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Thread: What could be done to make Ash more interesting (other than winning a league)

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    Judging by massive demand for original trio reunion it seems to me how most fans just want better written show which pays attention to history and previous companions investing more in kmain protagonist and his companions they grew to like. As opposite to starting things without finishing them, which is in writers habit it seems leaving most characters unfinished.
    Like... where? On serebii or older audience in Japan? I don't think overseas opinions really matter to the Japanese writers, since they're mainly writing for young kids (and apparently, young kids must have everything sugar-coated and happy *roll-eyed*). As for older audience, I'm not sure how many there are in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if there are very little, seeing the large variety of more mature anime to choose from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanicLanturn View Post
    Like... where? On serebii or older audience in Japan? I don't think overseas opinions really matter to the Japanese writers, since they're mainly writing for young kids (and apparently, young kids must have everything sugar-coated and happy *roll-eyed*). As for older audience, I'm not sure how many there are in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if there are very little, seeing the large variety of more mature anime to choose from.
    Judging by observations i noticed on various pokemon sites, facebook, youtube, deviantart etc or in real life there is massive amount of fans which would rather want that writers capitalize more on already workable successful characters doing build up on their stories,take them in new directions, set groundwork for evolution of friendship and storyline becoming more continuity based and eventful with adventures from main protagonist and friends having sense of growing forward. As opposite to basic, going from zero overused concept we got used to follow with novice companions.

    Current approach writers are currently using with anime finding itself stuck in never ending "circulus vitiosus" of Ash going through restart failing short of winning league, characters constantly being replaced discouraging people from growing attached to them ending unfinished and abandoned eroding continuity and impact they left on anime, shallow basic plot, static development of characters and unstable cast is formula which cannot sustain itself from much longer with constant decline in ratings and negative word of mouth only emphasizing on this issues further.

    This can't work for new generations endlessly either with such recipe anime currently follows compound of predictable, overused storyline not being especially thrilling and engaging to maintain their interest for many more years to come in future.

    Also by broadening series appeal to wider group of fans not staying just on target audience creating stable cast, strong continuity and meaningful development of its characters(especially Ash advancing forward reaching new higher spheres in his career)way i see it could create postulate for more attractive story, stronger following by keeping viewers hooked on show, and in end higher ratings.

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    Current approach writers are currently using with anime finding itself stuck in never ending "circulus vitiosus" of Ash going through restart failing short of winning league, characters constantly being replaced discouraging people from growing attached to them ending unfinished and abandoned eroding continuity and impact they left on anime, shallow basic plot, static development of characters and unstable cast is formula which cannot sustain itself from much longer with constant decline in ratings and negative word of mouth only emphasizing on this issues further.
    I don't see how this vicious cycle discourages people from going attached to characters. Misty, May and Dawn each got around 200 episodes on the show, which is roughly four years per character. I think that's more than enough time to grow attached to a character. Granted, the more savvy watcher will be able to guess when these characters will leave the show, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy that character for the time he/she are on the main cast.

    You'll probably won't agree with me, but I see the departures of Misty, May, Dawn and Brock as important steps in their character development because they all left to pursue their goals and to grow as people. Their development can't always revolve around Ash as their goals will, eventually, get in the way of each other. What's more, I feel that one of the more interesting aspects of the show is that Ash is always on the move, travelling to new places and meeting new people, and a good way to show off these new places and people is to have a character that represents the different cultures and traditions, as they did with Dawn, Iris and Cilan.

    This practice isn't what erodes continuity, as you put it. What erodes continuity is the lack of acknowledgement of the past from the one guy who's been there since the beginning: Ash. This plays a part in making Ash an unappealing character, since we don't get that sense that he has previous experiences and has progressed. and grown up because of those experiences. For example, his astonishment when a Pokemon evolves still remains despite the fact that he's seen countless Pokemon evolve before. Although it's a minor thing on its own, it's the sort of thing that can grind viewers down when combined with several others factors. A more major example is that his battling style in BW lacks the techniques he incorporated into it in DP that were influenced a lot by Dawn such as the Counter Shield.

    It's the probably the biggest change they could make to Ash's character without retconning anything or curtailing the development of his previous travelling companions.

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    Get rid of him, and let him just pass the torch to another character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawnBoy View Post
    No regressions, winning a league, not making rookie mistakes, evolve all his plushiemons including Pikachu, there's probably more lol
    Also he should actually try some of Paul's methods and strategies, because Paul is one of the best ordinary trainers in the anime, apart from the elite 4 members, Brandon, and the champions.
    Agreeing on everything this user said except for Pikachu. Reason is that it doesn't want to evolve yet.




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  6. #31
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    Stop hitting the reset button on his battling skills every gen.
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    To VoltTacklingPika:
    It discourage them from growing attached because they don't see any point in investing into someone when its destined already from start how he/she will leave cast permanently after few years anyway halfway unfinished never to be seen again. Along with any impact and purpose he brought to show ending erased and insignificant in longer run due to lack of references to past and throwbacks in this show. Basically once character leaves cast in pokemon he is good as dead.

    You would be surprised how many people because of this don't see any point anymore in growing attached to anyone not named Ash or TR.

    Likewise interpretation of their leaving helping them to accomplish dreams don't add much when taken in account how Ash presence doesn't influence in any way whether will someone come closer toward his aims or not when way their goals are structured allows to be inserted within current protagonist story fulfilling each other. Whether its May and Dawn contest carer which can be advanced in parallel with Ash quest(Dawn almost won GF on screen), Misty water master career which envelops entering water themed events like Whirl Cup, traveling and battling water experts, drawing links to E4 position and her idol Lorelei as way to rank up further etc.

    Nevertheless with stable cast where characters don't get constantly replaced you can better decant on screen idea of Ash and friends exploring world of pokemon, going through new adventures and challenges, having us learn new things about them while sharing their own culture and impressions with new people they meet, expanding knowledge about other regions being developed to point of being possible to have them experience more substantial growth . Since you already have characters with groundwork behind them reaching level of experience to open door toward next level, they passed long ago point of introducing themselves to each other which allows that friendship and interactions between them grow forward in new directions etc .
    Something which is common practice in many anime which keep same cast. Coincidence or not most other show which don't cycle constantly characters having stable cast which advance forward pursuing dreams while going in same direction usually has more engaging story, better on going plot and consistent following which keeps its ties to past allowing for narrative to be taken to new level.

    Way i see it one thing doesn't exclude another. Because while cast changes are sometimes required to shake things up and refresh show structure, there also exists such thing as going overboard with it. Since in case of your introducing too many new characters that can easily backfire losing chance to form stable, continuity based cast, on going plot and achieve loyalty among viewers encouraging them to get attached to characters staying until end to see how will story resolve.

    Which reflects negatively on Ash storyline due to no familiar face and established friendship, story between him and companion which transfers to next region which could create environment for more cohesive storytelling regarding protagonist in question getting carried over multiple regions through stability and continuity stable group allows .

    Im of opinion how constant cycling limits creativity because writers aren't forced to innovate , make fresh directions through which pokemon series could become continuity based show which gradually develops characters since every individual they bring in anime leaves before he would even have chance for more meaningful growth.
    We can see lack of creativity with same basic development they implement when dealing with new characters consisting of someone starting out as rookie or close to that eventually learning lesson or two ending ditched in favor of new one . Rinse and repeat, not putting to test writers potential and imagination to bring whole new angle to show and develop characters and story in whole new way we never saw.

    Sticking constantly with same basic formula makes your skills become rusty, you don't have challenges set in front yourself making you start to reconsider your current writing style and how to surpass your limits.

    Which leads to laziness pulling with itself drop of quality and limitation of creativity resulting in shallow and weak storyline, scarce continuity and wasted potential .

    Something which transfers over to way Ash is currently handled with writing staff not having any need or motivation to try harder and put more effort in Ash character development, progression of his pokemon or opportunity to be more and better fleshed out being under belief how current approach they're using is doing just "fine".

    Currently there is not much new and refreshing imo in seeing same boring cycle after every 3 to 4 years which follows same basic principle: "Ash goes back to Kanto leaving all pokemon behind except Pikachu, somewhere on road he meets new character, they develop initial friendship, after few years that companion leaves forever never to be seen again along with always falling down shortly from winning league preventing him from reaching next step in master career taking his story forward" rinse and repeat.doing same overused and bland approach with every new generation.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 24th April 2013 at 8:06 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Personally i still like Ash and his naivety, brash attitude and competitive spirit striving to become best. Mixed with childish and well intentioned demeanor putting lot of effort and care in pokemon often putting them in front of himself.

    Though i can understand people who are tired of repetitive, endless cycle hes been stuck into because im on same page about this too. But question does arise, is it worth the risk to try to replace serise mascot and lose people loyalty when writers could just instead fix mistakes and change current approach taking him on higher level?

    There are plenty of things going for Ash which could breathe new life in his character and make his adventures engaging to watch, being shame to have prospect for all exciting directions he could be taken forward go to waste.

    He still didn't won league, didn't challenged E4, champion etc not being even close to achievement of pokemon master dream. There are many things left unexplored about his past, such as father who could be introduced at some point being portrayed as master himself serving as ultimate test for Ash to prove if he has what it takes to become "best". Aka father vs son showdown.

    Writers could expand on whole connection to Ho-oh being said how this pokemon shows himself only to special trainers out there giving some background, explanation about this.

    We could see him after winning league leveling up as trainer learning how to develop new battling style, enter special harder challenges like Battle Frontier was, entering other leagues he didn't won and battle stronger trainers. Heck there could be whole tyoe of league foir "Masters" someone earns right to enter after winning champion league having completely new, unseen concept of tests and evaluators you need to pass to prove yourself worthy of title of pokemon master.

    In DP Lucian himself said how winning champion league is one of steps someone needs to conquer on road of becoming master, but its not only one. So we don't know what other challenges and complex tasks(like Battle Frontier was for example) Ash would need to accomplish before he becomes recognized as strongest trainer in world. Character wise Ash also has many flaws which stand on his way of becoming successful and respected trainer one day too suffering from immaturity,being naive and prone to doing foolish mistakes at times acting before thinking etc.

    So he definitely has potential to go through more significant development bringing whole new enjoyable outlook on it.

    When i see Tyson or Gingka from Beyblade who became world champions with their stories instead of ending receiving sequel going through deeper growth. Goku from DBZ who continued to evolve and learn new things after defeating major villains or winning tournament, Dan from Bakugan who after becoming word renowned brawler went through harder challenges having new problems and tasks to overcome i know for fact how there could be surely done a lot with Ash after winning league as well. As already explained before.

    Its only up to writers if they have motivation and courage to do step forward, and judging by decrease pf people interest, constant rating decline and negative critics they are reaching turning point where they would either have to custom things out and change status quo or sink down even lower.

    Way i see it with Ash we could see already experienced trainer who has background behind himself going on bigger tasks reaching higher levels as trainer which means stable and stronger pokemon, deeper development, better battles, opportunity to dive more into someone history etc.
    Additionally with him there exists requirements to take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth.

    Something you cannot do with rookies who are just starting out having to go through basics all over again.



    Honestly there still wouldn't be need for new protagonist since skills from new set of writers would just reflect on Ash development as character making better job with him and story.

    If anime comes to an end, i would rather have it that they finish it with character with who started everything (Ash)treating this series as one big continuity, not making any new alternate series after this. Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually.

    Better idea imo would be if pokemon tried out cast rotation.That way we would still get new characters, while at same time people being able to see their favorites from past(like Dawn, Misty, Brock, May etc) again in action and updated.

    Such thing could create groundwork on which it is possible to leave long lasting impact on audience, increase their loyalty toward show and set up path for stable ratings and increase of popularity in future. Because anime which keep older characters relevant doing mix of both older and new as result while choose to invest more in current protagonist taking him on bigger and better things can become appealing not only to new kids, but older ones as well gathering large group of followers. Like One Piece, Naruto , Bakugan and similar ones are doing for years.

    Rather than getting rehash of current series with new protagonist which will do same all gym quest, have Pikachu as main mascot and be rather similar to Ash character getting rid of all characters and everything which pokemon represented losing brand and charisma it build around itself.

    Judging by massive demand for original trio reunion it seems to me how most fans just want better written show which pays attention to history and previous companions investing more in kmain protagonist and his companions they grew to like. As opposite to starting things without finishing them, which is in writers habit it seems leaving most characters unfinished.
    I agree, but with other shows like Beyblade, Dbz and Bakugan, they can only have the main character become the world champion or save the universe so many times before it gets repetitive. Even Bakugan suffered from the same problem as Pokémon with Dan losing to a new character In the first few episode of a new season like Ash.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DedicatedFan View Post
    I agree, but with other shows like Beyblade, Dbz and Bakugan, they can only have the main character become the world champion or save the universe so many times before it gets repetitive. Even Bakugan suffered from the same problem as Pokémon with Dan losing to a new character In the first few episode of a new season like Ash.
    The thing about Bakugan is that Pokémon are cuter and sell better. If that wasn't the case then I'm sure they would have either gotten rid of him or would have had Pikachu evolve by now.

    As far as making him interesting, him losing to other characters or not doesn't make one person interesting. He could still win but be boring as well. Most people are asking to change the other characters themselves in order to please fan watching Ash for so long. For example, if Trip wasn't a beginner and was still losing to him, I would still feel horrible. And Cameron wasn't a beginner. He was exactly supposed to be more experienced than most of the characters on that show. The writers just making him more stupid than Ash himself is more degrading than Tobias.

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    Ash needs to catch at least one legendary pokemon, and beat the league so he can fight the elite 4, he needs to evolve his previous pokemon (quilava, bulbasaur, bayleaf tododile)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDaikenki View Post
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    I still love Ash no matter what! However, I think if they kept Ash like D/P Ash and improved him more it would have been better in my opinion, they could have just pulled a Dawn or May on us and have that one be the newbie of the cast, whenever they'd see a Pokemon we've already seen she or he could ask whos that Pokemon and Ash would Pokedex them, that way it won't make Ash look like hes lost his memory some howXD
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  13. #38

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    -Make him more mature, yet immature at the same time = AG + DP PERSONALITY.
    -Make him a threat in battles, instead of making him struggle to win until the very end.
    -Make him seem individual and unique as a trainer - it's always been a thought but it seems nowadays they want him to be an average trainer.

  14. #39
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    To be perfectly honest, nothing can be done. Ash is just used to follow the game plot and that's it; A tool used for $.

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    Give him a league win and then allow him to mentor another trainer in the new region. Also face different challenges because of his status.
    For example had he been allowed to do well in Hoenn, in Sinnoh he could have mentored Lucas. Then at Roark's gym, Lucas could have battled the team that we battled in the game (Geodude, Onix and Cranidos) whereas Ash would face some more powerful pokemon of Roark's (Golem, a stronger Onix, Rampardos, Probopass, or something along those lines.) Ash is an experianced trainer by now. Making him clueless as to how to fight a Geodude or something like that just robs him of all credibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoltTacklingPika View Post
    At this point, I think most fans have become jaded with Ash. We've followed this kid and his generic personality for over a decade and throughout that time the writers have proven they haven't got a clue what to do with him. They played with the idea of a slightly more mature Ash who acted as a mentor figure to a new trainer in AG and DP, but then inexplicably decided to regress him in BW and try and pass him off as a novice or rookie trainer on the same level as trainers just starting their journey.

    While Ash suffers from that, I also feel that, more than anything, he suffers from not having a clear, defined, motivation. You could fiddle about with his personality all you want, but without knowing why this kid is the way he is, we're always going to be lacking that extra bit of depth that would make him somewhat interesting. At the moment, the only thing that's driving him to become a Pokemon Master is his own childish dream.

    It's just strange to me how a character like Trip has received that basic character development yet Ash hasn't, even after all this time. We know more about the backgrounds of Brock, Misty, May, Max, Dawn, Paul, Trip and Iris than we do of our main character, and those guys all had some unique quirk or facet of their personality that made them interesting during the time they were on the show; some of them even had hobbies outside of Pokemon battling!

    What does Ash got besides being a trainer? Any other talents or interests?

    To sum up, Ash is just too basic. Adding a few extra layers to his character would go a long way to making him a bit more interesting and relatable.
    This pretty much sums it all up

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    Maybe give him a love interest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    Maybe give him a love interest?
    The writers do that once a season, but it never goes anywhere

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    Not to mention "shipping" has been abandoned in the anime aside from with filler characters or Pokemon crushes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    Maybe give him a love interest?
    Uh, no? That won't make Ash more interesting unless he were to fall for her too. Which is non existent in his character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel~ View Post
    Uh, no? That won't make Ash more interesting unless he were to fall for her too. Which is non existent in his character.
    I actually wouldn't mind if he'd gain a crush on a girl that was one sided for him for a change instead of the girl falling for him. Make him seem like he's growing up somewhere.

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    Ash beginning to question what it really means to be a Pokemon Master and why he would want to become one in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Not to mention "shipping" has been abandoned in the anime aside from with filler characters or Pokemon crushes.
    That never existed, they do pokemon couples but that it and how it should stay, the kid is 10.

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    I'd like to see Ash get truly angry and properly lose control on someone who can't handle it.

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    Um... I think that giving him a backstory could be a good way to make him more interesting. We knew some stuff about his rivalry with Gary and how they were when they were kids, so I'd like to know something more about him and his past, not only his present. Yeah, that's more a pipe-dream than anything, but a bit more of story never hurts.
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