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Thread: Treatment of Ash & Others in Best Wishes, Purpose of Da! Discussion

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    The Marine Cup was just a tournament done for fun on a ship full of passengers. The Don George, Clubsplosion, and Junior Cups were obviously major events for serious trainers all around the region. It makes sense that the level of competition in the Marine cup was lesser and that Ash could easily pick up the win over a bunch of tourists. And honestly, at this point I'll take any official battles I can get. I would still like to see one more major tournament before the end of Best Wishes, but I'm doubting it will happen.

    I think at the heart of the problem is the issue that Best Wishes can't decide if it wants to be about the battling (like Sinnoh) or the adventure aspect (like Kanto and Hoenn) of Pokemon, and can't fully commit to either. From a battling standpoint, for all the flashy animation the battles in Sinnoh were generally more intense, interesting and exciting, and the process of training and battling was thought out much more carefully. At the start of Best Wishes it seemed like they were going that route, but seemed to lose interest in Ash's training and his preparation for the league as well as his battles with his rivals around the fifth gym. From an adventuring standpoint, they've tried to include some interesting locations but Unova as a region seems to be more urbanized and you don't get that feeling you got in Kanto and Hoenn where the main group was traveling for weeks on end through mountains, forests, etc. between cities. With such a short distance between cities, there's not much room for danger and excitement.

    I don't want to trash the Da Islands saga too much because I did like the second and third episodes, but it does seem like a sign that the writers are struggling to figure out where they want to go with this franchise. I guess the answer is just to save all their good ideas for X/Y, and I am hopeful they can learn from their mistakes in Best Wishes and the show will be better because of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVD_fan View Post
    The Marine Cup was just a tournament done for fun on a ship full of passengers. The Don George, Clubsplosion, and Junior Cups were obviously major events for serious trainers all around the region. It makes sense that the level of competition in the Marine cup was lesser and that Ash could easily pick up the win over a bunch of tourists.
    I think the point is they could have forgone the tournament completely an done something else with the time, only to have a final tournament later on. Having Iris lose horribly to a one episode CoTD, and not Georgia in the Marine Cup (which could have brought development)...and having Ash just seemingly get a throwaway tournament instead of battling/defeating someone and something imposing like a legendary Pokemon in it, so he'd have SOME kind of feat would have been a more interesting.

    Right now it's like the writers are "Oh, we didn't let Ash win anything...that's right! Eh just throw in some random insignificant thing he can win." If that's how they're going to handle Ash from now on, they really should just right him off.
    Last edited by Graham Aker; 12th May 2013 at 10:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDragonfangirl View Post
    So, your saying Iris didn't get any special treatment? Really??? I dare you to go back and re watch all the Pokemon series to BW and compare how Ash was treated than and nowXD Me thinking this has nothing to due with being bored of a character, its getting annoyed how the writers haven't really let him win any tournaments, in the past he did but not this series.
    Yes I am saying that. The girl that only has 4 Pokemon? The girl that had 3 of those Pokemon disobey her or not get along with her at some point. The girl that still has the Axew that gets lost every so often. That girl got special treatment? If she was the queen you say she'd be the one with the full team, stomping her rival, thrashing Drayden etc. I've seen the series, I don't have to go back, Ash isn't entitled to win anything, which is what the majority seems to believe. The only thing he has to win are his gym badges and get a decent placing in the League, which he always does.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFonz View Post
    Seriously with the useless trophies comment?

    Have you even watched this show before BW started airing? I'm surprised you can say BW Ash is the same as the past 13 years before BW. Each series brought change, but BW stepped it up to a new level.

    With the first Don tournament, we never saw Ash lose to his companions while being able to use his best. Iris got three BS wins, which is what let be "Lolz Pikachu? Go Excadrill!". Pikachu at its best could definitely beat Excadrill. By best, I mean VS Latios best.

    The next Don tournament was great. Ash and Scraggy grew...although it was sad to see Scraggy get totally demolished

    The Junior Cup was a joke. Krookodile got a nice win but Boldore's battle gets skipped, and Pignite has a terrible loss just so Trip can get through the next round.

    The League was a joke. Ash does nice against Trip. It wasn't an awesome battle but acceptable. VS Stephan, things were looking better even though 2 battles got skipped for no reason. But the filler episode interruption and Ash losing the way he did against Cameron was a disgrace to the quality that the Leagues have had up to that point
    Again, what's the big deal? Ash didn't get tossed out in the first round and he has a memento of the only tournament that actually mattered, the Junior Cup. Isn't that enough? He's had reasonable accomplishments in BW. So he didn't get a Pokeringer win this region, call the police to solve such an injustice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    I think the point is they could have forgone the tournament completely an done something else with the time. Having Iris lose horribly to a one episode CoTD, and not Georgia in the Marine Cup (which could have brought development)...and having Ash just seemingly get a throwaway tournament instead of battling/defeating someone and something imposing like a legendary Pokemon in it, so he'd have SOME kind of feat would have been a more interesting. Right now it's like the writers are "Oh, we didn't let Ash win anything...that's right! Eh just throw in some random tournament he can win."
    But that's the problem, people seem to think that the Marine Tournament was to give Ash a win in something, it wasn't. It was to fill the first part of the episode and that's it. I don't see why we're reading any more into the situation than that, it was just to set up the remainder of the episode. Who's to say Ash won't face a bigger challenge later on it DA? We don't know, but saying that the Marine Tournament was his redemption is more than a little silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Aker View Post
    I think the point is they could have forgone the tournament completely an done something else with the time, only to have a final tournament later on. Having Iris lose horribly to a one episode CoTD, and not Georgia in the Marine Cup (which could have brought development)...and having Ash just seemingly get a throwaway tournament instead of battling/defeating someone and something imposing like a legendary Pokemon in it, so he'd have SOME kind of feat would have been a more interesting.

    Right now it's like the writers are "Oh, we didn't let Ash win anything...that's right! Eh just throw in some random insignificant thing he can win." If that's how they're going to handle Ash from now on, they really should just right him off.
    I don't see how this tournament was just there to make Ash look good. The thief needed to use Galvantula to short out the power, but obviously if he just did it it would look suspicious. So they had to come up with a reason for him and Ash to battle. So, why not just do a quick tournament? The thief beating Iris also added a little bit of intrigue into his battle with Ash. Tournaments are fun and they found a way to squeeze one into the episode in a way that made sense and served the plot.

    I also hope they give Ash something big to carry some momentum into X/Y and show that he's gained something from the events of Best Wishes, whether it's a tournament win or a close battle with one of the elite four or something. But I don't see the Marine Cup as being that finale, and I don't think the writers see it that way either.
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    What's the purpose of DA? I thought it was obvious that it's supposed to be a cluster of filler episodes. I don't know why anyone assumed that Ash was going to do big things right from the start. His goal is to return to Kanto and he's just taking the long way there because the plot requires it. As for the tournaments, he won the one from the previous episode and although it was a filler tournament, Ash's victory there should count for something at least.

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    I don't believe Ash got poor treatment in BW. I believe everyone else got poor treatment though. Pikachu was super nerfed in the beginning. Dent got like NO development I understand he was well established as a sommelier and a gym leader in the beginning but how about a episode where he had to test to maybe become a S rank or give him more Pokemon. Crustle is cool but Stunkfish is rarely used at all. Iris had a goal to train and evolve Axew but I guess marketing stopped that because in like episode 4 or 5 they decided to go at their own pace....meaning no evolution. Axew got Larvaitar treatment except the always crying. Trip was a poor man's Paul without the strength or brains just a Godperior.

    Bianca, Stephan, and Georgia were just rehashes of Barry, Morrison, and Ursula in my opinion and got treated not as well as I would have liked especially Georgia and Bianca. I didn't like that fact Ash didn't win a tourney or anything but he always held his own and plus there was an overall drop in Ash's prowess in BW anyway. I would say it should be expected all the people he drew inspiration from are gone. (Misty,Brock, Dawn, and to a lesser degree May) I sense writers fatigue with BW but of course my opinion and mine alone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    I don't believe Ash got poor treatment in BW. I believe everyone else got poor treatment though. Pikachu was super nerfed in the beginning. Dent got like NO development I understand he was well established as a sommelier and a gym leader in the beginning but how about a episode where he had to test to maybe become a S rank or give him more Pokemon. Crustle is cool but Stunkfish is rarely used at all. Iris had a goal to train and evolve Axew but I guess marketing stopped that because in like episode 4 or 5 they decided to go at their own pace....meaning no evolution. Axew got Larvaitar treatment except the always crying. Trip was a poor man's Paul without the strength or brains just a Godperior.

    Bianca, Stephan, and Georgia were just rehashes of Barry, Morrison, and Ursula in my opinion and got treated not as well as I would have liked especially Georgia and Bianca. I didn't like that fact Ash didn't win a tourney or anything but he always held his own and plus there was an overall drop in Ash's prowess in BW anyway. I would say it should be expected all the people he drew inspiration from are gone. (Misty,Brock, Dawn, and to a lesser degree May) I sense writers fatigue with BW but of course my opinion and mine alone.
    You had me until the latter half. Ash's skills haven't dropped, he's not using the same Pokemon in the same element. Plus saying that Misty, Brock, Dawn and May made him better is silly. Iris and Cilan can inspire him just as much. But that's my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    You had me until the latter half. Ash's skills haven't dropped, he's not using the same Pokemon in the same element. Plus saying that Misty, Brock, Dawn and May made him better is silly. Iris and Cilan can inspire him just as much. But that's my opinion.
    I believe they can as well. i only say what i said because Misty and Brock were mentors to Ash from OS thru AG into DP. MAy and Dawns' contest provided a new perpective to battle to Ash especially Dawn's most of his battle strategies in Sinnoh derived from Dawn. I believe Iris and Dent had tons to offer Ash but neither was in the spotlight enough to be a major influence. That's part of my point of both of them being mishandled.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikatoshi26 View Post
    I believe they can as well. i only say what i said because Misty and Brock were mentors to Ash from OS thru AG into DP. MAy and Dawns' contest provided a new perpective to battle to Ash especially Dawn's most of his battle strategies in Sinnoh derived from Dawn. I believe Iris and Dent had tons to offer Ash but neither was in the spotlight enough to be a major influence. That's part of my point of both of them being mishandled.
    I don't believe that, his friends affect him because they push him forward and help him keep up his confidence. However as a trainer, they have little to no affect on him. They all have their own styles, Misty and Brock didn't make him a better trainer, nor did May and Dawn. Ash had to do that for himself, however they were there for him and so are Iris and Cilan. So in that sense, yes they all have inspired him, but they don't affect his performance in a region. The only thing I'd say would clearly affect him is if he had to go a region solo and did horribly because he didn't have anyone there to push him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    I don't believe that, his friends affect him because they push him forward and help him keep up his confidence. However as a trainer, they have little to no affect on him. They all have their own styles, Misty and Brock didn't make him a better trainer, nor did May and Dawn. Ash had to do that for himself, however they were there for him and so are Iris and Cilan. So in that sense, yes they all have inspired him, but they don't affect his performance in a region. The only thing I'd say would clearly affect him is if he had to go a region solo and did horribly because he didn't have anyone there to push him.
    I disagree. Ash copied some of Dawn's Contest tactics, most notably the Counter Shield. So Dawn obviously helped Ash's battle style. Also, I fail to see how Ash's friends push him forward. I mean weren't people complaining about Iris "bashing" him by calling him a kid all the time? In retrospect I don't think constantly nettling someone is a good motivational tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    I disagree. Ash copied some of Dawn's Contest tactics, mostly notably the Counter Shield. So Dawn obviously helped Ash's battle style. Also, I fail to see how Ash's friends push him forward. I mean weren't people complaining about Iris "bashing" him by calling him a kid all the time? In retrospect I don't think constantly nettling someone is a good motivational tool.
    The only exception is Dawn with the counter shield, but even that wasn't like his ace in the hole. Ash in DP did a lot of heavy training. But what did Misty do? Brock cooked and showed him how not to pick up women lol. Nothing to do with his status as a trainer is the point. Yeah people complain about Iris playing with him, but she's always his biggest supporter when it counts. But again, what the companions bring to the table isn't measured in Ash's battling skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    The only exception is Dawn with the counter shield, but even that wasn't like his ace in the hole. Ash in DP did a lot of heavy training. But what did Misty do? Brock cooked and showed him how not to pick up women lol. Nothing to do with his status as a trainer is the point. Yeah people complain about Iris playing with him, but she's always his biggest supporter when it counts. But again, what the companions bring to the table isn't measured in Ash's battling skills.
    All kinds of suggestions and advices helped him in becoming a better trainer. Maybe Ash isn't blatantly copying the battling styles of his friends or rivals, but he acquired experience and improved as a trainer thanks to them too, not only by himself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    All kinds of suggestions and advices helped him in becoming a better trainer. Maybe Ash isn't blatantly copying the battling styles of his friends or rivals, but he acquired experience and improved as a trainer thanks to them too, not only by himself.
    One example that comes to mind is his win against Brycen. The strategy he used came from Bianca's Clubsplosion battle with Trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    All kinds of suggestions and advices helped him in becoming a better trainer. Maybe Ash isn't blatantly copying the battling styles of his friends or rivals, but he acquired experience and improved as a trainer thanks to them too, not only by himself.
    Yes I know that, I've already said that. However, what was suggested was that Ash is a worse trainer because he didn't have characters xyz by his side this region instead of Iris and Cilan, which is untrue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    Yes I know that, I've already said that. However, what was suggested was that Ash is a worse trainer because he didn't have characters xyz by his side this region instead of Iris and Cilan, which is untrue.
    Yeah, I agree with that. It's how he has been handled during the series that makes him seem a worse trainer than what he was in DP. I don't think that his companions have to be blamed for that.
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    I wouldn't say that he got worse, I just think it's how the writers mishandled him. Had DP Ash fought Cameron, it'd either end in a victory for Ash, a tie or a close matchup resulting in Cameron winning. Arguably, Iris and Cilan were more experienced battling in the Unova region than any of the other companions. And I'd say that the animators made his appearance look a lot younger than in DP. (Even Dawn looks older than Ash in BW!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gohan5 View Post
    You had me until the latter half. Ash's skills haven't dropped, he's not using the same Pokemon in the same element. Plus saying that Misty, Brock, Dawn and May made him better is silly. Iris and Cilan can inspire him just as much. But that's my opinion.
    That is true. His friends can only do so much. He is the one that has to train and do the work. His friend aren't going to do it for them. However, training with him is good rather than doing nothing is still better.

    As far as Ash's friends is concerned, this really shouldn't be about them since it's not their fault since he always has different traveling companions and that they each have something different about them. It's the writers having to focus on advertisement and development of the other characters that made it seem like Ash's accomplishments aren't as high as they should be by now.
    Last edited by Caseydia; 13th May 2013 at 12:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karczx View Post
    I wouldn't say that he got worse, I just think it's how the writers mishandled him. Had DP Ash fought Cameron, it'd either end in a victory for Ash, a tie or a close matchup resulting in Cameron winning. Arguably, Iris and Cilan were more experienced battling in the Unova region than any of the other companions. And I'd say that the animators made his appearance look a lot younger than in DP. (Even Dawn looks older than Ash in BW!)
    Infernape alone could Wipe out 4/6 of his team. We know pikachu can handoe samurott and swanna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Infernape alone could Wipe out 4/6 of his team. We know pikachu can handoe samurott and swanna.
    Infernape would have rampaged Kotetsu in my opinion but so would have Sceptile. I miss Sceptile.....


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    I was watching some episodes of diamond and pearl the other day and I noticed how different the Ash from those episodes is compared to the current one. For example the current Ash still makes mistakes even tho hes traveled to many regions. It just isnt realistic for him to make mistake after mistake and not learn from them. He obviously regressed and I think thats bad for the show

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosMage View Post
    Every tournament loss has a decent explanation. Iris winning the Club Battle was linked to the recent breakthrough with Excadrill, her powerhouse who had a massive advantage over Pikachu. Besides, it's not like Iris isn't one of the main characters and the set of wings never came into play much. Snivy and Palpitoad each took out a major recurring rival and Cilan and Iris had the privilege of defeating Trip and Stephan, so I don't see the problem with this one. It's not like Iris beat Ash with Axew, she used her strongest pokemon who she's been with for a long time.

    In the Clubsplosion, the whole point was to showcase Sawk and Throh, plus a few other fighting-types they'd not featured yet (like Conkeldurr and Emboar) and develop Scraggy a little. Scraggy got some believeable victories against Simisage and Simipour but that tournament could only ever end one way, with Sawk defeating Throh against all odds. Ash, Iris and Cilan all had decent battles in the tournament but this one just wasn't for them or their pokemon to shine in.

    As for the Junior Cup, which I agree was majorly rushed, I believe that also ended exactly as it should dramatically. Trip idolised Alder, as had been set up a long time before, and wanted to battle him. We also had Iris' Dragonite, Dawn's return, Trip's newly-evolved Serperior, Georgia and Burgundy being back... that's a lot going on. Ash had the privilege of an evolution and victory for Krookodile against Iris' seemingly unstoppable Dragonite, but Trip was the one who needed that battle against Alder more than Ash. The battle was barely a couple of minutes long, because as with all champion challenges on the show Trip didn't stand a chance. They also needed to build up Serperior for the league, as presumably they'd decided by that point that Trip would only battle Ash with Serperior there.

    And then there's the League. Ash doesn't win Leagues. We know this. It was a disappointing League, but hardly a shocking one. Ash did well against two established rivals and a couple of off-screen guys. The writers dropped the ball with the Cameron battle, but the rest of the league was competent enough considering how short they had to make it.

    I definitely want another major challenge for Ash at the end of all of this Da nonsense, but I won't complain about Ash not winning tournaments when the writers had perfectly good reasons for Iris, Stephan and Trip to win their tournaments and didn't just decide at random, and Ash performed respectably in all three. And the league... come on, stop complaining about Ash not winning leagues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KibaLG8 View Post
    And now its making me wonder about the entire series in general as well. We have an episode about Crocanaw, the Eevee Episode, we've had a Sweet Honey Episode, then this Detective Cilan Episode, then the Jirachi Episode & Oak Episode which don't seem that bad, same with the Zoroark Episode. Then Butterfree, Ash VS Iris, & Clair. Were not sure when exactly this saga is ending but we have most episodes revealed until July and a tournament doesn't even seem possible until after the Genosect Movie airs, which isn't until after July 14. And since they usually tend to show pictures/summaries/etc of upcoming episodes like 2-3 months in advance, then the Clair Episode will most likely occur in July, and 2 breaks are likely yet again in July, making the possibility of a tournament less likely.

    We have two rivals who's stories haven't concluded, yet the ending implies we won't see them again. If they wanted to fill in the gap why not add some better important events instead of showing things that don't add anything new to the characters. Then Iris hasn't done anything in a long time, with Clair's appearance being the only thing. Cilan may have an episode dedicated to him that's NOT filler. There is just so much things they can do but instead they have episodes that everyone will just forget. And to top it all off there isn't a main goal for Ash, battle-wise. I just have no clue what they are doing at this point.
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    3. Iris participated in the Marine Cup. TROLLLL, her storyline has ended basically.. Clair will only be the 'bookcloser'/Johto..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    Yeah but the Marine Cup wasn't as hyped and didn't seem all that important compared to the others before. Why couldn't he win in front of his other rivals that were around him at the time? And how come Ash only won something like this when Iris and Cilan weren't present?
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    Marine Cup wasn't hyped at all. :P Iris was present, she was in the Top16, Cilan was excused at the time.
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    I wasn't blaming any of his friends for Ash's horrible treatment ie mistakes/loss/No tournament wins. While I know Ash doesn't need to win every tournament, one win would have been nice though. I blame BW writers!!! My opinions on Iris are the same however are still the same, while Iris may not have had an entire team, she had powerful Pokemon and won a tournament and got to the finales of BW 2 tournament with just Dragonite, my opinion though.

    edit;

    I agree with a lot of people here, the writers seem lost what to do now, they should just have given one last big tournament and let old rivals enter to finish rivalrys and let the gang train Pokemon that need to be trained {Axew}
    Last edited by BlueDragonfangirl; 13th May 2013 at 1:47 AM.
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    So far Axew's dream of becoming a mighty Haxorus is never going to happen. Only because Nintendo wants to sell Axew character goods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karczx View Post
    So far Axew's dream of becoming a mighty Haxorus is never going to happen. Only because Nintendo wants to sell Axew character goods.
    No, I can actually see it evolved when Iris appears, Axew probably didn't evolve because they made the stupid mistake of keeping it outside the pokeball and then they didn't want to throw it into one if he evolved I guess.

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