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Thread: Is Ash Ketchum a Gary-Stu character?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDragonfangirl View Post
    Tell me, what do you consider a Mary-Sue if you think Ash is a Gary-Stu? To me, Iris has all the signs of one but again thats me ^
    I said so before:
    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Gary Stu/Mary Sues tend to be overly perfect character who has the story go their way due to favoritism with the writer or wish fulfillment. And I doubt anyone wishes to be Ash.

  2. #27

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    That doesn't at all sound like Iris to you?

    -Axew learning a powerful attack at the last second to due some thing against Cynthia when Paul was trashed in his fight with her in the D/P series.

    -Dragonite got given to her right before the tournament in BW2 and took out Dawn.

    For examples..
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDragonfangirl View Post
    That doesn't at all sound like Iris to you?

    -Axew learning a powerful attack at the last second to due some thing against Cynthia when Paul was trashed in his fight with her in the D/P series.

    -Dragonite got given to her right before the tournament in BW2 and took out Dawn.

    For examples..
    Well, Iris never beat Cynthia and while the tournament was poorly handled, I do like Dragonite for what he's worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marioluigifan05 View Post
    The title should be changed to "Is Ash Ketchum a poorly-written character?"
    Pretty much this, or you could change it to the show in general. But I think most people know this already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDragonfangirl View Post
    That doesn't at all sound like Iris to you?
    Iris has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, I realize you immensely dislike Iris but you don't have to bring her up in every thread because you're upset that she "stole" your favorite character's screentime.
    -Axew learning a powerful attack at the last second to due some thing against Cynthia when Paul was trashed in his fight with her in the D/P series.
    That move changed nothing, Axew still got skewered. Even then the move is used such a low amount it makes absolutely zero sense to have a massive brouhaha over it. Try again please.
    -Dragonite got given to her right before the tournament in BW2 and took out Dawn.
    A disobedient Dragonite that hasn't won any battles under her command that beat Dawn itself, not Iris and Dragonite, just Dragonite. Dawn beat May back in DP and had her Swinub evolved extremely quickly with pretty much zero experience into her strongest Pokemon and on top of that got a Togekiss near the end of DP. Try again please.

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    Ash is a Idiot Hero.

    Oh, look who the first entry under Anime and Manga is!

    Ash's primary personality flaws would and should be fatal if not for the sheer amount of luck that's thrown in his direction. He's naive and dumb and the anime reminds us of these two facts practically every episode. The only reason he seems to have survived this long was because of his support group that he inexplicably leads which includes a former (and current) Gym Leader who are experts in battling, a Pokemon Doctor to take care of his Pokemon, a waiter to cook him food, and walking personal navigators. There's also the squadron of near-invincible cuddly animals that he has in his pocket. Most of which seem more intelligent then him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Dawn beat May back in DP and had her Swinub evolved extremely quickly with pretty much zero experience into her strongest Pokemon and on top of that got a Togekiss near the end of DP. Try again please.
    Togekiss didn't exactly do anything for Dawn though, she only used it once and she didn't win that contest.

    I really don't understand how anyone can think Ash is a sue/stu, he has his flaws just like most other main characters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDragonfangirl View Post
    That doesn't at all sound like Iris to you?

    -Axew learning a powerful attack at the last second to due some thing against Cynthia when Paul was trashed in his fight with her in the D/P series.

    -Dragonite got given to her right before the tournament in BW2 and took out Dawn.

    For examples..
    Since Axew lost to Cynthia's Garchomp anyway, I fail to see how it makes Iris look like a "Mary Sue." And if I remember correctly, Dawn also got a Pokemon right before a big tournament but unlike Iris, she didn't even catch it; it was just given to her. I fail to see how Iris is at fault.

    Anyway, I don't think the term suits Ash for several reasons, but I won't go into detail since a lot of people already beat me to it. I'll just say that Ash is an inconsistent character because the anime has inconsistent writers. I don't completely blame Ash for his mistakes and to be quite honest, even though I have problems with his character, I think it's tedious to constantly talk about his flaws. I just think we all know what he's like by now and there's not much to be gained from criticizing his every move in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brownie View Post
    I don't find Iris to be one. Here are the other people I think are Sues/Stus: Solidad, Paul, Tobiass
    And Ash fits into this category... how?

    Stus are the embodiment of perfectness. Flaws, if there are any at all, seem tacked on and do not cause any problematic consequences for the character's goal or life in general. The ease with which they're able to achieve something makes them unrealistic and unrelatable.

    Let's start with the superficial:
    There's nothing indicating that his outer appearance is particularly appealing to people in the anime world. At least he's not meant to be the pretty boy type as shown in AG077, where those Mother Coordinator fangirls kept a ridiculous photo album of "bishounen trainers" which included Drew but not him. None of the crushes people and/or Pokémon had on him were love at first sight IIRC; they all slowly developed after Ash proved to be a kind, enthusiastic and helpful person despite his flaws (Anabel defeated him effortlessly, Chikorita nearly humiliated him and his Charizard in battle and Aipom had a field day making a fool of him before showing interest in him). The only one who might've had the impression that he was a flawless-looking, heroic dude was Macy (though I doubt that, since she didn't seem infatuated at all until he saved her).

    Even disregarding crushes and focussing on "normal" relationships... Ash certainly wasn't "the popular kid" back in Pallet, and even presently, it's not like people are naturally drawn to him. He has his way with many people and Pokémon after he interacts with them for a certain period of time, but he doesn't just effortlessly get them to like him. It takes time for them to get used to him and realize that childish energy, naďveté and clumsiness aren't all there is to him.

    Ash also seems fairly athletic, but that's easily forgotten when the plot demands laughs or that CotD X, rival Y or Pokémon Z be portrayed as a hundred times cooler. He's a good climber and can jump ridiculously high and far, but when he gets thrown off a cliff along with Paul, Paul is the one to get monkey powers while Ash plummets gracelessly into a lake. When he and Danny (that's someone you might consider Stu-ish, by the way) climbed up a rock face, of course Ash had to be the one to make a wrong move and almost fall. He can do cool tricks with a ball as long as he ends up getting carried away and hitting himself with it (BWS2-11). He can stand on one hand, but of course that's nothing when Brycen is next to him, who can do it a 1,000 times more elegantly and along with complex martial arts moves. Oh and of course Brycen can punch rocks and make them fall to pieces while Ash's attempt results in a swollen hand (as it should for a normal human being).

    His personality flaws aren't minor either. Like others have said, his impulsiveness, impatience and refusal to gain any theoretical knowledge about Pokémon frequently cost him battles, which are his primary activity in the show. So yeah, they won't even allow him to excel at what he's supposed to be most talented at. At most he's an extremely creative strategist, but it's not uncommon for him to run into someone who's just as unorthodox in their fighting style (Rudy, Grace, Tucker, Skyla, etc.). Does he just happen to have legendaries or super-strong Pokémon at his disposal without any build-up? Negative.

    Sorry if I sound harsh, but even those tiring "Ash fails at life" people have more going for them than this theory. For a main character (you know, the one kids should admire and adore and aspire to be like), his flaws are very great in number, with several of them often posing a hinderance for his path as a Trainer. If you want to see a Stu-ish main character, watch Detective Conan. Pokémon is the wrong place.


    Aaaand I got so worked up that I didn't even notice that this has been placed into the wrong section.


    EDIT: vvvvv matt0044, DC has lots of other characters that are really great, and even Conan's quite enjoyable sometimes. One Gary Stu doesn't make the entire show bad
    Last edited by Sushi; 4th April 2013 at 12:21 AM.

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    He is all of those things because he's the main character of a CHILDRENS show. Do you really think that the kids watching the anime are going to care? All they know to do is to get up on Saturday mornings and root for Pikachu to beat Team Rocket and gym leaders over and over again. I think they over dramatize everything that Ash does, to keep the children viewers happy and wanting more.
    Within my lifetime, I've done a lot of walking. I started my journey walking on a little path called Route 1. Little did I know that walking down that route would lead me onwards to a road that went by the name of Victory. Just west of Victory Road, I walked up an entire mountain where atop stood a silent trainer who was one of the mightiest I had ever faced. I've walked, through sandstorms, across the hard desert of Hoenn. I've walked through pelting hail, across the snow covered terrains of Sinnoh. And now as I look back on all my travels I find myself walking across the Skyarrow Bridge of Unova. It took a lot of walking through tall grass patches to get where I am today...But it was worth the walk.

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    Ash is as about as competent a trainer as the plot calls him to be, Sushi summed things up well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    Ash is as about as competent a trainer as the plot calls him to be, Sushi summed things up well.
    Point is the Ash is probably one of the most unsuccessful, and inconsistent main characters in a shonen series.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    Point is the Ash is probably one of the most unsuccessful, and inconsistent main characters in a shonen series.
    This show exist to sell merchandise, Ash is pretty successful. How is he not successful as a trainer? He's a typical shounen archetype and a lot less annoying than the likes of Naruto.
    Last edited by Doryuzu; 3rd April 2013 at 11:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sushi View Post
    If you want to see a Stu-ish main character, watch Detective Conan.
    *Sees your Avatar*

    Ironic much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    This show exist to sell merchandise, Ash is pretty successful. How is he not successful as a trainer? He's a typical shounen archetype and a lot less annoying than the likes of Naruto.
    It's the whole "this is for kids so this is how it should be" mentality. Just because the show is this because of what you said doesn't mean it has to be. It can be better in storytelling but they choose not to.
    Last edited by matt0044; 4th April 2013 at 12:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    It's the whole "this is for kids so this is how it should be" mentality. Just because the show is this because of what you said doesn't mean it has to be. It can be better in storytelling but they choose not to.
    I never once said that, however you are watching a show not written with your ideal intentions and mind and must tolerate things like this. You can either continue to complain about it or move past it and take the show for what it is. Ash is this because Ash is this, a main character who fits the role to advertise the anime alongside his cute electric mouse. That's that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    I never once said that, however you are watching a show not written with your ideal intentions and mind and must tolerate things like this. You can either continue to complain about it or move past it and take the show for what it is. Ash is this because Ash is this, a main character who fits the role to advertise the anime alongside his cute electric mouse. That's that.
    I see. So the Anime is beyond criticism all of a sudden?

    I know you didn't mean that but that's how you're coming off as. Of course I know what you mean. That doesn't mean I can't voice my issues with Ash or the show itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    He's a typical shounen archetype and a lot less annoying than the likes of Naruto.
    But at least Naruto and the majority of those other shonen heroes don't regress. That's the main thing that separates this anime from other shonen anime in my opinion. I see how well-structured those other anime are and I can't help but want this anime to become as good as them. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that progress should be made, at least where Ash is concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    I see. So the Anime is beyond criticism all of a sudden?

    I know you didn't mean that but that's how you're coming off as. Of course I know what you mean. That doesn't mean I can't voice my issues with it.
    I never once said you weren't free to voice your vices about the anime, complain all you want to your heart's content. But at the end of the day the Pokemon anime will still be a show that cares more about advertisement than crafting a coherent, consistent, plot-line and story. This show thrives on new places and new faces and quick spunky episodic plot-lines and, as I said before, Pokemon has a very predictable and easily emulated formula. Pokemon has never been a deep show on the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    But at least Naruto and the majority of those other shonen heroes don't regress. That's the main thing that separates this anime from other shonen anime in my opinion. I see how well-structured those other anime are and I can't help but want this anime to become as good as them. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that progress should be made, at least where Ash is concerned.
    Considering that most long running anime have their main characters stagnate, I don't understand what you mean. Ash is about as good as the plot needs him to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    I see how well-structured those other anime are and I can't help but want this anime to become as good as them.
    Naruto is... debatable but I see what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post
    I never once said you weren't free to voice your vices about the anime, complain all you want to your heart's content. But at the end of the day the Pokemon anime will still be a show that cares more about advertisement than crafting a coherent, consistent, plot-line and story. This show thrives on new places and new faces and quick spunky episodic plot-lines and, as I said before, Pokemon has a very predictable and easily emulated formula. Pokemon has never been a deep show on the surface.
    Of course, I don't expect it to be deep or profound like a Miyazaki or Satoshi Kon film. I'm fine with it being for kids and being made for merch. Does that mean it can't have good storytelling because of this? No. The likes of MLP:FiM and Mobile Suit Gundam blow this fallacy out of the water. It doesn't need any darkness or super depth (though it made Movie 3 very cool) but a good story doesn't either. I hope you know what I'm getting at.
    Last edited by matt0044; 4th April 2013 at 12:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doryuzu View Post

    Considering that most long running anime have their main characters stagnate, I don't understand what you mean. Ash is about as good as the plot needs him to be.
    What SHONEN type series about getting stronger have you seen where the main character never really get's stronger, or back-pedals in skill and maturity/personality? This show is supposedly about getting stronger after all.
    Last edited by Graham Aker; 4th April 2013 at 12:39 AM.

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    Hey guys, I genuinely think this is an interesting thread, but if the discussion runs its course to the point where people start sharing general opinions on Ash without addressing the Stu aspect, or talking about Iris, the show in general, other shows etc. I'll have to close this~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    What SHONEN type series about getting stronger have you seen where the main character never really get's stronger, or back-pedals in skill and maturity/personality? This show is supposedly about getting stronger after all.
    Ash stopped developing as a character after AG. "Getting stronger" is your a case of YMMV, I seriously doubt TP(s)TB are trying to "give off" the impression that you're picking up. He takes Pokemon, trains them and makes them into competent battlers and is always talking about getting stronger. That's the typical shounen formula, enjoy. Naruto has pretty much been stagnate for years in strength, no hugely noticeable leaps in strength since the first series and some parts of Shippuden. The writers aren't gonna make Ash invincible and write themselves into a hole and have to invent a bunch of convoluted new opponents with ridiculously immense power-levels for Ash's sake. Especially when he has to advertise new starters each Gen and take on similar low leveled gym leaders and Pokemon. Anyone coming into Pokemon asking for a coherent, beautifully crafted story and ending is fooling themselves. Actually I'd advise anyone with that line of thinking that watches this show and expects an ending like that to stop watching because they might be wasting their time. Even though I think this show will end someday, I'm enjoying the ride and it's about the journey, not the destination. I know you want Ash to win a league already and challenge the Elite Four and win have his character wrapped up and thus you felt like with his "higher" ranking in DP he should have won, challenge E4 + Cynthia and ended it all there.


    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Of course, I don't expect it to be deep or profound like a Miyazaki or Satoshi Kon film. I'm fine with it being for kids and being made for merch. Does that mean it can't have good storytelling because of this? No. The likes of MLP:FiM and Mobile Suit Gundam blow this fallacy out of the water. It doesn't need any darkness or super depth (though it made Movie 3 very cool) but a good story doesn't either. I hope you know what I'm getting at.
    You're free to say that all you please, it's perfectly fine to have that line of thinking and I'm not against it however, as I've said numerous times before:
    But at the end of the day the Pokemon anime will still be a show that cares more about advertisement than crafting a coherent, consistent, plot-line and story.

    And, no, Ash is not a Gary-stu.
    Last edited by Doryuzu; 4th April 2013 at 1:35 AM.

  23. #48
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    Oh come on I can't be the only person who thinks he's a self insertion Mary Sue :P
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  24. #49
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    If he was a Gary Stu he would have long been a Pokemon master.

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    ^ That's just because of plot.

    To fully answer the question, bland Mary-Sue in AG/DP, not in other sagas.
    I, stickerstaryoshi, am now authorized to use the usertitle "We got 3D: XY!", created by user Cresselia92 and to modify it according to my desires.

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