



    Okay, what is your metric of "not strong"? Because unless you're saying "not a legendary" or "not in Ubers" or some such, you're wrong. Those pokemon are all very usable ingame and can level teams if used properly.



    Oh for the love of Yawgmoth...



    "quite a few" ≠ all. Also, you're basing these characterizations off of having two lines.



    This is really the argument you're going with? "Group A engages in act B, therefore everyone who engages in act B is in or comparable to group A."

    A lot of killers own guns. My dad owns a gun. Therefore, he must be a killer, right?

    There's also the matter of all models being vapid and lacking in personality beyond enjoying the spotlight. I'm not gonna bust your balls on this one because I shouldn't have to, and if you honestly believe that, again, the problem is with you and not the game.



    This is, again, your fault. I don't see this at all. In fact, I'll take a poll here, right out in public: Do you, or anyone else you know, consider the Battle Girl trainers to be lesbians based on their appearance or dialogue?

    Also, seriously, if you guess a character's sexuality when it isn't outright stated, you're stereotyping and are no better than the game you're trying to say is horridly sexist.



    Already done for me, so I'm not gonna bother.



    Roughneck Kirby. Just for a starter. Seriously, if you actually believe this, you haven't played the games enough.



    No it's not. Again, this is your problem and not the game's. You're the one who's sexually-obsessed and sees this imagery, then you have the gall to blame it on the game.



    Again, provably untrue, depending on standards of beauty.



    Well, the way some people act...



    You should go look at the link, then. There are way more examples.
    Where the heck does all of this come from? Isn't a woman allowed to have a point of view around here? Of course I would expect most of you to disagree with me on this, the fact is that the majority of serebii users are in fact male, so this stereotypical, sexist version of women obviously won't affect you as much. I'm not a highly sexual person, I'm not perverted as you would have everyone here believe, I'm just objecting to the sexualisation that is commonplace not just in video games but in society in general. Women have always endured way more sexism than men and being a woman (and a feminist in case you haven't noticed) I tend to notice this stuff. That said though, I'm aware that other games do have more sexism than pokemon, like games which feature women with huge breasts as the main protagonists. Women with big breasts are unfortunately a trope in itself, because whenever you see a powerful female society attempts to compensate for this by making her a sex object.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 11th March 2013 at 10:20 PM.

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    You're absolutely allowed to have an opinion. But when you use Pokemon as an example of a video game that portrays women negatively, it falls on deaf ears. Mainly because Pokemon doesn't do what what you claimed at all and was backed u with facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    You're absolutely allowed to have an opinion. But when you use Pokemon as an example of a video game that portrays women negatively, it falls on deaf ears. Mainly because Pokemon doesn't do what what you claimed at all and was backed u with facts.
    The examples of sexism in pokemon might be fairly mild compared to other games, but it's still there.

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    Do you think it's at the point where it should be changed, and how?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Do you think it's at the point where it should be changed, and how?
    That would be unrealistic but with future games it would be nice if they got rid of the beauty queens at least and made the female poses less sexually suggestive. There's enough sexualisation in the media without it being in games as well, expecially games which are aimed at children. Either that or add male models in the game, lol. Logging off now for the time being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    That would be unrealistic but with future games it would be nice if they got rid of the beauty queens at least and made the female poses less sexually suggestive. There's enough sexualisation in the media without it being in games as well, expecially games which are aimed at children. Either that or add male models in the game, lol. Logging off now for the time being.
    Um, why would they get rid of Beauty Queens? If anything, I think that including them makes a positive impression. The fact of the matter with Pokemon is that ALL of the character archetypes, both male and female, of all builds and personalities, are still participating in Pokemon battles in the game. It's basically saying that whether you're a traditionally feminine girl who likes dresses and make up, a physically active girl who likes martial arts, an scientist who focuses on intelligence, a nursery aide that likes taking care of children, or any other female archetype, it's okay for you to like Pokemon.

    Quite frankly, it seems like you're trying to force sexism onto Pokemon when it really isn't there, or is there in such small amounts that it's negligible. Most of the poses aren't actually sexually suggestive, and since you're the only one who seems to think so, it seems like you're really making a stretch here... Not to mention it almost seems like you're starting to cross the border into shaming.

    There are tons of examples of sexism in video games. Soul Calibur is a great example of that. Pokemon is a terrible example. Perhaps it's best if this discussion moves away from Pokemon, as the example has repeatedly been proven to be a poor one, especially when there are so many games that are actually logical examples of sexism. After all, the whole discussion is about Women in Video Games in general, not in Pokemon. The fact that this discussion is going nowhere suggests that it's hit a dead end; you're apparently not willing to concede that Pokemon is not a good example, and others are not willing to concede that it is. I think that's a sign that it's time to agree to disagree, and move on.
    I make no claim of being perfect or always right. Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

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    Eh, speaking as a female, Pokemon is one of the more harmless and equal games out there.

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    Hmmm she makes a very valid point. I cant think of a way to counterargue without seeming sexist xD but i bet there are some games they disprove her argument but not many though. None that i can think of at least.


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    Waaaiiit. Wait. Did I already address this? Really reasonably?

    Quote Originally Posted by kochoupink View Post
    I would argue that one of the reasons the Pokemon franchise has found such widespread success (it lags only behind Mario, which had a ten-year head start, as the best-selling video game franchise), is that it is inclusive of both genders. It's marketed to boys and girls, and played by both. If anything, it serves as a useful example to give the lie to the idea that "all gamers are teenage boys who want moar tits plz." Arguing about it is useless and derailing.

    Similarly derailing is complaining about how "men are stereotyped, too." That's like complaining that a video about drug-resistant tuberculosis doesn't contain enough information about MRSA. If it bothers you, make your own study. Make sure to consider the sociocultural factors behind such male/female stereotype dichotomies. They are all rooted in the kyriarchy. If you want to talk about it, let's talk about why it is that "hypersexualized" men are portrayed as being buff and strong, which would aid in their heroics, while hypersexualized women have reduced muscles and disproportionate breast size, traits that would make it harder for them to compete physically, even in games where they have active roles.

    There's this tendency to go on the defensive by producing a few counterexamples in which women are not objects. Yes, it's good these games exist. But that's like saying "McDonald's has a sandwich under 500 calories now so McDonald's food is totally healthy!" This series is not asking us to dredge up a few progressive video games. It's asking us to examine video games as a representative form of our culture, and a form which, as fantasy/fiction/art, could break down antiquated structures, but chooses to preserve and bolster them instead. No one is attacking video games. No one is saying that ONLY women are hurt by the patriarchy/kyriarchy. But the first step to broader social change is to admit we have a problem. The next step is deciding to fix it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kochoupink View Post
    There's this tendency to go on the defensive by producing a few counterexamples in which women are not objects. Yes, it's good these games exist. But that's like saying "McDonald's has a sandwich under 500 calories now so McDonald's food is totally healthy!" This series is not asking us to dredge up a few progressive video games. It's asking us to examine video games as a representative form of our culture, and a form which, as fantasy/fiction/art, could break down antiquated structures, but chooses to preserve and bolster them instead. No one is attacking video games. No one is saying that ONLY women are hurt by the patriarchy/kyriarchy. But the first step to broader social change is to admit we have a problem. The next step is deciding to fix it.
    Thank you for actually understanding the point of the video which so many people seemed to miss. This gives me hope


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    -The women tend to have sexually suggestive poses, like the Ace Trainers in BW which are presented with the female character bending down so that the gamer gets a good look at their bum. Meanwhile the male Ace Trainers are shown in a dominant standing positions. Additionally the outfits for women Ace Trainers are also highly sexual in nature, kinda reminds me of prostitutes.



    man what whores. how dare they wear that outfit they wear that is exactly like the male genotype of this character

    also if you're about to go on about how they have whips in Red/Blue the male ones do too
    Last edited by Cifala; 12th March 2013 at 3:51 AM.
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    What a lot of people are overlooking is that everything and anything to subject to criticism, and that's not a bad thing. Criticism has existed as long as books, theatre, art, movies, and and so on, and it's healthy to think critically about what we consume. I love reading, and I just finished a three year university program where we analyzed literature all day. Analyzing literature and finding flaws in it doesn't have to detract from my enjoyment of it. The same goes for movie critics, food critics, whatever.

    Really, the people who complain about video game critics sound like the twihards who moan every time anyone has anything critical to say about Twilight. If we as a community are as bad as twihards of all things (and twihards don't even send rape threats), then we have a problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Like Vern said, the Star Fox thing was complete bull ****. I don't know how it went but from every other story I've heard about Star Fox Adventures was conceived by Miyamoto mentioning that Krystal's partner resembled Fox a lot. That said, money is money so (to the demise of the fans of Star Fox 64) Rare slapped on the Star Fox team and made Krystal a side character giving her more tribal looking clothes. As for the damsel in distress, it's an easy cliche to work off of and you barely think about it in the midst of the game play (which matters the most). This is just the surface and though they are slightly sexist, they aren't sexist enough to make a fuss over.
    How is her point about Dinosaur Planet wrong? That is indeed how the game came to be. Her point wasn't that it was bad that Nintendo took over development; her point was that it was unfair to take the character who was previously the hero of the game and let you play as her for all of ten minutes, so you then spend the entire rest of the game as Fox trying to rescue her. It disempowers the only female character in the game. I love this game and have played it through many times, so trust me: there is no reason Krystal couldn't have been playable for more of it, as originally intended.

    Regarding her clothing, they could have made it tribal without making it sexual. Also, "but cliches are so easy to use instead of putting in any effort" isn't an excuse for lazy writing. It's not just about whether or not it affects you during gameplay - it's about creating original stories and interesting characters without having to fall back on tired and overused tropes that a lot of people are sick and tired of. The overused Peach kidnapping plot gets boring after awhile, even if it doesn't affect gameplay.

    Last, her point was that the damsel in distress isn't the only sexist trope in video games. Her point was that this trope, combined with all the other sexist tropes, makes it frustrating for a lot of gamers who want to see better representations of women.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kunaiman9u9 View Post
    I feel it's addressing an issue that frankly put, only people actually doing the research would care about. I don't mean to be insensitive but everything she says isn't news to anyone who plays on a daily basis.
    The fact that not everybody cares doesn't mean that this analysis shouldn't be done. Some people do care, and some people do want to see what she has to say and do want to figure out how we can use this information to change things in the video game industry.

    Also, that first line pretty much describes the world of academia. And academia is a pretty huge and well-respected world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    I can't really say for sure if the damsel in distress thing actually does encourage sexism to the extant that it actually makes a difference in sexism....but I do know for sure that too many people make girls out to be helpless. And it's not like only us males do it(and I'm not saying she accused it of it only being us either), as it seems a good handful of girls in real life are dependent on others as well.
    You kind of just displayed the sexism you just talked about. Yes, there are handfuls of people are are dependent - including but not limited to women. But these ideas that women as a gender are helpless, frail and vulnerable has been an idea for hundreds of years despite it not being true, and it's popped up in popular culture over and over, in movie after movie, in game after game. And the more an idea gets repeated, the more likely people are to believe it's true and propagate it (just look at how many Americans believe Obama is Muslim thanks to Fox News saying it over and over). So yes, when you keep hearing the message "X is Y" over and over, it does make a difference. All she's saying is that it's time to stop repeating the same messages and ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    My thoughts? They're games. They're not meant to be over-analyzed like this. Too many people getting offended by things not worth getting mad over. Is having the majority of women fall into tropes wrong? Many not, maybe so. Is it really worth trying to stop?
    Plenty of things get "over-analyzed," but as long as there is content, there will be people there to criticize it. Just because you don't think it's worth making a change, doesn't mean that's actually the case. If you really don't feel it's worth even talking about, then you shouldn't mind if people go ahead and improve it.


    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    To be honest, I don't think this is really exclusively a video game issue. Movies, TV shows, books, comics, and other forms of entertainment all utilize the Damsel in Distress (which I'll just shorten to DiD from here) trope, and have been long before Video Games have existed. It even says that in the video in question. So the point of this isn't "Omg Video games are evil sexist things". Is the trope overused? Definitely. However, I don't think it's quite as damning as they'd have us believe. Media of any sort can influence people, but it's only just that; influence. I believe that's what Jb was implying; just as not all people who play GTA will turn into violent killers, not all girls who play video games will be shoehorned into the traditionally "weak feminine" archetype. Media is just one influence, and it comes down to the individual to accept what they see, or reject it.
    The entire point is that these tropes aren't just in video games; we see them over and over in our lives, everywhere from movies to advertisements. It's repetitive and it's frustrating, especially when you want to see your gender being represented in a way that's realistic, original, and not insulting. It's not solely about worrying about how representations of certain groups will affect people's perceptions of those groups - it's also about those groups feeling that they are given a voice and represented fairly and realistically in media.


    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Some people are more susceptible to the media influences, and they're the ones most susceptible to the effects of stereotypes. Just as many, however, will play the games, and just reject what they see. Not every girl who plays a Mario game is going to suddenly turn around and think "I should be like Princess Peach because that's what this game is telling me".
    Except that, as she said,
    "A large percentage of the world's population still clings to the deeply sexist belief that women as a group still need to be sheltered, protected and taken care of by men," and it doesn't help when women are constantly portrayed as being weak and in need of saving by men to this day. It's not that every girl wants to emulate Peach, but when most kidnapping plots in any media involve helpless women who need to be freed by a man, you pummel people with the same message over and over about how women are weak and need men. It's just not true, and it's not a message you should be sending in this day and age.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    No, you're right. But in the same way people are influenced buy the media, or games for this topic, there are just as many who aren't. The average age gamers is around 30ish. It's safe to assume that people around this age already have their views on women, or any subject in general. I agree that games can influence people but getting rid of the damsel in distress isn't the way to go about it. She didn't even talk about the hundreds upon hundreds of games that portray the female in the same light as the light as the common male.
    This video was concentrating specifically on the damsel in distress trope, so she was solely talking about examples of damsels in distress, and was not going to address anything else in that video. Also, there still are plenty of young gamers who are still forming opinions on women, and between seeing female video game characters portrayed in these ways and hearing adult male gamers harass female players, you don't create an environment for a generation of gamers with particularly high views of or even much respect for women. Is there a correlation between poor representations of women in gaming and how gamers treat women? Possibly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cometk View Post
    besides that, if any feminist actually wanted gender equality, why would they call themselves a feminist? why not a name that refers to neither gender so that all people, regardless of sex, could participate, like "equalist" perhaps?
    Because feminism has been around for a long time and has made a name for itself by giving women power equal to that of men. We have feminism to thank for the progress of womens' rights, even though "feminism" has since turned into a dirty word because it's automatically associated with radical feminist theory. But I don't disagree that a new name isn't a bad idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by pikadon92 View Post
    She has a one-sided view, for starters. From what I had saw, she implied that only females are affected negatively by this consequence. Some tropes would portray women incorrectly as a consequence, but there are other tropes that consequently portray men negatively as well. And there are some tropes that affect both genders in a bad way, albeit differently. For more details, go here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...DoubleStandard

    It also seems to me that she thinks tropes are inflexible and rigid, in that, for example, the Distressed Damsel is not necessary female. Though it has a specific male counterpart.
    She isn't saying that only women are affected negatively by tropes. She is only focusing on tropes that affect females because that's what she's interested in and knowledgeable about. It wouldn't be fair to ask one person to look at how tropes affect the dozens of other groups - it's a huge amount of work, and that's not her specialty. If you want to see videos about how men or black people or gay people are affected by tropes, then you'll have to look elsewhere.



    I think a lot of people are missing an important point. As Sarkeesian stated, these games don't exist in a vacuum. They are part of the narratives we tell as a society, and it's ridiculous that in this day and age, these are the types of stories we tell. And to quote her directly,
    Quote Originally Posted by Anita Sarkeesian
    A large percentage of the world's population still clings to the deeply sexist belief that women as a group still need to be sheltered, protected and taken care of by men. The belief that women as somehow a weaker gender is a deeply ingrained socially constructed myth which is completely false, but the notion is reinforced and perpetuated when women are portrayed as frail, fragile and vulnerable creatures.
    ~Psychic
    Last edited by Psychic; 17th March 2013 at 9:24 PM.
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    Why does nudity always have to be sexual?
    We can all agree that the second generation was either Pokémon's Golden Age or its Silver Age.

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marioguy View Post
    Why does nudity always have to be sexual?
    Maybe it's the observers and not the work. Actually, that probably explains why a lot of nudity that is intended as sexual exists, at least in terms of our current society -- because people want to see that.
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