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Thread: Losing in the Anime

  1. #1

    Default Losing in the Anime

    Just like in real life, losing is a reality for Ash and all of the other characters in the anime. What do you think of that? Personally, I find it really painful to see these characters lose time and time again... Like when Dawn made it all the way to the finals of the Grand Festival to lose to Zoey and her b*tchy Glameow with the arrogant grin. Or when Ash's Pikachu's Electro Ball wasn't strong enough to ward off Cameron's Lucario's Aura Sphere, causing them to lose the match. I just hate those moments! The worst part for me is when they vow not to lose, and everyone in the stands cheers their hardest and begins to believe in them, only for them to lose anyway. It's as if the writers build up the enthusiasm to make the inevitable loss that much more painful. Uhg! If you're anything like me, you lose enough in real life, and you kind of want to see these characters succeed. I don't know. What do you guys think about this?
    Last edited by OceanWaterOtter; 19th May 2013 at 4:47 AM.
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    Well yeah, they'd have to do that because if any of them won, the anime would be over.

    But yeah at least they could have made a better, more exciting matchup vs kotetsu rather than his lucario sweeping almost everything.

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    It's nice to see a bit of reality in the anime since it already lacks so much but there's only one thing wrong with it: the Pokemon anime isn't real. It's fiction. Just like with all fiction, it's not meant to mirror reality in every way. We expect a payoff for sitting through and watching it whether it be accomplishments, a lesson, etc. Sure, someone not always winning is good one or two times but it gets repetitive after that. Just like Ash, May, and Dawn losing. Again. And again. And again. It gets repetitive and you start to lose interest as you get older.

    Of course, the writers of Pokemon certainly get this. It's almost certain. It's just that they are aiming at new kids every generation so they can get away with it. The news kids cheer Ash, he loses, new kids cycle in, they cheer, he loses, etc, etc. Thus they can get away with this. You know? How many kids anime have the main character losing at the end? Not many. Many kids probably don't see this kind of stuff until they get to things like Pokemon.

    Does it suck? Yeah, for the old guys like you, and the regulars here, and the regulars of all Pokemon anime forums all over the internet. It sucked for me too when I used to watch regularly. But you know what you're in for before you watch. You know it's already poorly written so a lot of stuff isn't going to be great. Poor animation, poor characters, poor plot it's nothing new for the old guys.

    Sure you can complain about it but you already knew what you were in for: a show that isn't great, aimed at kids, and where Ash and his friends won't reach their goals until the end. So just enjoy the ride if you're watching it. Or simply skip a generation like I did with V and wait for the next one.

    Yes, losing sucks. No matter what, it does suck. But it's easier to cope with when you already knew it was coming and you chose to go through it anyway.

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    Doesn't matter. Maybe when they actually end the series is when they really give up on their dreams of being top whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    It's nice to see a bit of reality in the anime since it already lacks so much but there's only one thing wrong with it: the Pokemon anime isn't real. It's fiction. Just like with all fiction, it's not meant to mirror reality in every way. We expect a payoff for sitting through and watching it whether it be accomplishments, a lesson, etc. Sure, someone not always winning is good one or two times but it gets repetitive after that. Just like Ash, May, and Dawn losing. Again. And again. And again. It gets repetitive and you start to lose interest as you get older.

    Of course, the writers of Pokemon certainly get this. It's almost certain. It's just that they are aiming at new kids every generation so they can get away with it. The news kids cheer Ash, he loses, new kids cycle in, they cheer, he loses, etc, etc. Thus they can get away with this. You know? How many kids anime have the main character losing at the end? Not many. Many kids probably don't see this kind of stuff until they get to things like Pokemon.

    Does it suck? Yeah, for the old guys like you, and the regulars here, and the regulars of all Pokemon anime forums all over the internet. It sucked for me too when I used to watch regularly. But you know what you're in for before you watch. You know it's already poorly written so a lot of stuff isn't going to be great. Poor animation, poor characters, poor plot it's nothing new for the old guys.

    Sure you can complain about it but you already knew what you were in for: a show that isn't great, aimed at kids, and where Ash and his friends won't reach their goals until the end. So just enjoy the ride if you're watching it. Or simply skip a generation like I did with V and wait for the next one.

    Yes, losing sucks. No matter what, it does suck. But it's easier to cope with when you already knew it was coming and you chose to go through it anyway.
    I think that you're right. The writers certainly understand that having the main characters lose time and time again does become repetitive after a while. And they probably keep Ash at ten years of age solely for the purpose of appealing to newer, younger, more naive generations of Pokemon fans. Ash is certainly not a character that ages with you. I don't understand, though, why winning has to be the bottom line. There are plenty of interesting ways to keep an anime going after winning. It's really not the terrible show killer that they fear it is. As for May and Dawn, well, Dawn really, I completely don't understand why she could not have won against Zoey. The writers were going to retire that character after generation IV anyway, why did she have to come so close to winning that she could taste it only to lose? Are they really so hellbent on teaching kids to be good losers? But I guess that you're, right. I knew it was coming, it always does, so I should either enjoy the ride or find a new anime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanWaterOtter View Post
    I don't understand, though, why winning has to be the bottom line. There are plenty of interesting ways to keep an anime going after winning. It's really not the terrible show killer that they fear it is.
    Probably to keep the status quo or to make it easier on themselves so they don't have to keep him continually progressing over the years. Well, Ash would be covered by the latter. May and Dawn probably don't win to make Ash look a little less bad.

    I completely don't understand why she could not have won against Zoey. The writers were going to retire that character after generation IV anyway, why did she have to come so close to winning that she could taste it only to lose? Are they really so hellbent on teaching kids to be good losers? But I guess that you're, right. I knew it was coming, it always does, so I should either enjoy the ride or find a new anime.
    Yeah, they should've let Dawn win. Or at least beat Zoey earlier on in the tournament. I'd reiterate my above statement about not having Ash look like a failure in comparison to his friends. Of course, one trophy doesn't necessarily make you better but then comes "how can Dawn win one on her first try but not Ash???" and the like.

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    They didn't want Dawn to win her very first Grand Festival, they probably only had her get into the finals because the writers knew that would be the final Contest in the anime. So since they knew they were getting rid of Contests, they figured might as well have the main character make it to the end.

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    Ash doesn't win every battle, but he wins the battles that matter. Every time he's competed in a Pokemon League match against a regional rival (IE not someone who showed up right before the league), he's won. He beat Gary in Johto. He beat Conway and Paul in Sinnoh. He beat Trip and Stephan in Unova. While he might not win the entire tournament, he wins the battles that the viewers are most invested in.
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    It is sad to see them lose, but sometimes they have to. Which makes me sad that the writes don't let them win though battles they've been training for.

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    No main character will ever win anything other than a side competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    They didn't want Dawn to win her very first Grand Festival, they probably only had her get into the finals because the writers knew that would be the final Contest in the anime. So since they knew they were getting rid of Contests, they figured might as well have the main character make it to the end.
    I also agree with that but also Zoey was suppose to be Dawn's rival she never beats. Just like how even though Ash beat Gary in Johto Gary is always 1 step ahead. So I can buy the end of contest theory but I also believe Dawn was never going to be Zoey anyway.


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    The Zoey rivalry was different than the others because she was more like her mentor than rival, so Dawn didn't really need to beat her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    The Zoey rivalry was different than the others because she was more like her mentor than rival, so Dawn didn't really need to beat her.
    Zoey was definitely more like a mentor than a rival, but still, having Dawn make it all the way to the finals of the Grand Festival only to lose was a complete let down. The part I hated the most was that all eyes were on her. All of Dawn's friends were cheering for her, and all of her rivals were watching—silently cheering for her too. Her mother was even there. All of that communicates to the viewer that this is an important moment in Dawn's life. Seeing her lose after all of that just hurts. I don't want to see a character fail that way, at least not without some sort of redemption. She gets no such thing of course. There is no rematch with Zoey nor a second chance at the GF. It's just over.

    A similar thing happened with Ash at the Unova League. Everyone was cheering for him and Pikachu to prove their bond and affirm their hard work by beating Cameron. Bianca even talked about what great chemistry Ash and Pikachu had and how amazing their bond was. It was really Ash's moment to prove himself. With unshakable resolve and gleaming eyes, he even vowed earlier to win the Unova League. Seeing Pikachu get knocked out by that dorky Cameron and his overused and overpowered Lucario was just painful. (Actually, why even a Lucario? That's so fourth gen. A Zoroark would have been more interesting.)
    Last edited by OceanWaterOtter; 15th May 2013 at 10:20 PM.
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    I wouldn't have a problem with Ash losing so much if he actually learned from his experiences and got steadily better to be honest. Like, if he could just keep everything he's learned throughout his journey in his mind and used all that knowledge to his advantage, I'm sure he would be a great battler. But alas, he seems to lose half his battles and many of them due to mistakes that could have been avoided had he used prior knowledge. Overall though, I can't be bothered to care for the battling aspect of the anime these days because even when a character does win, the win seems so unrealistic that there's no point in trying to logically justify said win in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciccone View Post
    I wouldn't have a problem with Ash losing so much if he actually learned from his experiences and got steadily better to be honest. Like, if he could just keep everything he's learned throughout his journey in his mind and used all that knowledge to his advantage, I'm sure he would be a great battler. But alas, he seems to lose half his battles and many of them due to mistakes that could have been avoided had he used prior knowledge. Overall though, I can't be bothered to care for the battling aspect of the anime these days because even when a character does win, the win seems so unrealistic that there's no point in trying to logically justify said win in my opinion.
    i understand where you are coming from. i don't mind him losing, everyone loses from time to time. the problem is that he doesn't ever improve. he doesn't learn how to improve and he makes the same mistakes over and over. it can get depressing, but he makes very slight improvement every region.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    No main character will ever win anything other than a side competition.
    ^ I second this.

    This is also the reason why Ash probably won't win a league, other than the Battle Frontier or Orange Islands. If Ash did win a major league it would probably signify the end of his travels and the writers don't really want to replace him so this is why they usually let rivals or last-minute insert characters win these competitions instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    No main character will ever win anything other than a side competition.
    true. they wouldn't carry on travelling if they won, so they will lose constantly until they want to end it all. it is annoying, but it either have them lose or have no anime.
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    I'm fine with them losing- but they never win, which really irks me as he's probably the most experienced trainer.

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    Considering he's been a trainer for less than a year, I doubt he's the most experienced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Considering he's been a trainer for less than a year, I doubt he's the most experienced.
    Are you talking about Ash? Because he's been a trainer for at least a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    Ash doesn't win every battle, but he wins the battles that matter.
    Well, if he'd win all the battles that matter, he'd win tournaments.

    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy909 View Post
    but he makes very slight improvement every region.
    He regressed in BW, and did worse than in DP during the League...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Dragon View Post
    Are you talking about Ash? Because he's been a trainer for at least a year.
    He's still ten years old, I wouldn't be so sure about that...

    Anyways, I think it's good that main characters lose every now and then: if they'd win all their battles, there would be no tension, that would make the anime very boring. But like Ciccone says, Ash never learns from his mistakes, and even regresses now, which also isn't good.

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    ^ Agreed. I mean sure, Ash isn't invincible, but the main point is, he's always been improving prior to BW. In Sinnoh, he makes it to the top 4, clearly shows his Pokemon has improved and learned new tricks, and even fights a trainer who nobody could beat his Darkrai and even beats it and is able to defeat a Latios as well.

    Now in BW (I haven't watched past the end of the Unova League) and he hasn't accomplished any of that and loses to an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    It's nice to see a bit of reality in the anime since it already lacks so much but there's only one thing wrong with it: the Pokemon anime isn't real. It's fiction. Just like with all fiction, it's not meant to mirror reality in every way. We expect a payoff for sitting through and watching it whether it be accomplishments, a lesson, etc. Sure, someone not always winning is good one or two times but it gets repetitive after that. Just like Ash, May, and Dawn losing. Again. And again. And again. It gets repetitive and you start to lose interest as you get older.

    Of course, the writers of Pokemon certainly get this. It's almost certain. It's just that they are aiming at new kids every generation so they can get away with it. The news kids cheer Ash, he loses, new kids cycle in, they cheer, he loses, etc, etc. Thus they can get away with this. You know? How many kids anime have the main character losing at the end? Not many. Many kids probably don't see this kind of stuff until they get to things like Pokemon.

    Does it suck? Yeah, for the old guys like you, and the regulars here, and the regulars of all Pokemon anime forums all over the internet. It sucked for me too when I used to watch regularly. But you know what you're in for before you watch. You know it's already poorly written so a lot of stuff isn't going to be great. Poor animation, poor characters, poor plot it's nothing new for the old guys.

    Sure you can complain about it but you already knew what you were in for: a show that isn't great, aimed at kids, and where Ash and his friends won't reach their goals until the end. So just enjoy the ride if you're watching it. Or simply skip a generation like I did with V and wait for the next one.

    Yes, losing sucks. No matter what, it does suck. But it's easier to cope with when you already knew it was coming and you chose to go through it anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Dragon View Post
    Are you talking about Ash? Because he's been a trainer for at least a year.
    When did he become eleven?

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  25. #25

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    Maybe time in the anime doesn't flow at the same pace that it does in the real world. How could he have traveled to so many places and entered so many annual competitions in less than a year? Actually, I'm pretty sure I remember Dawn saying that "This year the Wallace cup is going to be held in the Johto Region." Maybe time is still passing even in the world of the anime, but the characters just aren't aging. Whatever the case may be, Ash has experience not by time or age, but by the sheer number of battles, competitions, and Pokemon that he's raised. He shouldn't lose quite as much as he does. Why did he lose to Cheren for instance? Or Bianca's dad? Now that was a battle that mattered, and he still lost. The deal was that he would go home if he was defeated, yet Ash still couldn't win.
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