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Thread: Birds, Frogs, and Washing Machines: The Story of Online Battling in a Nutshell

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    Default Birds, Frogs, and Washing Machines: The Story of Online Battling in a Nutshell

    With the advent of sixth generation, a new set of rules have been introduced along with new mechanisms along with a cast of super powerful contenders that completely scrambles the metagame. Some old hard-hitters have lost their glory (I'm looking at you haxorus) while others obtained a chance to shine (yay for mandibuzz). Very few non legendary pokemon have come out of this unscathed such as scizor and dragonite as well.

    However, I've noticed an online phenomenon as of recent. A few pokemon have managed to become so prevalent that they give a completely new dimension to the term OU. These are of course:

    Talonflame

    Greninja

    Rotom Wash

    Aegislash

    Lucario (Mega)

    I understand that these pokemon are powerful, but doesn't anyone get tired of using them every battle? I have not yet been able to play a random battle without one of these showing up and it has become kind of dull facing the same things over and over again. I guess it is natural to gravitate towards what is powerful but doesn't the repetition ever wear itself out?

    One can argue that the previous generations are equally guilty of such acts with scizor, ferrothorn, tyranitar, and politoed but I've never had the honor of facing them on EVERY SINGLE TEAM I faced.

    Such an instance reminds me of how I used to use Mega Kangaskhan at the Maison. It helped me win battles all right but it has made the experience less enjoyable as an overall as I would only use it to mindlessly plow over the competition.

    So what are your opinions on this "phenomenon"? Do you believe this is a healthy chapter of the metagame? Are any of these guys your go to pokemon for EVERY online battle? Does this saturation add to or detract form the overall enjoyment of battling?
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    There is a general Pokemon discussion on the main GDP. http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...ussion-thread!
    NVM. Unless a mod decides otherwise, there seems to be nothing wrong with this thread.
    Last edited by Auraninja; 14th February 2014 at 9:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auraninja View Post
    There is a general Pokemon discussion on the main GDP. http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...ussion-thread!
    Oh I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong area, but I'm not trying to discuss specific pokemon...I was more so trying the discuss how the state of the metagame and people's opinions on how it has become shaped in such a way...the pokemon were just examples...
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    Since the first gen, the meta-game has always shaped around 8 or so pokemon. Personally I haven't
    noticed a big change that makes this generation any different. I'm just glad Scizor isn't on every team
    anymore. And that my favorite pokemon counter the above ones so well. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by The King of Ho-oh's View Post
    Since the first gen, the meta-game has always shaped around 8 or so pokemon. Personally I haven't
    noticed a big change that makes this generation any different. I'm just glad Scizor isn't on every team
    anymore. And that my favorite pokemon counter the above ones so well. :P
    See, I can understand first gen because there were only 150 to choose from...but now, there are 721 pokemon to choose from and yet even the more casual battling scene is showing a very notable skew towards certain individuals...last gen, I was able to see the occasional floatzel or serperior...but this gen it's been talonflame, talonflame, talon flame lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    Oh I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong area, but I'm not trying to discuss specific pokemon...I was more so trying the discuss how the state of the metagame and people's opinions on how it has become shaped in such a way...the pokemon were just examples...
    I think I made a mistake. I originally thought the thread was just about how those five effect the metagame, but it seems you are having a topic about how certain Pokemon rise in the metagame.

    Assuming that, there are Pokemon that a crafted for battle really well. It's a small percentage, but certain OU Pokemon can be thought of as trump cards in that metagame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auraninja View Post
    I think I made a mistake. I originally thought the thread was just about how those five effect the metagame, but it seems you are having a topic about how certain Pokemon rise in the metagame.

    Assuming that, there are Pokemon that a crafted for battle really well. It's a small percentage, but certain OU Pokemon can be thought of as trump cards in that metagame.
    But what confuses me the most is that as a powerhouse rises, shouldn't it's counters rise as well resulting in a more variable environment overall? Let's use talonflame and greninja as examples...Mega aerodactyl easily counters both of them...and yet I'm the only one I've seen actually use one online XD
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    I really hope that they'll use the third version of the game to balance things out better.

    It feels like more Pokemon suffered in the gen 5 to 6 transition then gained from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    But what confuses me the most is that as a powerhouse rises, shouldn't it's counters rise as well resulting in a more variable environment overall? Let's use talonflame and greninja as examples...Mega aerodactyl easily counters both of them...and yet I'm the only one I've seen actually use on online XD
    It's probably a trend of sorts. Using the smash bros tier list as an example, people will use certain characters, and other characters will remain low until someone tries to be good with them. In this case, I would think it is the result of how some of the competitors view the metagame.

    Funny though, my hall of fame has Talonflame, Greninja and Mega Lucario, but I had those for Flying, favorite, and Mega-Gardevoir counter respectively.

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    Wait, are you saying that competitive battlers - that is, people playing Pokemon to win - tend to gravitate toward the most effective Pokemon?

    Scandalous, really.

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    Hmmm I am fairly sick of seeing Greninja because of how overrated it is (I haven't even seen a fraction as many Charizards...) it was my 2nd favourite water starter, now... I'm beginning to dislike it.
    The others are fine, I love Lucario and getting a mega is mega awesome /shot
    Talonflame is hugely strong, and is very pretty. But I would like to see some variants, there are many more powerful Pokemon like mega Gengar/Mawile and speed boost Blaziken with protect. But hey, I don't really care if people wanna use them, I'll just make a team to counter it and can win more times then them because I won't be as predictable. And hey, it works.
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    I actually don't use ANY of the aforementioned pokemon, then again, i'm not a competitive battler. But if you ask me, i think the reasoning is that people look for the most ofensively viable pokemon they can get their hands on, Be it Greninja's ridiculous speed, (Mega)Lucario's versatility and power, or Aeigislash's offense/defense switching, They find whatever is most likely in wiping out a pokemon in one hit.

    I'd prefer using things that can go toe-to-toe with one of those hard hitters, that's why i raise a greater variety of pokemon. I don't like keeping things the same for long periods of time i like mixing things up once in a while.
    Last edited by Trot Away; 15th February 2014 at 2:29 AM.
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    This is one reason I dislike competitive battling. It's just the same stuff over and over again and it's really boring. I understand they're good Pokémon, but come on, creative strategies don't hurt anyone. I'm already sick of seeing the likes of Greninja and Talonflame everywhere!

    There's 718 Pokémon and people only use like 20 or so. I find that really upsetting in a way. No matter how "bad" or "outclassed" a Pokémon is, I still think they have their uses. Part of me wishes all Pokémon were viable so I have more of a chance to win with my favourites rather than use things I don't like.

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    The popularity of the rotom-w is largely in responce to the popularity of the talonflame.

    But yea it does get boring facing the same thing..although I haven't encountered to many of the mentioned pokemon except for rotom-w.

    For me though...charazard...everywhere ( -_-)
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    On Showdown, this phenomenon is even worse. Take what you already have on your list, then add Charizard, Genesect, Venusaur, Heatran, and Excadrill to that. I don't see too many Greninjas, though. Most teams have at least 3-4 of these Pokemon on them.

    Although, that's how the metas work. Huge, centralizing threats will emerge, which leads to Pokemon being added to counter those, which in turn become popular and centralizing, and new Pokemon are discovered that handle the threats of the meta well. Previously centralizing threats fall out of favor, and the metagame revolves around 8-10 main Pokemon. It evolves, but remains centralized. In any fighting game of any kind, centralization is inevitable.

    If you want to shake things up a bit, then use some of the more unique Pokemon. There's nothing wrong with it, and if you do well with them, people you fight will start considering these Pokemon for their team. If you succeed with a unique team, then the usage of some of your more underused Pokemon could start seeing the light of day.
    Last edited by The Imposter; 15th February 2014 at 1:58 AM.
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    I use Mega Luke. No I dont feel bad for using him. I should be able to use one of my favorite Pokemon without people complaining. Is he OP? Sure, maybe. That still wont stop me from using him.

    All the Pokemon you listed are annoying, but can be beaten easily with the right Pokemon. Its all about who has the better team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    I use Mega Luke. No I dont feel bad for using him. I should be able to use one of my favorite Pokemon without people complaining. Is he OP? Sure, maybe. That still wont stop me from using him.

    All the Pokemon you listed are annoying, but can be beaten easily with the right Pokemon. Its all about who has the better team.
    The complaint isn't that these Pokemon aren't too good. The complaint is that they're friggin' everywhere, which really does grind my gears, too. To be honest, I want to see some more variability in the metagame.
    http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=35776

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    Quote Originally Posted by CRVEmaster View Post
    This is one reason I dislike competitive battling. It's just the same stuff over and over again and it's really boring. I understand they're good Pokémon, but come on, creative strategies don't hurt anyone. I'm already sick of seeing the likes of Greninja and Talonflame everywhere!

    There's 718 Pokémon and people only use like 20 or so. I find that really upsetting in a way. No matter how "bad" or "outclassed" a Pokémon is, I still think they have their uses. Part of me wishes all Pokémon were viable so I have more of a chance to win with my favourites rather than use things I don't like.
    I feel exactly the same way. Back in the Gen. 4 days, I tried to get into competive battling thinking I could use my favorite Pokemon. Oh man, how disappointed I was to find out that kind of apporoach will only get you so far. I dropped it quicky and didn't turn back since. It also irritates me when people look down on a Pokemon just because it's not the best competitively. It's pretty shallow.
    Last edited by SKyLineR32; 15th February 2014 at 2:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    The complaint isn't that these Pokemon aren't too good. The complaint is that they're friggin' everywhere, which really does grind my gears, too. To be honest, I want to see some more variability in the metagame.
    I know what the complaints are, and honestly they dont bother me. Many of the battles I have with my team, I get a complaint for using Volcarona and Excadrill.

    Its not my fault that two of my favorite Pokemon work so well together.

    Seeing the same Pokemon over and over doesnt bother me. It just means that when I have counters for them, my chances of winning increase Dramatically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    I know what the complaints are, and honestly they dont bother me. Many of the battles I have with my team, I get a complaint for using Volcarona and Excadrill.

    Its not my fault that two of my favorite Pokemon work so well together.

    Seeing the same Pokemon over and over doesnt bother me. It just means that when I have counters for them, my chances of winning increase Dramatically.
    One time a person complained about me using Aegislash when he had a Mega Lucario and an Azumarill on his own team. The irony made me chuckle.

    Whenever the goal of a game is to win, people will do what it takes to win. Sadly, most people ignore the 200+ truly viable Pokemon out there and just use the ones that everybody else uses, regardless of another Pokemon that might do its job better. I use Roserade on my main team, and it is irreplaceable.
    http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=35776

    i'm pretty sure i just found the most hilarious pogeymanz are satan discussion ever

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Wait, are you saying that competitive battlers - that is, people playing Pokemon to win - tend to gravitate toward the most effective Pokemon?

    Scandalous, really.
    He's probably referring to how the mechanics of imperfect balance doesn't seem to work for the Pokemon metgame. Here's a video that explains it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    But what confuses me the most is that as a powerhouse rises, shouldn't it's counters rise as well resulting in a more variable environment overall? Let's use talonflame and greninja as examples...Mega aerodactyl easily counters both of them...and yet I'm the only one I've seen actually use one online XD
    For Pokemon, the gap between the best and worst is rather wide, and you're looking at a pool of over 350 final stage Pokemon. Counters to rising powerhouses and counters to those counters exists, but if you delve into the lower tiers to look for a counter for something in the upper tier, chances are your counter gets countered more easily as well. So people tend to rotate among a smaller group of better Pokemon. Isn't this how tiers were born in the first place? And in hindsight, we do have Pokemon that are just outright outclassed, so the actual number of effective choices are lower than the number of final stage Pokemon. Obvious examples are Pigeot and Fearow compared to other regional normal/flying, but right now Arcanine is outclassed by Entei, Ninjask is outclassed by Scolipede, just to name some a few.

    It's rather different from examples like Smash Bros and LoL.
    Last edited by Hidden Power; 15th February 2014 at 2:25 AM.
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    I must admit... The mighty Dragon type has really takin a hit with this new Fairy type but that's basically a repeat of gen 2 with the introduction of the Dark type. Though I think the Fairy type is a bit OP there aren't to many good Steel and Poison type attacks and few Pokes can learn Cross Poison... Despite all this I still play for fun. I only use Pokemon that I like even if it means winning less often and I know I'm not alone. Despite what the OP suggested I still encounter plenty of rouge teams in Random Match. So while the so-called Metagame has been shaken I still see plenty of Rouge teams and will continue to battle with the Pokemon I like best. PS I think all 3 Kalos Starters Final Evo's are awesome! Especially Delphox!
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    One time a person complained about me using Aegislash when he had a Mega Lucario and an Azumarill on his own team. The irony made me chuckle.

    Whenever the goal of a game is to win, people will do what it takes to win. Sadly, most people ignore the 200+ truly viable Pokemon out there and just use the ones that everybody else uses, regardless of another Pokemon that might do its job better. I use Roserade on my main team, and it is irreplaceable.
    Lol this post made me remember my old rain OU team back in fifth gen showdown....the only truly OU pokemon on that team was politoed for the rain...I also had a celebi for seeds, an omastar, lanturn, and an AZUMARILL before it became super hyped with its fairy typing....just imagine how far azumarill came...funny I don't see it more, I like using it more than greninja

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Wait, are you saying that competitive battlers - that is, people playing Pokemon to win - tend to gravitate toward the most effective Pokemon?

    Scandalous, really.
    Then I must be that one weirdo who isn't simply happy with with winning but rather winning with my favorite pokemon lol...I still remember sweeping someone's team of greninja, aegislash, and megazard Y with my BP smeargle and serperior...now THAT was a satisfying win....see if I just wanted to "win" I would just throw out my perfect IV/ EV'd extremekiller arceus and let it run rampant on random battles....would I ever do that? No! Why? Because it's not fun...(I do however, carry around said arceus or an occasional darkrai just in case I get someone with a whole team of Uber legendaries)
    Last edited by XXD17; 15th February 2014 at 2:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    Lol this post made me remember my old rain OU team back in fifth gen showdown....the only truly OU pokemon on that team was politoed for the rain...I also had a celebi for seeds, an omastar, lanturn, and an AZUMARILL before it became super hyped with its fairy typing....just imagine how far azumarill came...funny I don't see it more, I like using it more than greninja
    My biggest beef with Asumarill this gen is it's new Sap Sipper ability YOU DON'T GIVE A POKEMON WITH SAID TYPE WEAKNESS IMMUNITY TO THAT WEAKNESS!!! HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT!?



    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    Then I must be that one weirdo who isn't simply happy with with winning but rather winning with my favorite pokemon lol...I still remember sweeping someone's team of greninja, aegislash, and megazard Y with my BP smeargle and serperior...now THAT was a satisfying win....see if I just wanted to "win" I would just throw out my perfect IV/ EV'd extremekiller arceus and let it run rampant on random battles....would I ever do that? No! Why? Because it's not fun...(I do however, carry around said arceus or an occasional darkrai just in case I get someone with a whole team of Uber legendaries)
    I respect players who try to win with said Pokemon because they actually like them and not just because there effective battler's though whoever thought it was a good idea to allow Legends in Random Match was a freakin idiot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marbi Z View Post
    My biggest beef with Asumarill this gen is it's new Sap Sipper ability YOU DON'T GIVE A POKEMON WITH SAID TYPE WEAKNESS IMMUNITY TO THAT WEAKNESS!!! HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT!?
    Because not using Huge Power makes Azumarill completely useless.
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