I said that some girls like to pretend they're helpless....but I know more then enough girls who don't.
And I never said it didn't make a difference, I just said I didn't know if it made a difference or not. I just seemed like such a little thing to me....the idea that it's a cumulative effect, the idea that it stacks up, does make sense to me.
Maybe the princess should be in another castle because she's beating the piss out of an evil dictator. Maybe she could not be emotion-powered. Baby steps, I guess. I kind of would like to see a scenario like that -- the hero thinks he has to go rescue the princess, but she's already rescued herself and kicked the villain's ***. It would probably be too anticlimactic and mold-breaking to be popular, though.
You know what female character was blatantly feminine but was still a badass mother****er who never got captured in any of the games she appeared in? Dixie Kong. She wasn't human, though, so she probably doesn't count.
Are we assuming, for that argument, that the newest Tomb Raider doesn't exist?
I mean, I assume that at all times, so there's that.
*facepalm* please don't tell me that all feminist are like that
Be polite, Be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
I also think it's okay to ask if a group of people are all similar solely due to one video as well.
*sigh* well I saw other videos that bash on her and the fact that I saw some of her videos and I saw that things that she said where at times lies, but I gotta say, when he said about a girl being a Main characther and kicking *ss and that it wouldn't sell at all, One word METROID!!!!!!!!
Be polite, Be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
There are always going to be videos that bash other videos that are based around "controversial" topics. It's nothing special.
The simple answer is that it has to do with how we treat the human body. Western culture (in large parts thanks to religion) has not normalized nudity - instead, we sexualize the human body and make viewing it taboo. Plus the thing you hide and call off-limits the most is often what fascinates people. Google the subject if it interests you and leave the topic for another time/place.
The fact that there is a cumulative effect is true regardless of what we might believe. When you have many different mediums and medias propagating the same message, the message starts to stick. There is the example of how all these outlets question Barack Obama's religion until a segment of the population believes he's actually Muslim. There's the fact that (primarily) women are constantly told that they're not skinny enough or tan enough or pretty enough, to the extent that a huge number of prepubescent girls have body image issues and many more teenagers suffer from eating disorders. There is undeniable cause-and-affect in what we say and how people react.
Yes, Dixie would still count because she's female. That said, just because she was never captured doesn't mean she's immune to other tropes. (I don't know much about the character so I can't say for certain, of course.) Keep in mind that there will be many more videos to come.
I'm amused that you didn't/couldn't respond to any of my points, so instead you linked to a video that misses half of Sarkeesian's points. I'm all for criticizing her video, but this was a poor attempt at best. Heck, let's counter his points:
Thunderf00t starts by ignoring half of Sarkeesian's video, and subsequently her points about the Mario and Zelda series. Good way to start an analysis.
0:45 - Thunderf00t takes Sarkeesian's quote out of context by implying that she called Double Dragon itself regressive. What she was actually saying was that the scene in every Double Dragon game where the woman gets punched in the stomach and dragged away (with her behind/underwear in full view) is what is regressive. He obviously ignores that she is talking specifically about the damsel in distress trope, nothing else. She might talk about this character outside of this trope in other videos, but in this one video she was not going to cover everything. I don't know why everyone keeps forgetting this, because the video even says Part 1 in the title.
2:05 - Thunderf00t claims that Sarkeesian is somehow saying that tropes only negatively affect women. She never says this. Her videos focus on women because she is knowledgeable about and interested in the subject. Anyone is free to discuss Tropes VS Men, Tropes VS Homosexuals, Tropes VS Black People, or whatever else.
3:00 - Thunderf00t talks about how her brief overview of the trope she is focusing doesn't describe the game well, missing the fact that she's focusing on the trope, not the game as a whole. He essentially says that the fact that the male characters care so much they're willing to save her somehow changes things. Sarkeesian's point was that it doesn't matter, especially because her kidnapping is about developing a male's character arc alone - he lost something he values, so he goes after it. Whether this something is a woman or a valuable item, the result is the same - the women isn't going to save herself, and thus she is no different than an object. Whether or not he goes after the object does not change the core of the trope, ie. women is kidnapped and can't get away herself.
5:00 - He continues missing the point so sorely it's sad. She's not saying "don't help people who've been captured" - she's saying "the portrayal of people who have been captured if often of a woman who needs saving by a man." We're talking about portrayal here.
9:00 - Pretty much just "look at me, I can make stupid arguments!" Weird complaint that men have to go through so much to save women. He forgets that her point is that men get to do things, but their female counterparts are relegated to just sitting around and waiting until the man shoes up, instead of doing something, like say attempting to free herself.
11:20 - Thunderf00t claims that in trying to make a profit, it's okay to have poor writing, make no effort to be original, and insult a good chunk of your potential market (because yes, girls buy games too).
12:00 - More stupid arguments. I'm so impressed.
12:45 - Thunderf00t tells a pop culture critic to make games for women. The same way Sarkeesian isn't knowledgeable about or interested in discussing how tropes affect men, the same applies for making games. There are already female indie game-making companies, and they're already ignored and insulted plenty. He also implies games with strong female characters won't make a profit - except that some do.
13:25 - Shames her for being a critic rather than a creator, as if that's a bad thing. Tell that to all the respected book, film, theatre and food critics who don't produce books/film/theatre/food.
16:00 - Thunderf00t talks about the biological differences between men and women. He does not explain why this means women shouldn't be treated equally to men. Should we not all be treated equally, no matter our age, race, gender, religions, nationality?
18:45 - Thunderf00t, like others, points out that Sarkeesian has disabled comments on her video. Because this clearly has nothing to do with her not wanting any more threats of rape and violence, which she's been receiving ever since she proposed the project months ago. It's not as if other venues of criticizing her aren't open - Thunderf00t himself is speaking in a video response.
I'm not against criticism, but if you're going to try, or refer to people who do try (especially after claiming that you don't care about the topic), then at least use arguments that refer to and refute her points.
To repeat, in case this has been unclear, this video is only the first of many. If you're wondering why she didn't discuss a certain character or game yet, it's probably because she will do so at a later point.
It's not that I couldn't respond. There just wasn't much room to do so.I'm amused that you didn't/couldn't respond to any of my points, so instead you linked to a video that misses half of Sarkeesian's points.
This here is true. Regardless of how I feel, people are going to criticize.Originally Posted by Psychic
I can't really find any statistics of the amount of people that are actually impressionalize by this specific trope, so I can't really argue against it at the moment. Also that I agree with Kochou in that saying how she doesn't talk about men or any other thing such thing would in fact be going off topic. Looking back, the video doesn't leave much arguing room due the narrow topic and claims that more videos will come later. I'll personally wait for the second, or third video, or a video that uses a wider, broader topic but I actually get into this.Originally Posted by Psychic
A lot of people with very narrow views, arguably. But maybe -- and not to get all David Cage here -- my views are just different. A lot of people just don't like things that break molds.
Here's the DK wiki on Dixie Kong. I don't really see her having expressed a whole lot of those tropes, honestly, but I may be missing something.Yes, Dixie would still count because she's female. That said, just because she was never captured doesn't mean she's immune to other tropes. (I don't know much about the character so I can't say for certain, of course.) Keep in mind that there will be many more videos to come.
Understandable that she wouldn't have looked at it yet. The new Tomb Raider just really... irritates me on many levels. As we probably know by now, Lara Croft was pretty cool in the old days. For this one, she gained Rape as Backstory and the excuse, if I recall correctly, was to make the player want to protect her.Sarkeesian will probably discuss these games in another video. Again, this was only the first of many.
If the rape backstory didn't offend me enough, that idea would. That a female character should be someone that a man wants to defend, or that a rape backstory should be necessary for a male gamer to want to keep their female protagonist safe. Because, as we all know, men just tend to walk Samus into acid all the time because she's a woman. If only she'd been raped!
Making matters worse, they kept it after the backlash (maybe softening it a little -- still basically the same) and they didn't even try to be apologetic. They just doubled down on it. This isn't even "borderline offensive" anymore. I sincerely thought that DmC, the reboot of Devil May Cry, was one of the most offensive modern games I'd seen, but good lord.
Actually, between that and Other M, it seems like there's this growing trend toward knocking formerly awesome heroines down a little. Remember that, prior to Other M entering the continuity, Samus had fended off space pirates at least three times (I haven't played Prime 3, and only have played a little of, and only remember a little of, Prime 2), defended the universe (in whole or part) from Metroids another two times beyond the instances of foiling the aforementioned space pirates, cut off the spread of a horrific parasitic life form at least once, defeated Phazon and Phazon-based beings three times, and survived countless deadly planets and space stations.
She also killed Ridley twice (not counting Meta Ridley, Omega Ridley, or Ridley-X) without any adverse reaction, then suddenly developed Victim Mode in Other M. Counting Meta Ridley and Omega Ridley (and the Prime saga as not being an alternate continuity), she had killed the giant space dragon five times prior to Other M in terms of timeline. Her reactions do a little more than stretch suspension of disbelief, to say the least. It seems like another one of those contrivances to induce the aforementioned "protective" reaction in male gamers.
tl;dr these things make me very angry on about five different levels, but I'm getting sidetracked.
*I use the term scientifically pretty loosely here; the reasoning behind it will more likely be pop-evopsych/sociobio pseudoscience
Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 18th March 2013 at 3:42 PM.
To add to some of the excellent points Psychic made:
In other words, Sarkeesian isn't complaining that video game men step up to help when video game women are kidnapped and helpless - she's complaining that video game women keep being kidnapped and helpless in the first place (and, in part, that the person who has to help them is so disproportionately often a man). The same writers who decide the guy is going to help can also decide not to have the girl be kidnapped at all, or to have her take a more active role in her escape, or to make the kidnapped person a man, or to make the savior a woman. Trying to twist it into "Why shouldn't the guys help?" is acting as if the actual girl-getting-kidnapped-and-the-only-one-who-can-save-her-is-a-man is completely out of the writers' control and the only part they can affect is whether the guy steps up to the task. If that really were the case, then yeah, they should generally have them help, but it obviously isn't.Originally Posted by Psychic
Additionally, while this kind of thing is brought up a lot in discussions of sexism by the anti-feminist side, it actually proves the feminist point. Sexism is a double-edged sword: the same attitude that fuels the Damsel in Distress trope, that women are passive, frail and helpless while men are active, strong and heroic, also leads to the idea that women are precious and men are disposable, that men should make disproportionate sacrifices for women, that women can't rape men, etc. etc. etc. Men are hurt by sexism too - but not because of some separate independent phenomenon of misandry, but by the exact same system that's hurting women. Fighting sexism benefits everyone at the same time. If the attitude that women are frail and need to be saved truly goes away, so does the expectation that men must lay down their lives for women in a way women don't need to for men. If the attitude that women are supposed to be motherly caretakers while men are the breadwinners goes away, so will the attitude that disproportionately gives custody of children to the mother in divorce cases. Feminists focus on the women's side of things because on balance women clearly have the short end of the stick in most regards, but when people point out that men are affected by gender discrimination too, I think, Yes, exactly! The fact this also hurts men is more reason we should try to change it, but anti-feminists keep bringing it up as if "Oh, this sucks for you? Well, it also sucks for us!" is somehow an argument for not trying to get rid of the sucky thing.Originally Posted by Psychic
Last edited by Dragonfree; 18th March 2013 at 5:19 PM.
Chapter 64: Hide and Seek
The story of an ordinary boy on an impossible quest in a world that isn't as black and white as he always thought it was.
(rough draft of the remaining chapters finished for NaNoWriMo; to be edited and posted)
(completed, plus silly extras)
A few scientists get drunk and start fiddling with gene splicing. Ten years later, they're taking care of eight half-Pokémon kids, each freakier than the next, while a religious fanatic plots to murder them all.
Lengthy fanfiction reviewing guide / A more condensed version
Read and I will be very happy for a large number of reasons.
No it isn't. Disputing the rights of people to create such projects and the choice of people to buy them is evading (or at least being overly dismissive of) the issue. You cannot take the commercial aspects of the media out of a discussion about the media, even when discussing artistic merit. I'm not arguing Sarkeesian is or isn't doing this for the record.Going "They just want to make a profit" in response to criticism is evading the issue
Nor was I saying such.not caring that your output is poor, unoriginal or insulting doesn't make it any less poor, unoriginal and insulting, nor does it mean critics such as Anita Sarkeesian shouldn't call it poor, unoriginal and insulting.
Last edited by Snorunt conservationist; 18th March 2013 at 5:51 PM.
You do know the biggest problem with the whole troopes women damsels thing is that it is (One) based on 1980-90 video games and ignores the newer games. Tomb raider, Kotor, Halo, pokemon, Metroid, ect all feature strong women characters. (Two) She has made herself into a damsel in destress. She made herself a item being passed between her protectors and those that think the video was bull. If she wanted to destroy the myth of damsels she would allow comments, but evidently there is some truth behind girls needing protectors. Disagree? Please explain.
Also maybe it's just me but if I had tons of rape threats thrown at me I wouldn't want to have commentary on my videos either. Just a thought.