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Thread: Iris and Cilan [spoil]ing discussion. (Unconfirmed, happening in Aug/Sept)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel~ View Post
    Pl-ease. The same goes for May & Dawn.



    THAT'S IRRELEVANT. No female will return if Misty doesn't either. So don't single her out like that.
    Why did you conveniently leave out the third part of his sentence. Because it makes your post redundant?(He didn't single out Misty, ahem)

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    The storyboard artist's comments were directed at Misty because WPM asked specifically about the possibility of her returning several times, not necessarily because the interviewee and the studio holds May (who was the only other past female main character at the time) or Dawn to a different standard; I'd imagine they were all obviously considered pretty expendable.

    Not that comments from an artist in 2008 are all that indicative of current situations, mind you. Earlier this year, people were skeptical concerning whether Misty would ever appear in the show again, yet that didn't stop the writers from giving her the first appearance (a speaking role, no less) she's had in the show in nearly eight years.
    Last edited by Xeice; 5th May 2013 at 5:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeice View Post
    The storyboard artist's comments were directed at Misty because WPM asked specifically about the possibility of her returning several times, not necessarily because the interviewee and the studio holds May (who was the only other past female main character at the time) or Dawn to a different standard; I'd imagine they were all obviously considered pretty expendable.

    Not that comments from an artist in 2008 are all that indicative of current situations, mind you. Earlier this year, people were skeptical concerning whether Misty would ever appear in the show again, yet that didn't stop the writers from giving her the first appearance (a speaking role, no less) she's had in the show in nearly eight years.

    The point of me saying what I said is noone knows if anyone will return to the show. There is minimum evidence to show Misty won't return we have no idea on May and Dawn so to say that Noone is returning like it is fact on a page based on conjecture is just bad. (Not singling you out Xeice. They know who they are.) Also misquoting my statements to yell out im wrong out of context is also funny, but wrong. Would I love to see certain characters back as a person who watch the show since the beginning....Yes I would love Dawn or May to come back or even an older Max but I have resigned to the fact they more than likely won't.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeice View Post
    The storyboard artist's comments were directed at Misty because WPM asked specifically about the possibility of her returning several times, not necessarily because the interviewee and the studio holds May (who was the only other past female main character at the time) or Dawn to a different standard; I'd imagine they were all obviously considered pretty expendable.

    Not that comments from an artist in 2008 are all that indicative of current situations, mind you. Earlier this year, people were skeptical concerning whether Misty would ever appear in the show again, yet that didn't stop the writers from giving her the first appearance (a speaking role, no less) she's had in the show in nearly eight years.
    A speaking roll of about two words, that were something she said before as part of a flashback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuoke View Post
    A speaking roll of about two words, that were something she said before as part of a flashback.
    I was wondering...how did she agree to dub for just two words? They don't even show her face when she speaks. How do they give paychecks for...two words? Her Wiki page suggests she doesn't have any other role other than Misty, few Kanto Pokemon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    I was wondering...how did she agree to dub for just two words? They don't even show her face when she speaks. How do they give paychecks for...two words? Her Wiki page suggests she doesn't have any other role other than Misty, few Kanto Pokemon.
    They actually weren't new recordings. Dogasu confirmed they used the same voice actor clips from the old episodes. So Kasumi and Takeshi's VA's didn't actually record anything new.

    It makes sense too, they're not going to go tracking down Damian's old voice actor for the 3 lines he said in a flashback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    Probably none.
    According to my knowledge majority is in favor of older character return and investing more in something you already have, rather than ditching it away just to start something with someone else leaving it unfinished as well.

    This is supposed to be about Iris and Cilan. Just because you think Misty's goal might be more achievable to you doesn't mean she should get more out of all the others. Especially when the main character doesn't get squat out of his. And Iris's is pretty achievable as well since she can hear dragons speak.
    Misty goal happens to be more flexible compared to Iris which i believe was what he implied to having enough variety and pokemon to choose from to create events spread over region through which we could see sequel with Misty being done, supporting it through episodes where she would grow. Following concept of specialized water based events like Whirl Cup was.
    Water races, tournaments, underwater battles(this concept was very little explored)etc are few out of several directions through which they could give Misty focus without people becoming bored, and since water is most common and versatile type out there provides wide assortment to choose from to create diverse team thanks to dual water types.

    Why do that when she was already a background character? If you're a Misty fan, I was expecting you to say something like "I would want her to be something more than background wallpaper yet again". And if she wanted to be a water pokemon master, doing something more than she was would be better than what you're implying.
    "Background wallpaper?" No, not really. Misty did several valuable things during her time on show.Such as helping to influence plot, had her own story and contributed to anime and Ash growth as trainer back than in many ways.

    Ill agree how she should have received more focus, but due to writers inexperience still learning along with formula back than mainly being centered around Ash journey growing with help of companions, insufficient amount of focus on her own story which ended underdeveloped can be excused.

    Wha? Ash wouldn't need help with that. He will have others plus his rivals for all of that. In fact when she was there she barely did it with him. Even though Ash had lots of water pokemon too.
    And instead of others someone like Misty could play part of such role as well, just like Dawn or Brock did with sparing matches against Ash pokemon, advices and tips how to improve certain technique.

    Flexibility of someone role and how practical it really is allowing to be infiltrated within current anime storyline, through which you could build on character dreams also play important factor in who would get priority in coming back to cast over others.

    And Misty story and dreams have more connections with Ash career than its case with others, fulfilling requirement that her plots easily intertwine with Ash's again drawing parallels with E4members , battle and training aspect etc from which both stories could benefit and go forward.

    Uh, newsflash, Ash will showcase water types like he always does. He had two in Unova which is a record. And I'm sure his future rival plus others on the cast will have them too. We really don't need mono type trainers anymore on the show using water only water pokemon. Plus, there was enough Oshawott and Piplup spam to last a lifetime.
    Except trainer which specialize in water types would better promote and represent water types, and appeal behind Misty niche to use one type was never so much in promotion but more in adding something fresh and different on table as opposite to usual career we followed with Ash.

    Way i look at it introducing well liked and popular character back could bear some fruits on table in that sense since writers would add more diversity to main cast by reintroducing to younger generations one type trainer who would stand out from the rest and if there is a wide specter of new water pokemon being introduced along with evos of previous ones(like Corsola,Lapras,Qwillfish etc)water trainer like could be very helpful in their promotion.

    Then what would be the point of Ash going to a new region if this will happen? He could just stay in Kanto for a few weeks instead of doing that. I rather new fresh characters.
    Depends for who, because i don't see much appeal in getting another new companion which will end up unfinished and halfway underdeveloped anyway going through another basic formula of someone starting from scratch, learning basics and starting to form his team just to end up kicked away never to be seen again.

    It would be refreshing for change to see characters we grew to like coming back with new life added to them through new outfits, change of style being updated, new pokemon, and new twists and plots to their storyline being taken in new/fresh directions , rather than going through another rehash of what we saw before.

    In my opinion anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    unless you know something different the only old main character never to return is Misty (one of main pokemon anime creators said so in an interview in '08 google it) although i doubt any FEMALE main character will return old characters have returned....
    That was only said by ex pokemon director(later storyboard artist)mr. Hidaka though, and no members of writing staff confirmed that.

    Nevertheless writers constantly change their decision and plans with time depending on current popularity of this show, games, but their motivation as well whether older companion would return or not.

    Few years ago none if us thought how writers would ever replace Brock, get rid of contests, bring back Giovanni and have TR became competent villains, have Charizard rejoin Ash team which didn't happened since Johto, return Clair for apparently something significant etc.

    As it can be noticed past patterns are constantly break, so its not impossible that at some point they decide to reuse for change popular previous companion as well with purpose of shaking things up and breaking current formula of "endless cycling and predictable outplay of things"to bring new angle for this anime and maintain people popularity with most people wanting continuation of stories from those they grew to like.

    As such just like May, Dawn, Brock etc i believe Misty could come in consideration as well going by iconic status, strong popularity she has with many wanting her back and undeniably untapped potential allowing to be done more with goals and story.

    p.s. Im in complete agreement with Naughtynun, because with cast rotation this show would not only create foundation for more engaging and cohesive story bringing dash of fresh air into current formula. But also spread its appeal and popularity toward wider group of people resulting in stronger following and more positive reception about current anime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuoke View Post
    A speaking roll of about two words, that were something she said before as part of a flashback.
    That's two more words than she's gotten since AG, don't try to downplay it because you feel that she didn't meet some sort of minimum word requirement to be considered a speaking role. I can think of several ways they could have set up those flashbacks without even showing Misty, much less having her speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeice View Post
    That's two more words than she's gotten since AG, don't try to downplay it because you feel that she didn't meet some sort of minimum word requirement to be considered a speaking role. I can think of several ways they could have set up those flashbacks without even showing Misty, much less having her speak.
    By that logic Damian got his first speaking role in 15 years but I don't see you making a big deal out of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    According to my knowledge majority is in favor of older character return and investing more in something you already have, rather than ditching it away just to start something with someone else leaving it unfinished as well.
    And there will and have been other characters that has been left unfinished as well. But I really wasn't trying to start another argument with you but I was just answering some of Naughtynun's questions since he/she thinks that certain old characters will just appear after all this time just because of whatever is being shown right now.

    Misty goal happens to be more flexible compared to Iris which i believe was what he implied to having enough variety and pokemon to choose from to create events spread over region through which we could see sequel with Misty being done, supporting it through episodes where she would grow. Following concept of specialized water based events like Whirl Cup was.
    Misty's goal isn't anymore less or more difficult than anyone else's on this show. She would still have to work years in order to get as strong as some of the other water trainers that are much stronger than her. And she already did water competitions and such before. There is no need for her to come back in order to do those things. She can still take time away from the gym in order to enter a few water tournaments by herself. She doesn't need to travel with Ash and his gang of hobbits in order to do those things. If other gym leaders can leave to do other things, than she can too.

    Ill agree how she should have received more focus, but due to writers inexperience still learning along with formula back than mainly being centered around Ash journey growing with help of companions, insufficient amount of focus on her own story which ended underdeveloped can be excused.
    Exactly. Ash's position to the writers haven't changed one bit. She would still be just as underdeveloped as much such as Cilan at times. So no need to drag her under the bus as well too. The writers aren't inexperienced anymore but their writing hasn't shown us that much with the way things are, so I don't think it will change how they will treat Misty since Dawn got jack out of coming to Unova too.

    And Misty story and dreams have more connections with Ash career than its case with others, fulfilling requirement that her plots easily intertwine with Ash's again drawing parallels with E4members , battle and training aspect etc from which both stories could benefit and go forward.
    I shouldn't respond to this but like I said, others can help Ash as well. But Ash doesn't really need anymore help in that regard. If Misty needs someone to help her, there are like Wallace and Prima more capable for her just like training with Claire might do some good with Iris. But like I said, I rather someone new to do that than with someone who already tried to do that but wasn't any good at it.

    Except trainer which specialize in water types would better promote and represent water types, and appeal behind Misty niche to use one type was never so much in promotion but more in adding something fresh and different on table as opposite to usual career we followed with Ash.
    We've seen Misty with mostly all water types plus a normal one she didn't use. Like I said, there are others capable of promoting old and new water pokemon.

    Depends for who, because i don't see much appeal in getting another new companion which will end up unfinished and halfway underdeveloped anyway going through another basic formula of someone starting from scratch, learning basics and starting to form his team just to end up kicked away never to be seen again.
    There are a couple of people wanting Ash to be replaced leaving him unfinished as well. Not to mention everyone else. Misty's goal won't be done by traveling with Ash being on this show no mater how many water competitions she enters until Ash is anywhere close to his. This is why I think it's best the writers keep new characters coming on to keep the show fresh so that kids can watch it, not so much you and your obsession with Misty's unfinished goal. I personally think Misty as a gym leader is good since she is one in the games.

    It would be refreshing for change to see characters we grew to like coming back with new life added to them through new outfits, change of style being updated, new pokemon, and new twists and plots to their storyline being taken in new/fresh directions , rather than going through another rehash of what we saw before.
    I personally don't care about new or old characters but by them being new characters would be fresh automatically without thinking about it. Plus, if an old character does come back, that itself is a rehash without even thinking about it, so what are you yet again talking about?

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    I think that Best Wishes is the worst saga since Johto (no,I don't exactly hate Johto), but the finale is the worse since the foundation of GameFreak by a large difference. The pacing of the second part of the series is horrendous. I aren't a fan of the Sinnoh gym gap but I prefer this to what happens between the Unova League and the start of Pokemon XY.

    What is happening with Iris and Cilan and the poster is this: I think that Iris and Cilan are the least popular characters of pokemon with the exception of Tracey and Max. I'm 95% sure that the DP trio is more popular than BW trio. (the characters included on it, not the chemistry)

    And this unpopularity on BW in general, is causing a drop in ratings: Take a comparative between early-2009 (for 3 years), early-2010 (for last year) and you'll see.
    DP 2010 (Jan-Apr): 4.1 6.3 5.7 6.3 6.9 6.8 7.7 6.1 6.5 5.8 6.7 6.7 6.4 6.4 5.2 7.0 4.3
    BW 2013 (Jan-Apr) 5.0 4.7 4.3 5.2 4.4 5.5 5.3 4.7 5.1 4.6 3.9 4.9 3.2 3.9 4.0 --
    Ole, many of those things are unknown to the fandom. I think that with those dates is more easier to have a opinion.

    This rating isn't only caused by the population of Japan. I think that of this drop a part is caused by the population, a considerable part by the reduction of TV Tokyo viewers (the anime that is dropping is specially the TV Tokyo ones) and the final part by the Pokemon series, in
    a proporcion 1/5, 1/2 and 1/3. (i'msearching where I find ratings, I finally know all the ratings of Episode N and I have to notice that other TV Tokyo show has less than 3 of rating like Naruto and een Inazuma (In other words, Pokemon isn't going to be cancelled soon).

    What is true is that the anime has problems,and if you look at adertising of the show recently since Season 2 you will notice that it isn't one of the best moments of the pokemon franchise.

    ==================

    As a result, many of the fans are discussing if it's possible for a main character to return to the show permanently. The answer is difficult but not impossible, specially now bu never is what we should expect from the writers.

    In other words, when any character is replaced they made the decision that this character will be out of the show forever (or for when the show laaaaaaaaaasts). However, here is that we have the issue that the writers trolled about a return of the main cast 1 year ago. Yes, I'm talking of that Dawn's cameo.
    And although for the fandom was a fail, for the franchise it was a success because the ratings were higher during the cameo/pseudo-return (the possible return hype ratings) than before/after it and also for the marketing companies that love to get Piplup's merchandise to the point that sometimes Piplup takes Axew spot in merch and that the former is the head in one set of merch in two months when the other don't lead the set even when they are Dragon-type featured.

    It's rather clear that IF a character return to the main cast for XY, it will be Dawn and not Misty or May. Ojo, IF Dawn return, Piplup returns and he will know (and we'll see with him) the XY starters on-screen and of course, that Pokemon Contest will return for the anime. Neither her old team and neither her old rivals.

    The question is, why the writers could want to take the risk of bringing an older character when the games has new characters? If it happens, is because the writers want to give attention to the anime. The return of a former character will only made when the writers had no option but doing it to attract the audience. And IF that happens, Dawn has all the reasons to come before anybody given the show and the merch (the writers don't care about older fans but of merch they care a lot). If it doesn't happen, exist the less likely option of bringing back Brock. After this, I don't see taking May or Misty back after so long.

    I see the writers bringing back characters fromthe DP series but not from older series than that.

    And remember, that if the writers don't want to have two new characters to evade risks there's the most natural option to bring back Cilan around XY Episode 4. Or even Iris, if they know that Dragon-types will be a big part on the XY games.

    I think that if the writers decide to bring a older characters (and the possibility is higher given the hints (hints ==/== facts)) Misty will be the last option for the writers to do because I find a return of Misty more "useless" than others. I think that many of you could be wrong in which characters has more than 0% possibilities of return (yes, a 5% is a lot here).

    I only know one thing about this:
    -If Misty is confirmed to have a cameo, I expect the thread being closed temporarily because spamming.
    -If any character leaves and returns, the thread where we can discuss their return could be closed in determinated times because spamming
    Last edited by Eievui-Nymphia; 6th May 2013 at 6:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fer92 View Post
    I think that Best Wishes is the worst saga than Johto, but the finale is the worse since the foundation of GameFreak by a large difference. The pacing of the second part of the series is horrendous. I aren't a fan of the Sinnoh gym gap but I prefer this to what happens between the Unova League and the start of Pokemon XY.

    What is happening with Iris and Cilan and the poster is this: I think that Iris and Cilan are the least popular characters of pokemon with the exception of Tracey and Max. I'm 95% sure that the DP trio is more popular than BW trio.

    And this unpopularity on BW in general, is causing a drop in ratings: Take a comparative between early-2009 (for 3 years), early-2010 (for last year) and you'll see.
    DP 2010 (Jan-Apr): 4.1 6.3 5.7 6.3 6.9 6.8 7.7 6.1 6.5 5.8 6.7 6.7 6.4 6.4 5.2 7.0 4.3
    BW 2013 (Jan-Apr) 5.0 4.7 4.3 5.2 4.4 5.5 5.3 4.7 5.1 4.6 3.9 4.9 3.2 3.9 4.0 --

    This rating isn't only caused by the population of Japan. I think that of this drop a part is caused by the population, a considerable part by the reduction of TV Tokyo viewers (the anime that is dropping is specially the TV Tokyo ones) and the final part by the Pokemon series, in
    a proporcion 1/5, 1/2 and 1/3. (i'msearching where I find ratings, I finally know all the ratings of Episode N and I have to notice that other TV Tokyo show has less than 3 of rating like Naruto and een Inazuma (In other words, Pokemon isn't going to be cancelled soon).

    What is true is that the anime has problems,and if you look at adertising of the show recently since Season 2 you will notice that it isn't one of the best moments of the pokemon franchise.

    ==================

    As a result, many of the fans are discussing if it's possible for a main character to return to the show permanently. The answer is difficult but not impossible, specially now.

    In other words, when any character is replaced they made the decision that this character will be out of the show forever (or for when the show laaaaaaaaaasts). However, here is that we have the issue that the writers trolled about a return of the main cast 1 year ago. Yes, I'm talking of that Dawn's cameo.
    And although for the fandom was a fail, for the franchise it was a success because the ratings were higher during the cameo/pseudo-return (the possible return hype ratings) than before/after it and also for the marketing companies that love to get Piplup's merchandise to the point that sometimes Piplup takes Axew spot in merch and that the former is the head in one set of merch in two months when the other don't lead the set even when they are Dragon-type featured.

    It's rather clear that IF a character return to the main cast for XY, it will be Dawn and not Misty or May. Ojo, IF Dawn return, Piplup returns and he will know (and we'll see with him) the XY starters on-screen and of course, that Pokemon Contest will return for the anime. Neither her old team and neither her old rivals.

    The question is, why the writers could want to take the risk of bringing an older character when the games has new characters? If it happens, is because the writers want to give attention to the anime. The return of a former character will only made when the writers had no option but doing it to attract the audience. And IF that happens, Dawn has all the reasons to come before anybody given the show and the merch (the writers don't care about older fans but of merch they care a lot). If it doesn't happen, exist the less likely option of bringing back Brock. After this, I don't see taking May or Misty back after so long.

    I see the writers bringing back characters fromthe DP series but not from older series than that.

    And remember, that if the writers don't want to have two new characters to evade risks there's the most natural option to bring back Cilan around XY Episode 4. Or even Iris, if they know that Dragon-types will be a big part on the XY games.

    I think that if the writers decide to bring a older characters (and the possibility is higher given the hints (hints ==/== facts)) Misty will be the last option for the writers to do because I find a return of Misty more "useless" than others. I think that many of you are wrong in which characters has more than 0% possibilities of return (yes, a 5% is a lot here)
    We all know how much you hate this reason but this isn't the thread to post your opinion on the saga.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    By that logic Damian got his first speaking role in 15 years but I don't see you making a big deal out of that.
    To be fair, it seems that nobody had even thought of such an apt comparison except for you, the only person in this thread who doesn't appear to be able to distinguish between a main character and a COTD that was shown for the sole reason of fully explaining Charmander's origins.
    Last edited by Xeice; 6th May 2013 at 4:43 AM.

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    What's all this about Damian being equally as important as a main character?

    Quote Originally Posted by fer92 View Post
    I'm 95% sure that the DP trio is more popular than BW trio.
    I agree with the rest of your essay, but this statement is something I'm not entirely sure is true. Just from what I've read on this forum, it seems like the BW cast is a lot more popular than the DP cast. I mean BW introduced Cilan and Iris and both have large fanbases. Meanwhile, DP had Brock and most fans had only negative things to say about him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    What's all this about Damian being equally as important as a main character?



    I agree with the rest of your essay, but this statement is something I'm not entirely sure is true. Just from what I've read on this forum, it seems like the BW cast is a lot more popular than the DP cast. I mean BW introduced Cilan and Iris and both have large fanbases. Meanwhile, DP had Brock and most fans had only negative things to say about him.
    I would say Brock is more popular than Cilan and Iris. Brock has been in since the beginning if he wasnt so popular the rage with his alleged mistreatment in DP wouldn't be as high. By the time DP came along Brock was an after thought the story was about Ash and Dawn as proved by all the development Piplup and Pikachu were merchandise darlings. Brock just didnt have a place but I wouldnt call him unpopular per se......just maybe a lil worn out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    I would say Brock is more popular than Cilan and Iris.
    Maybe OS Brock but not too sure if AG/DP Brock would be able to compete with Iris and Cilan in terms of popularity. Overall though, Brock is way more iconic and popular than Iris and Cilan but if we were looking at only AG/DP Brock, I don't think that Brock is nearly as popular as OS Brock. Same with how OS TRio is way more popular than AG/DP TRio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    Maybe OS Brock but not too sure if AG/DP Brock would be able to compete with Iris and Cilan in terms of popularity. Overall though, Brock is way more iconic and popular than Iris and Cilan but if we were looking at only AG/DP Brock, I don't think that Brock is nearly as popular as OS Brock. Same with how OS TRio is way more popular than AG/DP TRio.
    I can wholeheartedly accept that POV.


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    And to add, I always liked Brock in any saga he was in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    What's all this about Damian being equally as important as a main character?
    Close your mind and fill yourself with unbridled animosity towards redheads, you'll know it to be true.

    Seriously though, Damien is a one-off character that appeared only when he was called for, while the writers haphazardly peppered Misty throughout the flashbacks in a manner suggesting that they were striving to balance the maximum amount of time she and Brock could be present on-screen, while simultaneously not taking the focus away from Charizard. I believe I've read Cybercubed (or somebody, apologies if it wasn't you) argue that Misty was only showed because her appearance was necessary, which is a sentiment that I don't understand. The only scene I felt that they could not have left her out of, while still leaving the altered scene without her in the episode, was the one where the trio was sprinting with Charmander towards the Pokemon Center, which could have been left out entirely without much of an apparent effect. Every other reanimated scene could have been positioned or shortened in a way that didn't have to include her, while not taking the impact away from the presentation.

    They didn't need to show her or have her speak, yet they broke an eight-year absence and did anyways. They didn't need to draw any type of undue attention towards her in the ending theme, yet they had an entire team of Pokemon (five 'mons compared to everybody else's two or one, if Emolga/Pachirisu was truly an art error) representing Misty and Ash alone. Occurrences so inexplicable, that I feel compelled to see them as interconnectedly building up to a certain point currently undefined to the audience, rather than simply being abrupt, isolated references to a former cast member. Time will tell, and I'm trying to keep my expectations tempered until we at least get to Butterfree to see if Misty plays a part in that, but it's proving to be quite an arduous task. I'll try to leave it at that for now, as I'm frankly tired of speculating based on what little we know, and I'm not sure how on-topic I'm actually being to this thread lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    Just from what I've read on this forum, it seems like the BW cast is a lot more popular than the DP cast. I mean BW introduced Cilan and Iris and both have large fanbases. Meanwhile, DP had Brock and most fans had only negative things to say about him.
    I agree, it's necessary to note that popularity doesn't always translate between generations for a main character, as Brock would be held to a much higher esteem and more fondly remember by people who watched or have been watching since the original series than he would by somebody who started in AG or DP, after he had already begun his slow descent into obscurity. If we're judging the popularity of groups by the amount of unique group interaction they received during their course, which I suppose is as good of a metric as any, then I'd imagine Ash, Iris and Cilan will be more fondly remembered strictly concerning their character interaction than the past two groups currently are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeice View Post
    Close your mind and fill yourself with unbridled animosity towards redheads, you'll know it to be true.

    Seriously though, Damien is a one-off character that appeared only when he was called for, while the writers haphazardly peppered Misty throughout the flashbacks in a manner suggesting that they were striving to balance the maximum amount of time she and Brock could be present on-screen, while simultaneously not taking the focus away from Charizard. I believe I've read Cybercubed (or somebody, apologies if it wasn't you) argue that Misty was only showed because her appearance was necessary, which is a sentiment that I don't understand. The only scene I felt that they could not have left her out of, while still leaving the altered scene without her in the episode, was the one where the trio was sprinting with Charmander towards the Pokemon Center, which could have been left out entirely without much of an apparent effect. Every other reanimated scene could have been positioned or shortened in a way that didn't have to include her, while not taking the impact away from the presentation.

    They didn't need to show her or have her speak, yet they broke an eight-year absence and did anyways. They didn't need to draw any type of undue attention towards her in the ending theme, yet they had an entire team of Pokemon (five 'mons compared to everybody else's two or one, if Emolga/Pachirisu was truly an art error) representing Misty and Ash alone. Occurrences so inexplicable, that I feel compelled to see them as interconnectedly building up to a certain point currently undefined to the audience, rather than simply being abrupt, isolated references to a former cast member. Time will tell, and I'm trying to keep my expectations tempered until we at least get to Butterfree to see if Misty plays a part in that, but it's proving to be quite an arduous task. I'll try to leave it at that for now, as I'm frankly tired of speculating based on what little we know, and I'm not sure how on-topic I'm actually being to this thread lol.


    I agree, it's necessary to note that popularity doesn't always translate between generations for a main character, as Brock would be held to a much higher esteem and more fondly remember by people who watched or have been watching since the original series than he would by somebody who started in AG or DP, after he had already begun his slow descent into obscurity. If we're judging the popularity of groups by the amount of unique group interaction they received during their course, which I suppose is as good of a metric as any, then I'd imagine Ash, Iris and Cilan will be more fondly remembered strictly concerning their character interaction than the past two groups currently are.
    I disagree with your view. Misty could have been left out from the scenes...yes, but she was a part of the scenes. The writers could have avoided including her in the re-animation, but they didn't because she was there in the actual scene. Why would they remove her from the scene? The only reason and the only freaking reason Misty appeared in all those scenes was because she was there in the scenes. She was there when Charmander evolved. She was there when Nurse Joy was taking care of Charmander in the Pokemon Center. She was there when Damien came back for Charmander. The show broke her 8-year old absence because it was necessary. Because the writers don't want to make a big deal about her 8 year old absence, only the fans do. They just wanted to do a proper re-animation of the scene and that's what they did. This doesn't foreshadow anything. Even if Misty were to really return to the show, the Charizard flash back won't be any indication to it. It's a completely unrelated thing.

    I know Cybercubed's views can be biased and he seems to have sentiments for AG, but in this thread, and in this context, his analysis about Misty's appearance in the flashback was correct.

    Also, the Emolga/Pachirisu things in not an error for god's sake! The only reason Emolga was on Dawn's head was because if it had been on Iris's head it'd have blocked the remaining Pokemon (Dragonite) behind Iris. Of course one might ask why they have put Emolga instead of Pachirisu....well it was because Emolga is the now and Pachirisu isn't,

    Stop assuming everything the animators do is an error. I know they make mistakes, but this one is clearly isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    Why would they remove her from the scene?
    To not confuse the audience with a character they've never seen before? I'd imagine that's primarily why they don't reference old characters on the show often, it's simply too distracting from the actual plot and the current crop of characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    The only reason and the only freaking reason Misty appeared in all those scenes was because she was there in the scenes. She was there when Charmander evolved. She was there when Nurse Joy was taking care of Charmander in the Pokemon Center. She was there when Damien came back for Charmander.
    This has never stopped the writers from not including characters. Even in the same flashback, they showed what might have been Charizard's most intense battle without including any of the characters from AG by shortening it to the point that their existence in the segment (which was mainly support, about as important of a role as Misty and Brock played in their respective background moments) was unneeded, and then going further by not even reanimating the fight against Brendan. I'm not saying that was the reason that it was altered, but to say that they wouldn't work around characters that were present during each flashback when they did (and have done in other past recollections/flashbacks) within the same segment makes it demonstrably wrong, regardless of what their intent actually was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    Because the writers don't want to make a big deal about her 8 year old absence, only the fans do.
    I'm sure they know well how the fans react to the reappearances of characters, especially Misty to the older audience. Just knowing that lends to the fact that they probably would've made the flashback shorter if they truly didn't want to make a big deal out of it, as including her in any respect after not doing so for as long as they have is a pretty big damn deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    This doesn't foreshadow anything. Even if Misty were to really return to the show, the Charizard flash back won't be any indication to it. It's a completely unrelated thing.
    Lol, how can you even qualify this to the certainty you're attempting to? So if Misty does return for at least a cameo, there's absolutely no way they didn't include her in the flashbacks and the ending in an attempt to inoculate the newer audience with an older character? That's unbelievably presumptuous concerning things that aren't at all known yet, at least I'm postfacing my beliefs with "and yeah, I could be wrong because of limited information and such".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    Stop assuming everything the animators do is an error. I know they make mistakes, but this one is clearly isn't.
    It certainly isn't clear as it would create an irregularity by having a past main cast member with only one Pokemon compared to every other sans Tracey and Max primary cast member's two, but I'll err on the side of caution and cede that there's a great chance that it wasn't a mistake since the first reason you stated is logical. Still a striking difference between Ash, Misty and everybody else (including the remaining two characters that they're supposed to be promoting). Care to offer your take on the matter, or is this official confirmation that Misty and all of her Pokemon are in "the now"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeice View Post
    To not confuse the audience with a character they've never seen before? I'd imagine that's primarily why they don't reference old characters on the show often, it's simply too distracting from the actual plot and the current crop of characters.


    This has never stopped the writers from not including characters. Even in the same flashback, they showed what might have been Charizard's most intense battle without including any of the characters from AG by shortening it to the point that their existence in the segment (which was mainly support, about as important of a role as Misty and Brock played in their respective background moments) was unneeded, and then going further by not even reanimating the fight against Brendan. I'm not saying that was the reason that it was altered, but to say that they wouldn't work around characters that were present during each flashback when they did (and have done in other past recollections/flashbacks) within the same segment makes it demonstrably wrong, regardless of what their intent actually was.


    I'm sure they know well how the fans react to the reappearances of characters, especially Misty to the older audience. Just knowing that lends to the fact that they probably would've made the flashback shorter if they truly didn't want to make a big deal out of it, as including her in any respect after not doing so for as long as they have is a pretty big damn deal.


    Lol, how can you even qualify this to the certainty you're attempting to? So if Misty does return for at least a cameo, there's absolutely no way they didn't include her in the flashbacks and the ending in an attempt to inoculate the newer audience with an older character? That's unbelievably presumptuous concerning things that aren't at all known yet, at least I'm postfacing my beliefs with "and yeah, I could be wrong because of limited information and such".


    It certainly isn't clear as it would create an irregularity by having a past main cast member with only one Pokemon compared to every other sans Tracey and Max primary cast member's two, but I'll err on the side of caution and cede that there's a great chance that it wasn't a mistake since the first reason you stated is logical. Still a striking difference between Ash, Misty and everybody else (including the remaining two characters that they're supposed to be promoting). Care to offer your take on the matter, or is this official confirmation that Misty and all of her Pokemon are in "the now"?
    Not confusing the new audience isn't a big issue at all. There's a reason why Pokemon Smash airs in Japan on the tv, they review old episodes thus making them acquainted with the old characters. If the new audience are confused by the existence of Misty, the same should extend to Charizard too. Even if they don't know what Misty or Charizard are, once they see the flashback they'll realize the show has older characters. You don't remove old characters because they confuse people, you'll put them in so that the so-called new kids (I am not sure if these so called new fans even exist, but people in this forum claim so, duh) will watch the old episode. It's that simple.

    In the same flashback they did not bring the AG characters because they had '0' relation to what the writers were showing. They didn't show Misty or Brock when Charizard is beating Dragonair and Blastoise. That's because they are supposed to show the battle not the characters and they could avoid showing the other characters in that scenario. Now could they avoid Brock in the scene where Ash rescues Charmander, could they avoid Misty in the scene when Damien comes without making it awkward? NO. That's why they put Misty in. Did the flash back have any character development scene from AG? No. So they don't show the AG Cast. Had something important character development (other than a freaking battle of course) happened when May and Max are around, then they'd show them too.

    You need to understand this, Misty was in all of those scenes because she was in that scene. She's just like the furniture or the buildings around, but since she's an important character they simply couldn't edit her out. Misty took ZERO amount of time as the main focus in the flashback. The flashback couldn't be made any shorter by removing Misty from it. They didn't even show her lip movement when she spoke, how much shorter can they make it?They avoided Misty as much as they could. This might upset you, but it's the truth. (They avoided her because the flashback was about Charizard)

    You need to understand something. Including Misty in a scene where she existed is not a big damn deal, EXCLUDING Misty out of a scene where she originally was, is a bigger damn deal. That's why they didn't exclude her.

    Okay I am wrong in the foreshadowing quote part, but if Misty doesn't appear again, my point will be true. If she appears, then we won't have any clue.

    The animators were LAZY. They didn't re-design Misty because they are lazy. The same goes to Onix as a Steelix hasn't appeared recently.

    As for the ED, I never said the ED didn't foreshadow a future Misty appearance. I only said the flashback wasn't. Misty having the most number of Pokemon out could be an indiciation of something, but I will take it with a pinch of salt.
    Last edited by Alfred the Second; 6th May 2013 at 12:19 PM.

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    So are they leaving or not?
    (N to join in x and y)
    Hold on a minute
    You know when ALL the main characters from pokemon all hold hands at the end of the ending of best wishes da. (Apart from N?)
    Could this be a sign? (Please dont judge me c: )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    But I really wasn't trying to start another argument with you but I was just answering some of Naughtynun's questions since he/she thinks that certain old characters will just appear after all this time just because of whatever is being shown right now.
    I don't have any inducement to carry on with further discussion either, only addressing some points over which i have to respectively disagree and why i share same sentiment like member you replied to does regarding current pokemon formula and way its characters are utilized.

    Misty's goal isn't anymore less or more difficult than anyone else's on this show. She would still have to work years in order to get as strong as some of the other water trainers that are much stronger than her. And she already did water competitions and such before. There is no need for her to come back in order to do those things. She can still take time away from the gym in order to enter a few water tournaments by herself. She doesn't need to travel with Ash and his gang of hobbits in order to do those things. If other gym leaders can leave to do other things, than she can too.
    Point in here wasn't in difficulty of someone goal, but in how practical aim character strive for is and if it has enough bedstead and substance to create benchmarks, some sort of structured quest through which we can actively see someone improving forward. With limited type like dragons that wouldn't be possible to achieve, but with more diverse and versatile pokemon types like normal or water i believe some intriguing arc could be created through which character could be developed.

    For example i really liked pokeringer competitions which focused on flying type, or Whirl Cup which was water themed.

    Also while you can argue how older character could travel on their own and learn new things, one important benefit from joining Ash and co for certain period of time allows us to see character on screen again interacting and building friendship with others. It allows us to see him in action making further development, deal with new obstacles building on his story of fulfilling dreams.

    Something which can't be accomplished of screen defeating whole fun and chance to see those we grew to like in action updated.

    Exactly. Ash's position to the writers haven't changed one bit. She would still be just as underdeveloped as much such as Cilan at times. So no need to drag her under the bus as well too. The writers aren't inexperienced anymore but their writing hasn't shown us that much with the way things are, so I don't think it will change how they will treat Misty since Dawn got jack out of coming to Unova too.
    Difference between Ash and his traveling companions is that he is driving force of this show ad their representative being easier for new generations of kids to associate with someone who just starts out slowly building his way forward. Hence being reason why he develops slowly getting hammered down in strength .When it comes to his traveling companions like Misty as it has been showed they have luxury in developing them at faster pace since they are intended to be part of main cast for only certain period of time. Best example is Dawn which almost achieved her goal on screen while it took Ash more than 10 years to come top 4 in league.

    Speaking of Dawn reason why her appearance didn't hold more substance in BW is because dependability on contests made things all that harder. with there not being possible to progress story of coordinator much in region where such concept doesn't even exist. With Misty its less complicated to plan her return since there doesn't exist any limitations not depending on game quest, making easier for writers to fit her within current story and gain something out of it.

    Due to flexibility not depending on games being solely upon writers imagination in what they are going to create, and where it will take place.

    I shouldn't respond to this but like I said, others can help Ash as well. But Ash doesn't really need anymore help in that regard. If Misty needs someone to help her, there are like Wallace and Prima more capable for her just like training with Claire might do some good with Iris. But like I said, I rather someone new to do that than with someone who already tried to do that but wasn't any good at it.
    I believe you missed the point. Just like other novice characters get implemented within main protagonist story with there existing mutual help between themselves from which both could gain something and advance forward, same applies to Misty as well.

    Even more so considering her dream is anime exclusive not depending on game quests, or being limited to select few regions where such events exist along with having connections with Ash career with both striving toward title of becoming very best in their fields having connections with E4 members. Which would warrant exposure and guarantee that both characters receive focus and development on screen.

    We've seen Misty with mostly all water types plus a normal one she didn't use. Like I said, there are others capable of promoting old and new water pokemon.
    Jut because we have others who follow same profession doesn't mean how plausible and enjoyable story arc couldn't be created with another character, with trainer who specialize in one type(this case water) being better candidate for promotion and chance to extract full potential from such type than regular trainer could.

    Even more so if region is water rich and filed with new kind of specific type like Orange Islands was. Imo having sidekick which focus on one specie of pokemon could be refreshing and intriguing to see in cast again,and it would be give us something new for a change.

    There are a couple of people wanting Ash to be replaced leaving him unfinished as well. Not to mention everyone else. Misty's goal won't be done by traveling with Ash being on this show no mater how many water competitions she enters until Ash is anywhere close to his.
    Writers aren't concerned much if someone is going to accomplish something before Ash does. Otherwise Tracey wouldn't achieve his dream of working with prof. Oak, Dawn wouldn't almost won Grand Festival on first try being just one step behind from becoming top coordinator, doing bigger progress toward dreams in 4 years as opposite to Ash taking 15 years to only win league etc.

    We have to take in account how Ash traveling companions dreams are easier and less complex to achieve, not having same level of competence and difficulty like Ash does. Needless to say its not so much about destination, but more about journey making sense to do continuation of those who have potential to be done more have us see him/her getting more development and focus, learning more about character himself and past being showed doing steps forward coming closer to it.

    This is why I think it's best the writers keep new characters coming on to keep the show fresh so that kids can watch it, not so much you and your obsession with Misty's unfinished goal.
    Its not that, its more that i don't see any appeal in constantly adding new companions when there exist fresh potential and multiple variables through which already molded characters could be taken forming groundwork toward stable cast, anime filled with continuity and follow characters grow in more complex new ways.

    There is nothing new and refreshing in seeing same boring cycle after every 3 to 4 years which follows same basic principle: Using new character instead of putting more effort in already established companion going through same formulaic patter through which his predecessor was developed.
    We certainly don't need 20 or even 30 traveling companions traveling with Ash while treating other 28 like long time forgotten crap.
    When there exist already proven to be successful and well liked characters in whose stories they could invest more taking advantage of their popularity and providing fresh and unexpected twist to current formula.

    Even more so when anything new companion brings, older one can bring better whether its interaction between characters, pokemon, character development or influence they can leave on plot since they already have history and foundation on which they passed basic introduction point allowing to be taken on new levels developing them in deeper way.

    Mindset "out with old, in with new" only promotes laziness and lack of creativity from writer side encouraging them to never try something new. Since they don't have to create innovative, fresh directions through which pokemon series and its characters can remain enjoyable delivering us lower quality.

    That's not something i would call "fresh".

    I personally don't care about new or old characters but by them being new characters would be fresh automatically without thinking about it. Plus, if an old character does come back, that itself is a rehash without even thinking about it, so what are you yet again talking about?
    Except reuse of all time favorites could bring new fresh angle to this show being fresh for change to follow story of already somewhat developed character going on bigger things, and see in what new exciting directions writers can take them.

    With older friends we can see them evolve and grow as persons more, with interaction changing and going to different level developing new traits, skills and outlooks on things working toward their dreams by making more notable steps . Which would be more interesting and refreshing to see for a change, since with new characters there doesn't exist background, established relationships and groundwork to expand upon and inject more subtle changes to their story.

    Something various other anime do being in exchange more appealing and filled with higher quality compared to this show and approach currently used.

    But to each their own.

    EDIT:
    p.s. As far as speculation over previous companions chances for return go, i would think opposite of Dawn being first choice before anyone else. If anything i say Brock or Misty would have higher chances to return at that point.
    Unlike Dawn who is dependent on contests and tied to 4th generation as representative of DP series, with gym leaders its easier to transfer them to other regions even when they stop existing in games because they aren't main protagonist of certain generation of pokemon and their representatives being easier to justify their stay being more practical choices so to speak.

    They are also original and most iconic characters being there when everything started, with practice from others shows showing how original characters never end up forgotten sooner or latter getting recognition, being cornerstone on which everything was build and advertized in first place. Along with biggest demand being for their return guaranteeing higher intake of money and increase of viewers percentage.

    In addition i have to say i can understand Xeice point of view of Misty appearance in BW flashbacks being possible to annotate as some sort of foreshadowing toward return. Its not so much outrageous to presume when taken in account how said character got more references and speaking role than she ever did in DP with lure being most we got. Along with being on purpose showed as only previous companion in older clothes which can be assigned to fact how she is much more recognizable that way for new generations which only got familiar with her through older seasons being arguably way of preparing them for in person return.

    Of course its all just theory and could likely mean nothing, but still did gave some food for thought.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 6th May 2013 at 1:11 PM.

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    I love how everyone forgets that when Charizard returned at the end of Battle Frontier, they showed similar flashbacks to "Charmander, the Stray Pokemon" which again showed Misty/Brock. The only difference was since Brock was still a main character at the time it wasn't a big deal.

    Dawn also brought up Brock twice during her cameo, yet Brock still didn't physically show up at all. Flashbacks are just flashbacks, they don't imply anything else.

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