Right now, what the team needs really is a blanket cover for Dragons and a setter for hazards. Heatran technically can do this, but without bulk investment and Leftovers, it can't take repeated bashings from STAB Outrages. Furthermore, The use of Air Balloon is kind of redundant with Lando-T and Rotom-W, both of which get Levitate. To be honest, Air Balloon Heatran works well with Pokemon who are susceptible to an Earthquake. Considering neither of the members so far are even hurt by Earthquake, AB Heatran's effectiveness diminishes greatly.
Magnezone's in the same boat, but this time he offers less than Heatran does. The team so far isn't walled that hard by Steels currently. A +2 Landorus-T can pub-stomp Jirachi and non-AB Heatran and 2HKO some Forretresses and Ferrothorns. Rotom-W hits Skarmory pretty hard with Volt Switch. Besides, Contrail's Fat Scarf Rotom-W fills in a similar role to Magnezone's (shutting down walls), making Magnezone's trapping abilities all the more redundant.
Mienshao feels a bit out of place. It doesn't address Dragon threats or Hazard needs. Heck, it doesn't even outspeed the tier's most common Scarfers, Terrakion and Keldeo. I don't want to sound rash or anything, but Mienshao really doesn't have a place on this team .
Well here's my two cents. It's probably not going to be very popular, but whatevs.
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Nature: Impish (+ Def, - Sp. Att)
224 HP/252 Def/ 32 Spe
- Spikes/Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird
It does the same thing as the Ferrothorn above, but much less offensively based. The only reason I submitted Skarmory is because it can better deal with non-Banded versions of Terrakions as well as deal with set-up sweepers better (SD Terrakion, DD Salamence, SD Garchomp).
You say Mienshao is too offensive, yet what is the playstyle of the team? Offense.
Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie / Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Sleep Talk
This guy is extremely nice for either wearing down Landorus-T's checks and counters, as well as sweeping after Landorus-T has worn down the opposing team. Scarf is to allow it to outspeed non-scarfed Lati@s, Keldeo, and +1 Dragonite. He also handles Breloom well, who can be problematic, as we aren't running a defensive Landorus-T. Close Combat and Megahorn are two extremely powerful STAB moves, Stone Edge hits Flying types, and Sleep Talk ensures he can handle Breloom, and gives us someone to absorb sleep. I prefer Moxie over guts since it increases his sweeping capability, but if we find we desperately need a status absorber, we can go Guts. He also has very nice synergy with Rotom-W, with Psychic attacks being the only thing that can be annoying for the two. Overall, this guy gives us a solid revenger killer, and allows us to wear down Landorus-T's checks and counters. He can also do late game cleanup well, or can be a status absorber. Imo, the best option for the team.
Right now, I kind of see the team move towards a more Bulky Offense team rather than a pure offense one. Bulky Offense is playstyle in which members are able to tank hits and dish damage out both effectively. Granted that definition is cut-and-dry and we can have many exceptions to this rule, Mienshao certainly cannot switch in safely on most moves (probably except Dark moves).
Putting this argument about Offense/Bulky Offense aside, Mienshao doesn't really help the team in a big way, as I said previously.
Sorry if I made my argument sound as if we were building a Stall team. I just think that, considering the members on our team currently, we can definitely attempt to take this team out of the pure offensive realm and move it on a more bulky offensive track, as decided by Contrail's Fat Rotom.
I carefully looked over your description regarding top threats to the team (most of which are legitimate).
I see your point since Ice Shard + Wood Hammer completely craps over these team members. However, looking through the usage stats, I find this:
Regular stats (May 2013)
| 57 | Abomasnow | 2.27125% | 44751 | 2.086% | 40548 | 2.346% |
1850 "1337" stats (May 2013)
| 63 | Abomasnow | 2.16783% | 44751 | 2.086% | 40548 | 2.346% |
As we can see, Abomasnow isn't high up enough for it to be considered a primary threat to this team, which means the odds of meeting an Abomasnow is somewhat on the low side. Furthermore, as teambuilding goes along, we are most likely going to add Pokemon that serve that can counter Abomasnow (many Pokemon that can counter top tier threats such as Terrakion and Steel-types can also handle Abomasnow)
Also a big threat to Lando-T. This is less of a threat due to the Scarf Rotom on our team. Even though he is fat, he isn't slow. 220 Speed EVs with a Choice Scarf brings Rotom-W's speed up to 395, which is more than enough to outspeed and heavily damage Starmie with a Volt Switch, especially with hazards down. iirc, Thunderbolt shouldn't do too much to this Rotom-W (please correct me if I'm wrong), making it a strong counter to Starmie.
Okay. So this is a legitimate threat, even though Thund-T is like 30~ in usage, but he's still a bit of a specific threat that should be answered later in the team-building process.
Basically, 3rd pick is basically another blanket pick that covers the other unchecked threats. Rotom-W covers Rain and walls in general pretty well, not to also mention check Landorus-I pretty well. Lando-T itself covers Fighting-types pretty well bar a few choice ones such as Breloom. What we need to cover now is Dragons and Terrakion-ish. Mienshao doesn't really come close to offensively pressuring the Dragons and Terrakion. In a 1 v 1 situation, some dragons and Terrakion will KO Mienshao (regarding either typing, smart switch-in, or pure speed altogether). Using Scarf Mienshao as your blanket cover is a bit of a gambit and requires big predictions (high risk, high reward). Make a good prediction, and you put your team in a huge, HUGE advantage. Make a bad prediction, and you hurt your chances of winning that battle greatly. So at this stage, we are trying to optimize checking coverage without increase the risk factor.
He's mostly saying that if we want to check those threats at this stage, with this specific nomination round, mienshao is NOT the poke to go to. for one, its extremely hard to switch in, without excellent prediction. let me remind everyone again that a CCAT is normally used to help newer players get accustomed to teambuilding processes and battling in general, and forcing them to use a team that relies heavily on prediction to win is not a good idea. the majority of our intended audience is probably going to be newer players. at least, this is my opinion and how i think a ccat should work.
now, ferrothorn, roserade, and skarmory were not suggested to counter/check those pokemon you listed. as an offensive team, spikes really help, especially when we're forcing switches. just because its offense doesnt mean we cant branch out to an obscure subcategory of offense, lol. bulky offense is still offense.
3) Fighting Types
4) Dragon Types
5) Stall/Bulky teams
6) Clean-up (specific threats such as Thund-T and Starmie)
As you can see, the first 3 members should really just cover the first five. The last 3 members should just be specific clean-up objectives. With Rotom-W and Lando-T down, we have Rain, Fighting-types, Stall/Bulky teams, and Landorus covered (the last one's a bit iffy). We now need a 3rd member who can cover dragons, which is usually a Steel-type or someone who is really fat like Slowbro or Cresselia. I'm not saying your Mienshao is bad, but picking anything that can't handle Dragons well isn't very helpful atm. You never know, we might bring your Mienshao back into the selection pool.
its either that or we're thinking two completely different takes on offense
I think mienshao is the best choice so far but I honestly don't think we have found the perfect fit yet.
Guns don't kill people. I kill people.
Going to defend Heatran, as I think it is the most reliable contender for the third spot.
First of all, I agree that air balloon may sound stupid if we already have 2 ground immunities. However, AB isn't only useful for switching into a predicted ground attack. AB can also be very usefull to wall certain pokemon such as SubToxic Gliscor (who really threatens our team, stalling out Rotom-w's Hydro Pump) and Hippowdon. Other useful uses are beating Garchomp 1 vs 1, forcing Landorus to rely on Focus Miss to defeat it (only do this if anything else fails, of course), countering Dragonite/Salamence carrying Earthquake and of course its spike immunity. I can however see your point about AB being redundant. Though this is where leftovers/life orb come in. With leftovers, Heatran has a much easier time staying alive. The calcs below also show that. Life orb gives you a lot of power, as LO Earth power 2HKO's the most specially defensive Tyranitar. LO HP ice deals 67.44 - 79.4% to standard Latios and 48.62 - 57.14% to Latias, which means Heatran 2HKO's one of the best special sponges of the tier.
And to the person who said Heatran can't take outrages well (these are assuming lefties are held):
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 96-113 (29.72 - 34.98%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 452-532 (136.55 - 160.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 105-123 (32.5 - 38.08%) -- 1.46% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 168-198 (52.01 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, guaranteed OHKO if Multiscale is inactive.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (48.29 - 57.27%) -- 46.48% chance to 2HKO
See? So basically, even if Heatran switches into Dragonite on the DD AND Multiscale is still intact (which you shouldn't let it do anyway), Heatran still wins more than 50% of the time. Something Ferro or Forre can't say, as Dragonite often carries Fire Punch (+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 372-440 (105.68 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
In the end, I prefer the leftovers as it is your only form of recovery, and Heatran still has plenty of power. Heatran IMO is a more reliable check to dragons than Ferro, as Fire punch is more common on Dragonite than Earthquake. (moveset statistics from smogon: Fire Punch 49.930% and Earthquake 36.677%)
So, bring on your counterarguments
Spoiler:- DD stuff:
And I'm really not seeing Mienshao working well. It dies in one shot to pretty much any priority move, it really can't even switch into any attack without losing over 50% of its health, which in turn can lead to very tricky situations, its outsped by many other scarfed fighting types in the tier (Heracross resists Terrakion and Keldeo's fighting moves making this less of a problem). It also makes Breloom even more annoying for us. And I don't even think it OHKO's Starmie with U-turn with rocks on the field. And as for Thundurus-T, he really isn't that hard to counter/check, so I feel it can be addressed later. It also can't set up an Agility on any member of our team.
Last edited by Sparkbeat; 7th June 2013 at 4:39 PM.
heatran is a good choice, though i think that ferrothorn or roserade is the better choice. heatran just fails against the rain-dominated metagame to really help. ferrothorn is probably better, as it counters dragons very effectively, and it sets up spikes, which i think is the most important thing right now. is spikes. i like roserade though, as it keeps offensive pressure, checks/counters scarf keldeo, and sets up spikes very easily.
Just because Potato (i think) mentioned it.
Skarmory @ Custap Berry
Nature: Jolly (+ Spe, - SpAtt)
252 Att / 4 Def/ 252 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird
If you really hat having this team move toward Bulky Offense, this works kinda better. This thing almost always guarantees a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock and has many set up opportunities.
I seriously don't know how to describe this guy so whoever suggested this please elaborate on this :/
I'm still going to stand by Scizor because makes an excellent pairing with rotom-w and landorus-t, resisting both grass and ice. Its weaknesses are handled well by the other two, and in turn, scizor removes bulky psychics and sweepers like celebi and latios respectively. I think CedOmega is right, CB is the logical choice of item because it doesn't require a turn to set up and it can ohko the following threats with bullet punch: mamoswine, gengar, mienshao, terrakion, kyurem, weavile, abomasnow, tyranitar, etc. it also 2hkos most dragons except dragonite and can severely weaken most walls. It alsoSo i'd like to nominate CB scizor instead:
Scizor @ Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Pursuit/Quick Attack
- Bullet Punch
*However, I think occa berry should still be considered. It could be kind of gimmicky but i think in the current metagame, it's bound to get a few surprise kills.With occa berry, it's guaranteed to survive pretty much any hp fire outside of the sun and proceed to set up. But i haven't personally used it before, so I cant exactly say how effective it would be...