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Thread: Iris and Cilan [spoil]ing discussion. (Unconfirmed, happening in Aug/Sept)

  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    It wouldn't have been a problem if the writers had actually tried to make him interesting. They needed to reinvent his character after the flirtation gag got old, but they gave up and Brock's character became a caricature. If they had given him a feasible goal like most female companions had, then maybe his character wouldn't have seemed so stale. Granted, he stayed in the main cast for a long time, so he must have had a pretty decent sized fanbase, at least in Japan.
    If Dawn/May's goal was enough to take away screen time from Brock, how the hell would you expect another goal. It gets cumbersome to write after some time, and eventually lead to dislike. There's a reason people were overjoyed when Contests were gotten rid off. It's hard to write another consistent goal.

    Take a look at Cilan, what exactly is his goal, where exactly is his character development?

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    Brock didn't need an active goal, he just needed to further his current career.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    If Dawn/May's goal was enough to take away screen time from Brock, how the hell would you expect another goal. It gets cumbersome to write after some time, and eventually lead to dislike. There's a reason people were overjoyed when Contests were gotten rid off. It's hard to write another consistent goal.

    Take a look at Cilan, what exactly is his goal, where exactly is his character development?

    Moral of the story: The third wheel of the gang will always remain irrelevant and his only purpose will be cooking, explaining the effects of moves and abilities during battles.
    Am I the only person who loved contest? ): I think they did a good maintaining 2 storylines Ash and May/Dawn. They also did a fine job on brock in AG just not during DP in my opinion but hey they are human.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    Am I the only person who loved contest? ):
    No. I loved them also. Without them, I don't think AG and DP wouldn't be as popular as they are.

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    i have to ask. why are iris and cilan going all the way to kanto if they are going to leave and head back to unova? that may indicate that they will stay and/or (don't hold me to this) the new region is near kanto. it's possible, but really, would you travel hundreds of miles and then just go back as soon as you get there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy909 View Post
    i have to ask. why are iris and cilan going all the way to kanto if they are going to leave and head back to unova? that may indicate that they will stay and/or (don't hold me to this) the new region is near kanto. it's possible, but really, would you travel hundreds of miles and then just go back as soon as you get there?
    It might be possible that as they reach Kanto both Iris and Cilan are forced to leave. Iris could go either with Claire or return to Opelucid to train in order to become a gym leader and Cilan might receive a call from his brothers that he's needed at the gym for some reason. It's also possible that Iris and Cilan spend a couple of episodes in Kanto region which is when Ash finds out about X/Y region and then they depart. And then Iris and Cilan return to Unova for their respective duties.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy909 View Post
    i have to ask. why are iris and cilan going all the way to kanto if they are going to leave and head back to unova? that may indicate that they will stay and/or (don't hold me to this) the new region is near kanto. it's possible, but really, would you travel hundreds of miles and then just go back as soon as you get there?
    The REAL question:

    At first it was said Isshu could only be reached by plane. So how convenient is it the gap between Isshu and Kanto is now breachable by boat.

    Guess they're on some type of high speed boat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durian Seed View Post
    The REAL question:

    At first it was said Isshu could only be reached by plane. So how convenient is it the gap between Isshu and Kanto is now breachable by boat.

    Guess they're on some type of high speed boat?
    Was it said that it can only be reached by plane?

    It seems to me that a plane is just a faster way of getting there, with a ship it takes longer, hence the entire Decolora Islands arc.


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    It seems more a common ship and ships tend to be quite slow. While with a plane you can reach a country in hours, with a boat you can take days. And besides, if I want to cross the ocean I can decide to pick the plane or the ship.

    I think is the same in the anime. They simply chose the ship out of the options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Was it said that it can only be reached by plane?

    It seems to me that a plane is just a faster way of getting there, with a ship it takes longer, hence the entire Decolora Islands arc.
    Yes, you are Wrong. They said (Oak or whoever), that Ash would need to board a plane as it was the ONLY way to arrive at the Isshu continent.

    Now they need to promote these minor prehistoric pkmn, and travel along these silly islands, so magically a boat route sprung up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durian Seed View Post
    Yes, you are Wrong. They said (Oak or whoever), that Ash would need to board a plane as it was the ONLY way to arrive at the Isshu continent.

    Now they need to promote these minor prehistoric pkmn, and travel along these silly islands, so magically a boat route sprung up.
    No, I remember back when BW was released I remember them saying Ship or a plane(not sure what Oak said in the anime). Plane is the faster mode of travel, ship is the slower mode. Hence the decorola arc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naughtynun View Post
    I agree!

    I'd rather have had Misty as a background character in BW than introducing both Iris and Cilan if all they were going to do was a tiny little bit for one generation and then at least one of them disappear after one cameo! I just don't see the point in introducing new main cast members again and again if none of the new ones will do anything of note and then bog off forever.
    Not to mention in my opinion reuse of older characters would be intelligent and innovative way to inject breath of fresh air in show which already suffers from stale, repetitive formula. It just doesn't make much sense to constantly add new companions which go nowhere ending unfinished, when there exists potential in older ones to do more with writers having bad habit of not finishing things they started just consigning their laziness and flaws on next set of companions repeating same thing all over again.
    Its bad move to let all those potential go to waste, because it would be far more interesting if writers instead of erasing them never to be seen again, decided to reuse older characters at some point. Actually doing continuation of their story becoming relevant again.

    That way we would still get new characters ,but fans would also be given opportunity to see their favorite from past in action again updated.
    It would make anime more continuity based, attract more older fans toward it, bring new twist to story and spice things up.


    Additionally with companions which already proven to be well accepted having potential its easier to inject more notable changes in their story since writers already have established groundwork and guidelines in form of history and accumulated progress allowing to take him forward picking up on things. Rather than going from scratch not having any support or indication through which they could regroup and create tangible story making things harder.

    That's why i never grew to like Cilan, Iris or any new character in same amount like it was case with previous ones,not necessarily only because of way things are handled but also because it becomes pointless when its already assigned how he/she will end up abandoned anyway leaving things unfinished never to be seen again.

    Speaking of Misty i always thought out of all sidekicks she had predispositions to make plausible way to go forward and create tangible story arc from it . More than its case with Iris and dragon types, since water is most widespread and common type out there, having enough variety and pokemon to choose from to create events spread over region through which we could see growth. Not to mention knowing her fangirling over Lorelei they could take her toward E4 direction trying to live up to her idol.

    However she was in anime at time when writing wasn't on same height like it used to be later on with anime formula being completely different back in day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    I think Cilan's leaving also. I think the writers saw that Brock became more and more unpopular to people as he went on and don't want to risk Cilan losing fans. If he stays, it's for one more generation at most.
    In most cases its actually opposite. For example Ash wouldn't be half as popular gathering such strong following if he didn't stayed for this long allowing to build up popularity, and spread his name across not only older but new generations of fans as well. Jessie, James and Meowth trio are mega popular to such point that they are even having their ow radio show.

    As for Brock it depends from place to place but in general he still has big sized fanbase being very popular judging by what i saw on various forums, youtube, facebook etc online.

    For most negative experiences don't erase fond memories they have about character and overall value he brought to show, with appreciation and liking not diminishing because of that.

    In most cases people appreciate when someone stays for longer time because it allows them to learn more about past and what molded someone to become what he/she is today, give them insight into someone story going through new directions developing further which is carried over new regions he travel through and add more substance to story making people grow more attached to character/invest in him.

    Unlike its case with shirt lived characters being frustrating to see them gone forever after departure with unfinished job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    It's also annoying how they never let most of the sidekicks accomplish their goals. I mean with Ash, although it's frustrating, it's understandable why he keeps losing. It's because they want to keep him in the show. I think either May or Dawn or both should have won their Grand Festivals.
    That's one of reasons behind people ending discouraged supporting with each saga constant cast cycling as well. I met many people which were disappointed when May and Dawn left halfway unfinished never achieving their dreams, when Misty left cast without getting proper closure leaving her water master dream and various things about her unresolved and undefined after departure regarding future, when Max was just tacked at gym being doomed to stay forever and rot never starting journey and getting first pokemon etc.

    Just to witness same scenery happening to every new companion filling up past with ton of unfinished characters which clearly had room to be done so much more continuing from what they achieved so far growing forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Brock's a perfect example why you don't keep characters for multiple gens.
    They kept Ash and TR for multiple generations too and judging by reactions most enjoyed in Ash further growth and maturity he experienced as trainer in AG and DP.

    Same goes for JJM trio with most liking when Jessie started contest career with TR getting more character development in newer sagas since it served purpose of enriching character backstory and giving him more depth. Its always nice to lean more about someone origin and what caused him to become person he is today building up on its personality. Thanks to lot of references to past, James and Jessie are probably most fleshed out characters in pokemon in that aspect with many things being revealed having rich backstories.

    Brock alone doesn't qualify as criteria through which we can predict in what way others would be treated depending on someone personality, compatibility with new characters, flexibility of his dreams and in what way things could be tweaked out to keep things fresh and have him/her gain more from longer stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracoflare View Post
    If Dawn/May's goal was enough to take away screen time from Brock, how the hell would you expect another goal. It gets cumbersome to write after some time, and eventually lead to dislike. There's a reason people were overjoyed when Contests were gotten rid off. It's hard to write another consistent goal.

    Take a look at Cilan, what exactly is his goal, where exactly is his character development?

    Moral of the story: The third wheel of the gang will always remain irrelevant and his only purpose will be cooking, explaining the effects of moves and abilities during battles.
    Way i see it, issue doesn't come much from quantity of someone role but more in how productively characters time and focus given to him when being on cast is going to be used.

    You don't necessarily need full fledged out structured story like May or Dawn had to achieve aim of creating endearing plot around character through which we can see him advance forward, and continue to entertain audience increasing their like toward him.

    Looking back main issue with Brock breeder goal was passivity. Since it didn't offered many outlets and possibilities to be expanded upon considering how character was never much interested into battling, training or entering competitions. Generally its much easier to write for coordinators and trainers and regardless of whether we were satisfied or not Misty, Iris and Cilan in general battled and had more growth in comparison.

    Still in AG Brock received solid focus imo getting more pokemon and development on his breeding career compared to Johto applying knowledge in various situations and learning new things about preparing food, taking care, consulting with other breeders etc..

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    Which companions would people most prefer to return? Who has the most endearing personality and most potential for development?

    I would choose Misty, then May, then Dawn, then Tracey, then Brock and finally Max.

    Its been so long since we last saw Misty, her team could be updated significantly, she has my favourite personality of them all and I think her goal is more achievable than the others. Granted, its less precise than wanting to be top coordinator, but that could actually help. Dawn, in my opinion, took away too much time from Ash with her contest journey. Misty could be a background character but, since her goal is 'to be a water Pokemon master' all she need do is get further towards that ideal to achieved something. She could catch new water types, train her older ones in battles against Ash (this is something we lacked in BW- the majority of battles between the twerps we got were Axew vs Scraggy) and battle water-type specialists. Kind of like Iris done well.

    My suggestions:
    -By battling Ash frequently in training battles, she could help the development of both characters and their Pokemon.
    -She could showcase evolved water-types if Ash won't!
    -She could train and evolve Horsea, Azurill, Psyduck even.
    -She could catch new water types and a few non-waters in order to not be too monotonous. Perhaps her team could have 4 waters and 2 non-waters.

    She could return for a season or the whole of the 6th gen anime and then another older character take her place.
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    The only one I would want to see but only for a small period of time is Tracey, the others I don't want them back, they are done let them be done for an arc sure, to be a full fledged companion no, it would seem forced at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naughtynun View Post
    Which companions would people most prefer to return?
    Probably none.

    Who has the most endearing personality and most potential for development?
    None.

    Its been so long since we last saw Misty, her team could be updated significantly, she has my favorite personality of them all and I think her goal is more achievable than the others.
    This is supposed to be about Iris and Cilan. Just because you think Misty's goal might be more achievable to you doesn't mean she should get more out of all the others. Especially when the main character doesn't get squat out of his. And Iris's is pretty achievable as well since she can hear dragons speak.

    Dawn, in my opinion, took away too much time from Ash with her contest journey.
    I don't think so. Dawn and Ash actually had equal amount of screen time since they both had things to do. That's what doing things requires. Screen time. Not one person always hogging it.

    Misty could be a background character but, since her goal is 'to be a water Pokemon master' all she need do is get further towards that ideal to achieved something.
    Why do that when she was already a background character? If you're a Misty fan, I was expecting you to say something like "I would want her to be something more than background wallpaper yet again". And if she wanted to be a water pokemon master, doing something more than she was would be better than what you're implying.

    -By battling Ash frequently in training battles, she could help the development of both characters and their Pokemon.
    Wha? Ash wouldn't need help with that. He will have others plus his rivals for all of that. In fact when she was there she barely did it with him. Even though Ash had lots of water pokemon too.

    -She could showcase evolved water-types if Ash won't
    Uh, newsflash, Ash will showcase water types like he always does. He had two in Unova which is a record. And I'm sure his future rival plus others on the cast will have them too. We really don't need mono type trainers anymore on the show using water only water pokemon. Plus, there was enough Oshawott and Piplup spam to last a lifetime.

    She could catch new water types and a few non-waters in order to not be too monotonous. Perhaps her team could have 4 waters and 2 non-waters.
    Read my post above.

    She could return for a season or the whole of the 6th gen anime and then another older character take her place.
    Then what would be the point of Ash going to a new region if this will happen? He could just stay in Kanto for a few weeks instead of doing that. I rather new fresh characters.

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    No old character is ever going to return to the cast so I don't know why this is even being discussed.

    Even in terms of cameos we're likely only going to see Iris and Cilan next gen. They wouldn't even give Brock a cameo in BW, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    No old character is ever going to return to the cast so I don't know why this is even being discussed.

    Even in terms of cameos we're likely only going to see Iris and Cilan next gen. They wouldn't even give Brock a cameo in BW, lol.
    Don't say that, series isn't even done yet. For all we know Brock could get a cameo when Ash returns home, he is in the same place right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    No old character is ever going to return to the cast so I don't know why this is even being discussed.

    Even in terms of cameos we're likely only going to see Iris and Cilan next gen. They wouldn't even give Brock a cameo in BW, lol.
    I could see Brock maybe being on pallet town to visit ash at the end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    They wouldn't even give Brock a cameo in BW, lol.
    Yeah, it's too bad Best Wishes is over and the cast isn't on some sort of vessel inbound to his and Misty's location; such a missed opportunity on the writers' part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    They wouldn't even give Brock a cameo in BW, lol.
    Actually, technically they did

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    Actually, technically they did
    Flashbacks don't count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Flashbacks don't count.
    Flashbacks are still cameos though right? XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    No old character is ever going to return to the cast so I don't know why this is even being discussed.

    Even in terms of cameos we're likely only going to see Iris and Cilan next gen. They wouldn't even give Brock a cameo in BW, lol.
    unless you know something different the only old main character never to return is Misty (one of main pokemon anime creators said so in an interview in '08 google it) although i doubt any FEMALE main character will return old characters have returned....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    the only old main character never to return is Misty
    Pl-ease. The same goes for May & Dawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    (one of main pokemon anime creators said so in an interview in '08 google it
    THAT'S IRRELEVANT. No female will return if Misty doesn't either. So don't single her out like that.
    Last edited by Blessed; 5th May 2013 at 4:16 AM.

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    I'm sure Dawn's gone for good now too. Just like May hasn't reappeared since the Wallace Cup, Dawn's last appearance at the end of the Junior Cup was the end for her too.

    In the 6th gen only Iris and Cilan will cameo.

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