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Thread: Serebii CCAT2

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny Magmortar View Post
    "Playstyle: Offense"

    Yet all of the suggestions so far have been defensive?

    Try Sub Magnezone. Sub / Charge Beam / Thunderbolt / HP Ice. Works well with Rotom W's Volt Switch and sets up on a bunch of things that would come in on it (such as Ferrothorn). It also exterminates Skarmory and Scizor who could prevent Landorus from sweeping. Not just that but if the opponent ever uses CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, Scarf Jirachi's Iron Head (or defensive Jirachi with no speed), or Ferrothorn you are almost guaranteed two kills.



    Magnezone @ Leftovers
    Timid
    252 Speed / 252 HP / 4 Defense

    Substitute
    Charge Beam
    Thunderbolt
    HP Ice

    What do you feel this pokemon adds to the team?

    Destroys bulky Steels that Landorus has trouble with (like Skarmory and Bronzong) while shitting on Ferrothorn. Works well with Rotom W's Volt Switch. Generally gets two kills per game if the opponent runs Ferrothorn or plays sloppy with CB Scizor / Jirachi. Tanks hits well and can check Outraging Dragons. Pairs defensively incredibly well with Landorus and Rotom W.

    What do you feel the item does?

    ... Heals 6.25% per turn. Allows more Subs obviously.

    What do you feel the EV spread achieves?

    Speed outruns Modest Politoed / Adamant Breloom and no speed base 100s. 252 HP guarantees that CB Scizor Bullet Punch will take 3 hits to break your Substitute, so with careful planning you will always kill it with a Sub intact, and not be left subless as you kill it due to an annoying crit. It also makes Jirachi Body Slam a 3-4HKO.

    What does the specific moveset do?

    Kills Steels and in MOST games gets two kills. HP Ice generally allows a second kill on Landorus / Gliscor as people often try to revenge kill it with a ground type. This obviously grealy benefits Rock Polish Landorus.
    This accomplishes little for the team magnezone is used for its ability trap ferrothorn and scizor and kill it, specs mag adds the umph this team needs in the form of raw instant power something sub mag cant do

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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeckotrainer View Post
    This time Contrail won't win. Muhahahahahahaaa. (Evil laugh that failed miserably).



    Heatran@Air Balloon/Life orb/Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Ev's: 252 Satt / 4 sDef / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature (+Satt, -Att)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Heatran gives us a much easier time against Sun teams, checking a variety of threats and also setting up SR which is cool because then we don't need another pokemon dedicated to setting up SR on our team.
    Most of the time Heatran is going to switch in on a Grass move aimed at Lando or Rotom-W, an Ice move aimed at Lando, or a random Fire move that threatens another team member. Heatran has fantastic synergy with Rotom-W, which lets it switch in safely with volt switch, and then allowing it to hit the switch-in with a Fire Blast or setting up SR. With 130 Base Special Attack and that being maximized with ev's and nature, Heatran is going to hit hard. I'm still not sure what item to give Heatran, air balloon is cool, but Rotom and Lando are already immune to ground moves, so that immunity isn't too important. Life orb gives Heatran a lot of power, but heatran will die early because he has no means of recovery, unless we get a wish passer. Leftovers is the most reliable, but lacks the power of Life orb or the immunity of air balloon. So what do you guys think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Voice Of The Forest View Post
    Ok firstly your arrogance needs to stop Russian is just trying to make a point that rotom can't touch celebi. Secondly dont call people noobs it shows disrespect to not only russian but to al of us and disgraces the pokemon community.


    Magnezone @ Choice Specs
    Nature Modest
    Ability Magnet Pull
    EVs 148 HP 252 SAtk 108 Spd
    Volt Switch
    Hidden Power [Fire]
    Flash Cannon
    Sleep Talk/Signal Beam/Thunderbolt
    Magnezone is a pokemon that I actually run on my double dance landorus team myself and it serves very efficiently as it provides something landorus really loves, the removal of steel types. Along with rotom wash this magnezone has the muscle to power through some walls that destroy landorus such as skarmory, and some bulky water types such as jellicent. Flash cannon serves as the main form of stab to punish rock types such as terrakion or tyranitar. It secondly serves as a way to punish ground types that want to switch in. Hidden power fire ensures an ohko upon all steel types except ferrothorn in rain which it does a nice 80% anyways. Volt switch allows us to add a second facotr to the volt core with rotom to help keep momentum if they haven't any ground types. The final move slot is up to you so that it can aid the team and fit to the opponent. Sleep talk allows this team to have a sleep absorber for breloom so that you can counter it a little easier, signal beam will blast celebii, and other grass types. Finally if thunderbolt is not doing the damage output you want try running thunderbolt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skamory7 View Post

    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Regenerator
    Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA 252 Spe
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn

    Why should said Pokemon be used?
    Scarf Mienshao is a very underrated Pokemon in OU, despite it's natural tier being UU. Personally, I prefer Mienshao over Terrakion because of it's overall better coverage moves and ability to stay longer on the field. U-turn + Regenerator is a great combo that can heal off SR damage taken from switching in, and can heal hits that it can't take very well, due to it's poor 65 / 60 / 60 defenses. Some threats to the team so far (Landy-T and Rotom-W) are Scarf Abomasnow (which is the second most common set after EB), Starmie, and Agility Thundy-T, especially that last one. Mienshao can handle all three respectively (HJK Obama, U-turn Starmie, Stone Edge Thundy-T [HP Ice only does around 40%] and stuff). Mienshao also forces a lot of switches, which Landy-T likes because it needs to set up, as well as Rotom-W because the opponent could send in Jellicent and boom U-turn into Rotom-W and Trick it into getting a Choice Scarf. I chose Hasty nature over Naive because Mienshao is more likely to get hit by a Psyshock or Hurricane or Air Slash or something than a special hit. Anyways, I think Mienshao would be a great offensive addition to this team.

    Hopefully I also answered most of the questions in the OP, because the item and EV set are pretty much self-explanatory.
    I feel that these are way too offensively based. Right now, our team comp is more of a bulky offensive spin, which still stays in the realm of offense.

    Right now, what the team needs really is a blanket cover for Dragons and a setter for hazards. Heatran technically can do this, but without bulk investment and Leftovers, it can't take repeated bashings from STAB Outrages. Furthermore, The use of Air Balloon is kind of redundant with Lando-T and Rotom-W, both of which get Levitate. To be honest, Air Balloon Heatran works well with Pokemon who are susceptible to an Earthquake. Considering neither of the members so far are even hurt by Earthquake, AB Heatran's effectiveness diminishes greatly.

    Magnezone's in the same boat, but this time he offers less than Heatran does. The team so far isn't walled that hard by Steels currently. A +2 Landorus-T can pub-stomp Jirachi and non-AB Heatran and 2HKO some Forretresses and Ferrothorns. Rotom-W hits Skarmory pretty hard with Volt Switch. Besides, Contrail's Fat Scarf Rotom-W fills in a similar role to Magnezone's (shutting down walls), making Magnezone's trapping abilities all the more redundant.

    Mienshao feels a bit out of place. It doesn't address Dragon threats or Hazard needs. Heck, it doesn't even outspeed the tier's most common Scarfers, Terrakion and Keldeo. I don't want to sound rash or anything, but Mienshao really doesn't have a place on this team .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Requiem View Post
    It's time to make my appearance here, nominating a Pokemon we all know we'd eventually see: Ferrothorn


    Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
    252 HP/ 4 Atk / 252 Def
    - Leech Seed
    - Thunder Wave
    - Stealth Rock
    - Power Whip

    I'd like to present my favorite wall in Ubers, the Arceus Killer. I've killed so many Arceus with just this one set, mostly Extreme Killer, and while it's more gimmicky in OU, in the right hands the Ferrothorn is deadly. Ferrothorn adds to the team two things it will desperately need, Paralysis support and hazards. Even after a Rock Polish, threats like ScarfKeldeo and ScarfLatis still are able to outspeed Landy, and in Keldeo's case OHKO (And Latios, if Modest). Paralysis also helps against set-up sweepers such as D-Nite, can give Jira a taste of it's own medicine, and help Rotom outspeed threats oce it's Tricked it's scarf. Stealth Rock is a move that has revolutionized the meta game ever since it's release in Gen 4. Having a team with out rocks is possible, but hard to take out some threats such as Multi Scale D-Nite. Also, Ferrothorn is an excellent defensive pivot and lure, mainly for Heatran which bothy Landy and Rotom can easily handle, and is lso a great counter to rain, well when the Machine is out. Rocky Ferro also stops dragons cold. Outraging against this things isn't a wise idea, as the poke will lose at least roughly 30% per turn, and factoring in LO make it even worse. Leech Seed is a really annoying move, and is great at wasting away at BP teams who are foolish enough to set up with out a sub. While Leftovers seems to now adays to be Ferro's prefered option, Rocky Helmet is still the best item IMO on Ferro. It basically becomes the epitome of a Physical wall, making almost every physical move a chance to lose a ton of damage. It also paris up well with Landy, who's intimidate makes Ferro's defenses even stronger. While it does lose constant recovery, leech seed mroe than makes up for it. It's EVs are set up to make it a faster physical wall, especially after a T-Wave. The usual approach is to T-Wave, set up seeds and/or rocks, and then smash away at Power Whip, which is an especially strong move that makes Espeon think twice about switching in. To end it off, Ferro is immune to toxic, a move that can stop almost any offensive team cold with out Heal Bell support.Whiel Ferro does have some obvious conters, it synergyies well with both Machine and Landy, and is an excelletn defensive pivot, supporter, and wall that would be a good addition to the team So anyways sorry for the text wall
    I was definitely thinking that the next team member should be somewhere along this line. It accomplishes the current goals right now: Dragon check/counter an d Hazard Setter. Ferrothorn can almost always switch in safely on an Outrage or Earthquake from a Dragon and set up its hazards. It also kinda deals with Rain threats with Power Whip. Personally, I would go with a Relaxed nature and Gyro Ball to maximize Offensive output against Dragons and non-Banded Terrakion, which is another large threat to this team.

    Well here's my two cents. It's probably not going to be very popular, but whatevs.

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    Nature: Impish (+ Def, - Sp. Att)
    224 HP/252 Def/ 32 Spe
    - Spikes/Stealth Rock
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    It does the same thing as the Ferrothorn above, but much less offensively based. The only reason I submitted Skarmory is because it can better deal with non-Banded versions of Terrakions as well as deal with set-up sweepers better (SD Terrakion, DD Salamence, SD Garchomp).
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  3. #128
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    You say Mienshao is too offensive, yet what is the playstyle of the team? Offense.




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    Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie / Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Sleep Talk

    This guy is extremely nice for either wearing down Landorus-T's checks and counters, as well as sweeping after Landorus-T has worn down the opposing team. Scarf is to allow it to outspeed non-scarfed Lati@s, Keldeo, and +1 Dragonite. He also handles Breloom well, who can be problematic, as we aren't running a defensive Landorus-T. Close Combat and Megahorn are two extremely powerful STAB moves, Stone Edge hits Flying types, and Sleep Talk ensures he can handle Breloom, and gives us someone to absorb sleep. I prefer Moxie over guts since it increases his sweeping capability, but if we find we desperately need a status absorber, we can go Guts. He also has very nice synergy with Rotom-W, with Psychic attacks being the only thing that can be annoying for the two. Overall, this guy gives us a solid revenger killer, and allows us to wear down Landorus-T's checks and counters. He can also do late game cleanup well, or can be a status absorber. Imo, the best option for the team.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skamory7 View Post
    You say Mienshao is too offensive, yet what is the playstyle of the team? Offense.
    "I feel that these are way too offensively based. Right now, our team comp is more of a bulky offensive spin, which still stays in the realm of offense. "

    Right now, I kind of see the team move towards a more Bulky Offense team rather than a pure offense one. Bulky Offense is playstyle in which members are able to tank hits and dish damage out both effectively. Granted that definition is cut-and-dry and we can have many exceptions to this rule, Mienshao certainly cannot switch in safely on most moves (probably except Dark moves).

    Putting this argument about Offense/Bulky Offense aside, Mienshao doesn't really help the team in a big way, as I said previously.

    Sorry if I made my argument sound as if we were building a Stall team. I just think that, considering the members on our team currently, we can definitely attempt to take this team out of the pure offensive realm and move it on a more bulky offensive track, as decided by Contrail's Fat Rotom.
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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    "I feel that these are way too offensively based. Right now, our team comp is more of a bulky offensive spin, which still stays in the realm of offense. "

    Right now, I kind of see the team move towards a more Bulky Offense team rather than a pure offense one. Bulky Offense is playstyle in which members are able to tank hits and dish damage out both effectively. Granted that definition is cut-and-dry and we can have many exceptions to this rule, Mienshao certainly cannot switch in safely on most moves (probably except Dark moves).

    Putting this argument about Offense/Bulky Offense aside, Mienshao doesn't really help the team in a big way, as I said previously.

    Sorry if I made my argument sound as if we were building a Stall team. I just think that, considering the members on our team currently, we can definitely attempt to take this team out of the pure offensive realm and move it on a more bulky offensive track, as decided by Contrail's Fat Rotom.
    Bulky Offense is different from plain Offense. That aside, Mienshao KOs many threats to the team, and forces a lot of switches, which Rotom an Landy like.




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  7. #132
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    I carefully looked over your description regarding top threats to the team (most of which are legitimate).

    Abomasnow
    I see your point since Ice Shard + Wood Hammer completely craps over these team members. However, looking through the usage stats, I find this:

    Regular stats (May 2013)
    | 57 | Abomasnow | 2.27125% | 44751 | 2.086% | 40548 | 2.346% |

    1850 "1337" stats (May 2013)
    | 63 | Abomasnow | 2.16783% | 44751 | 2.086% | 40548 | 2.346% |

    As we can see, Abomasnow isn't high up enough for it to be considered a primary threat to this team, which means the odds of meeting an Abomasnow is somewhat on the low side. Furthermore, as teambuilding goes along, we are most likely going to add Pokemon that serve that can counter Abomasnow (many Pokemon that can counter top tier threats such as Terrakion and Steel-types can also handle Abomasnow)

    Starmie
    Also a big threat to Lando-T. This is less of a threat due to the Scarf Rotom on our team. Even though he is fat, he isn't slow. 220 Speed EVs with a Choice Scarf brings Rotom-W's speed up to 395, which is more than enough to outspeed and heavily damage Starmie with a Volt Switch, especially with hazards down. iirc, Thunderbolt shouldn't do too much to this Rotom-W (please correct me if I'm wrong), making it a strong counter to Starmie.

    Agility Thund-T
    Okay. So this is a legitimate threat, even though Thund-T is like 30~ in usage, but he's still a bit of a specific threat that should be answered later in the team-building process.

    Basically, 3rd pick is basically another blanket pick that covers the other unchecked threats. Rotom-W covers Rain and walls in general pretty well, not to also mention check Landorus-I pretty well. Lando-T itself covers Fighting-types pretty well bar a few choice ones such as Breloom. What we need to cover now is Dragons and Terrakion-ish. Mienshao doesn't really come close to offensively pressuring the Dragons and Terrakion. In a 1 v 1 situation, some dragons and Terrakion will KO Mienshao (regarding either typing, smart switch-in, or pure speed altogether). Using Scarf Mienshao as your blanket cover is a bit of a gambit and requires big predictions (high risk, high reward). Make a good prediction, and you put your team in a huge, HUGE advantage. Make a bad prediction, and you hurt your chances of winning that battle greatly. So at this stage, we are trying to optimize checking coverage without increase the risk factor.
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  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    I carefully looked over your description regarding top threats to the team (most of which are legitimate).

    Abomasnow
    I see your point since Ice Shard + Wood Hammer completely craps over these team members. However, looking through the usage stats, I find this:

    Regular stats (May 2013)
    | 57 | Abomasnow | 2.27125% | 44751 | 2.086% | 40548 | 2.346% |

    1850 "1337" stats (May 2013)
    | 63 | Abomasnow | 2.16783% | 44751 | 2.086% | 40548 | 2.346% |

    As we can see, Abomasnow isn't high up enough for it to be considered a primary threat to this team, which means the odds of meeting an Abomasnow is somewhat on the low side. Furthermore, as teambuilding goes along, we are most likely going to add Pokemon that serve that can counter Abomasnow (many Pokemon that can counter top tier threats such as Terrakion and Steel-types can also handle Abomasnow)

    Starmie
    Also a big threat to Lando-T. This is less of a threat due to the Scarf Rotom on our team. Even though he is fat, he isn't slow. 220 Speed EVs with a Choice Scarf brings Rotom-W's speed up to 395, which is more than enough to outspeed and heavily damage Starmie with a Volt Switch, especially with hazards down. iirc, Thunderbolt shouldn't do too much to this Rotom-W (please correct me if I'm wrong), making it a strong counter to Starmie.

    Agility Thund-T
    Okay. So this is a legitimate threat, even though Thund-T is like 30~ in usage, but he's still a bit of a specific threat that should be answered later in the team-building process.

    Basically, 3rd pick is basically another blanket pick that covers the other unchecked threats. Rotom-W covers Rain and walls in general pretty well, not to also mention check Landorus-I pretty well. Lando-T itself covers Fighting-types pretty well bar a few choice ones such as Breloom. What we need to cover now is Dragons and Terrakion-ish. Mienshao doesn't really come close to offensively pressuring the Dragons and Terrakion. In a 1 v 1 situation, some dragons and Terrakion will KO Mienshao (regarding either typing, smart switch-in, or pure speed altogether). Using Scarf Mienshao as your blanket cover is a bit of a gambit and requires big predictions (high risk, high reward). Make a good prediction, and you put your team in a huge, HUGE advantage. Make a bad prediction, and you hurt your chances of winning that battle greatly. So at this stage, we are trying to optimize checking coverage without increase the risk factor.
    You say we're trying to find ways to cover those threats and more, and yet Ferrothorn which you agreed to falls to Thundy-T, and your Skarmory falls to Thundy-T AND Starmie, which is definitely not helping to check those threats.




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    He's mostly saying that if we want to check those threats at this stage, with this specific nomination round, mienshao is NOT the poke to go to. for one, its extremely hard to switch in, without excellent prediction. let me remind everyone again that a CCAT is normally used to help newer players get accustomed to teambuilding processes and battling in general, and forcing them to use a team that relies heavily on prediction to win is not a good idea. the majority of our intended audience is probably going to be newer players. at least, this is my opinion and how i think a ccat should work.

    now, ferrothorn, roserade, and skarmory were not suggested to counter/check those pokemon you listed. as an offensive team, spikes really help, especially when we're forcing switches. just because its offense doesnt mean we cant branch out to an obscure subcategory of offense, lol. bulky offense is still offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skamory7 View Post
    You say we're trying to find ways to cover those threats and more, and yet Ferrothorn which you agreed to falls to Thundy-T, and your Skarmory falls to Thundy-T AND Starmie, which is definitely not helping to check those threats.
    Note how I use blanket cover, not specific checks. I don't know how others do it, but this is how my team priority checklist goes.

    1) Rain

    2) Landorus

    3) Fighting Types

    4) Dragon Types

    5) Stall/Bulky teams

    6) Clean-up (specific threats such as Thund-T and Starmie)

    As you can see, the first 3 members should really just cover the first five. The last 3 members should just be specific clean-up objectives. With Rotom-W and Lando-T down, we have Rain, Fighting-types, Stall/Bulky teams, and Landorus covered (the last one's a bit iffy). We now need a 3rd member who can cover dragons, which is usually a Steel-type or someone who is really fat like Slowbro or Cresselia. I'm not saying your Mienshao is bad, but picking anything that can't handle Dragons well isn't very helpful atm. You never know, we might bring your Mienshao back into the selection pool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Crazy Russian™ View Post
    He's mostly saying that if we want to check those threats at this stage, with this specific nomination round, mienshao is NOT the poke to go to. for one, its extremely hard to switch in, without excellent prediction. let me remind everyone again that a CCAT is normally used to help newer players get accustomed to teambuilding processes and battling in general, and forcing them to use a team that relies heavily on prediction to win is not a good idea. the majority of our intended audience is probably going to be newer players. at least, this is my opinion and how i think a ccat should work.
    ^ This let's just stop arguing and vote for Heracross
    Quote Originally Posted by That Crazy Russian™ View Post
    now, ferrothorn, roserade, and skarmory were not suggested to counter/check those pokemon you listed. as an offensive team, spikes really help, especially when we're forcing switches. just because its offense doesnt mean we cant branch out to an obscure subcategory of offense, lol. bulky offense is still offense.
    Out of these, the only one I would consider on the team is Custap Skarmory, and Roserade if we're desperate since it can maintain offensive pressure, unlike Ferrothorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrail View Post
    ^ This let's just stop arguing and vote for Heracross

    Out of these, the only one I would consider on the team is Custap Skarmory, and Roserade if we're desperate since it can maintain offensive pressure, unlike Ferrothorn.
    rocky helmet + iron barbs does relatively enough damage to Outrage spammers and other physical stuff to conserve "offensive" momentum while still maintaining its defensive strength. the only problem i have with custap bird is that it dies way too quickly to serve as a strong check against dragons

    its either that or we're thinking two completely different takes on offense
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    rocky helmet + iron barbs does relatively enough damage to Outrage spammers and other physical stuff to conserve "offensive" momentum while still maintaining its defensive strength. the only problem i have with custap bird is that it dies way too quickly to serve as a strong check against dragons

    its either that or we're thinking two completely different takes on offense
    Custap isn't meant to take on Dragons. Its meant to get Rocks and at least one layer of Spikes up in the very beginning of the game, or mid-game if the team has a spinner.

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    I think mienshao is the best choice so far but I honestly don't think we have found the perfect fit yet.
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    Going to defend Heatran, as I think it is the most reliable contender for the third spot.

    First of all, I agree that air balloon may sound stupid if we already have 2 ground immunities. However, AB isn't only useful for switching into a predicted ground attack. AB can also be very usefull to wall certain pokemon such as SubToxic Gliscor (who really threatens our team, stalling out Rotom-w's Hydro Pump) and Hippowdon. Other useful uses are beating Garchomp 1 vs 1, forcing Landorus to rely on Focus Miss to defeat it (only do this if anything else fails, of course), countering Dragonite/Salamence carrying Earthquake and of course its spike immunity. I can however see your point about AB being redundant. Though this is where leftovers/life orb come in. With leftovers, Heatran has a much easier time staying alive. The calcs below also show that. Life orb gives you a lot of power, as LO Earth power 2HKO's the most specially defensive Tyranitar. LO HP ice deals 67.44 - 79.4% to standard Latios and 48.62 - 57.14% to Latias, which means Heatran 2HKO's one of the best special sponges of the tier.

    And to the person who said Heatran can't take outrages well (these are assuming lefties are held):
    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 96-113 (29.72 - 34.98%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 452-532 (136.55 - 160.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 105-123 (32.5 - 38.08%) -- 1.46% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 168-198 (52.01 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, guaranteed OHKO if Multiscale is inactive.
    +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (48.29 - 57.27%) -- 46.48% chance to 2HKO
    See? So basically, even if Heatran switches into Dragonite on the DD AND Multiscale is still intact (which you shouldn't let it do anyway), Heatran still wins more than 50% of the time. Something Ferro or Forre can't say, as Dragonite often carries Fire Punch (+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 372-440 (105.68 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

    In the end, I prefer the leftovers as it is your only form of recovery, and Heatran still has plenty of power. Heatran IMO is a more reliable check to dragons than Ferro, as Fire punch is more common on Dragonite than Earthquake. (moveset statistics from smogon: Fire Punch 49.930% and Earthquake 36.677%)

    So, bring on your counterarguments
        Spoiler:- DD stuff:



  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Potato View Post
    I think mienshao is the best choice so far but I honestly don't think we have found the perfect fit yet.
    You are now my new favorite person.

    Quote Originally Posted by treeckotrainer View Post
    Going to defend Heatran, as I think it is the most reliable contender for the third spot.

    First of all, I agree that air balloon may sound stupid if we already have 2 ground immunities. However, AB isn't only useful for switching into a predicted ground attack. AB can also be very usefull to wall certain pokemon such as SubToxic Gliscor (who really threatens our team, stalling out Rotom-w's Hydro Pump) and Hippowdon. Other useful uses are beating Garchomp 1 vs 1, forcing Landorus to rely on Focus Miss to defeat it (only do this if anything else fails, of course), countering Dragonite/Salamence carrying Earthquake and of course its spike immunity. I can however see your point about AB being redundant. Though this is where leftovers/life orb come in. With leftovers, Heatran has a much easier time staying alive. The calcs below also show that. Life orb gives you a lot of power, as LO Earth power 2HKO's the most specially defensive Tyranitar. LO HP ice deals 67.44 - 79.4% to standard Latios and 48.62 - 57.14% to Latias, which means Heatran 2HKO's one of the best special sponges of the tier.

    And to the person who said Heatran can't take outrages well (these are assuming lefties are held):
    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 96-113 (29.72 - 34.98%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 452-532 (136.55 - 160.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 105-123 (32.5 - 38.08%) -- 1.46% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 168-198 (52.01 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, guaranteed OHKO if Multiscale is inactive.
    +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (48.29 - 57.27%) -- 46.48% chance to 2HKO
    See? So basically, even if Heatran switches into Dragonite on the DD AND Multiscale is still intact (which you shouldn't let it do anyway), Heatran still wins more than 50% of the time. Something Ferro or Forre can't say, as Dragonite often carries Fire Punch (+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 372-440 (105.68 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

    In the end, I prefer the leftovers as it is your only form of recovery, and Heatran still has plenty of power. Heatran IMO is a more reliable check to dragons than Ferro, as Fire punch is more common on Dragonite than Earthquake. (moveset statistics from smogon: Fire Punch 49.930% and Earthquake 36.677%)

    So, bring on your counterarguments
    Heatran makes this team even more weak to Starmie and Thundurus-T, as well as the not-so-seen Abomasnow.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Skamory7 View Post

    Heatran makes this team even more weak to Starmie and Thundurus-T, as well as the not-so-seen Abomasnow.
    How is Heatran weak to Abomasnow?
        Spoiler:- DD stuff:



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    Quote Originally Posted by treeckotrainer View Post
    How is Heatran weak to Abomasnow?
    Earthquake maybe?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Skamory7 View Post
    Earthquake maybe?
    Heatran outspeeds easily, unless you see the extremely rare Scarfsnow.

    And I'm really not seeing Mienshao working well. It dies in one shot to pretty much any priority move, it really can't even switch into any attack without losing over 50% of its health, which in turn can lead to very tricky situations, its outsped by many other scarfed fighting types in the tier (Heracross resists Terrakion and Keldeo's fighting moves making this less of a problem). It also makes Breloom even more annoying for us. And I don't even think it OHKO's Starmie with U-turn with rocks on the field. And as for Thundurus-T, he really isn't that hard to counter/check, so I feel it can be addressed later. It also can't set up an Agility on any member of our team.
    Last edited by Sparkbeat; 7th June 2013 at 5:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrail View Post
    Heatran outspeeds easily, unless you see the extremely rare Scarfsnow.

    And I'm really not seeing Mienshao working well. It dies in one shot to pretty much any priority move, it really can't even switch into any attack without losing over 50% of its health, which in turn can lead to very tricky situations, its outsped by many other scarfed fighting types in the tier (Heracross resists Terrakion and Keldeo's fighting moves making this less of a problem). It also makes Breloom even more annoying for us. And I don't even think it OHKO's Starmie with U-turn with rocks on the field. And as for Thundurus-T, he really isn't that hard to counter/check, so I feel it can be addressed later. It also can't set up an Agility on any member of our team.
    Oh well I always use ScarfSnow, lol. And as for Thundy-T, it can KO those two before it sets up agility. But, okay then.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Skamory7 View Post
    Oh well I always use ScarfSnow, lol. And as for Thundy-T, it can KO those two before it sets up agility. But, okay then.
    Iirc, Heatran outspeeds the bulky agility set without out a boost, and Scarfcross most certainly outspeeds him without a boost.

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    heatran is a good choice, though i think that ferrothorn or roserade is the better choice. heatran just fails against the rain-dominated metagame to really help. ferrothorn is probably better, as it counters dragons very effectively, and it sets up spikes, which i think is the most important thing right now. is spikes. i like roserade though, as it keeps offensive pressure, checks/counters scarf keldeo, and sets up spikes very easily.

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    Just because Potato (i think) mentioned it.

    Skarmory @ Custap Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    Nature: Jolly (+ Spe, - SpAtt)
    252 Att / 4 Def/ 252 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Brave Bird
    - Taunt

    If you really hat having this team move toward Bulky Offense, this works kinda better. This thing almost always guarantees a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock and has many set up opportunities.

    I seriously don't know how to describe this guy so whoever suggested this please elaborate on this :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Just because Potato (i think) mentioned it.

    Skarmory @ Custap Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    Nature: Jolly (+ Spe, - SpAtt)
    252 Att / 4 Def/ 252 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Brave Bird
    - Taunt

    If you really hat having this team move toward Bulky Offense, this works kinda better. This thing almost always guarantees a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock and has many set up opportunities.

    I seriously don't know how to describe this guy so whoever suggested this please elaborate on this :/
    Yeah, thats literally it lol.

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    I'm still going to stand by Scizor because makes an excellent pairing with rotom-w and landorus-t, resisting both grass and ice. Its weaknesses are handled well by the other two, and in turn, scizor removes bulky psychics and sweepers like celebi and latios respectively. I think CedOmega is right, CB is the logical choice of item because it doesn't require a turn to set up and it can ohko the following threats with bullet punch: mamoswine, gengar, mienshao, terrakion, kyurem, weavile, abomasnow, tyranitar, etc. it also 2hkos most dragons except dragonite and can severely weaken most walls. It alsoSo i'd like to nominate CB scizor instead:

    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - U-turn
    - Pursuit/Quick Attack
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower

    *However, I think occa berry should still be considered. It could be kind of gimmicky but i think in the current metagame, it's bound to get a few surprise kills.With occa berry, it's guaranteed to survive pretty much any hp fire outside of the sun and proceed to set up. But i haven't personally used it before, so I cant exactly say how effective it would be...

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