Bump..... We came this far; may as well finish.
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Every offensive team needs them hazards and while skarmory is good at getting up both rocks and spikes, it almost always mandates a spin blocker, which can sometimes take away from the offensive tempo of a team (cause lets face it gengar is the only good offensive spin blocker). Terrakion on the other hand only brings rocks which is a key to helping offensive teams check threats such as dragonite, scarfed salamence, agility thunderus, and volcarona. Terrakion has a further edge over skarmory in the way that he puts pressure on the opponent from turn 1, and his high speed lets him function as a solid taunter, stopping most hazard leads like garchomp and skarmory. The focus sash makes sure rocks get up or if you keep hazards off the field allows him to revenge faster threats like +1 dragonite, salamence, volcarona, thunderus, etc.
He further supports the team as its asking kyurem and kyurem b to destroy it, rotom being an easy set up bait and landorus in fear off being OHKOed, something skarmory cant do (as it dies) and heatran struggles with, in fear of earth power. Terrakion also checks hail and sand, OHKOing both ttar and snow, scares off ninetales, and can cripple politoed. Terrakion also gives us some muscle outside of landorus as well as a way to weaken steels and bait in some stuff that landorus t can set up on like jirachi.
Okay, assuming we go for Sash Lead Terrakion, which I assume we will because it is the suggestion that makes most sense for this team and a lot of people are strongly supporting it, we will promptly become extremely weak to Hydro Pump spam (Rotom can only take like, one Hydro Pump) and we will also be relatively weak to bulky grasses, mainly Celebi. Just something to think of when you provide your suggestions for the next stage.
Well if you're going to go with a dedicated lead, then why not go with something like Aerodactyl. It's pretty underrated in my opinion, as it's faster than terrakion and can also put offensive pressure. It accomplishes the same goal as sash terrak, and it has a more offensively diverse movepool, sporting fire blast, dragon claw, aerial ace, ice fang... etc.
Garchomp leads, which are fairly common, also completely counter terrakion leads, threatening with EQ and killing off terrakion with rough skin. Not to mention, breloom would now become an even bigger threat to this team. Terrakion's not a terrible choice, but really I think we can do better.
Closing this later tonight 10:00 EST.
Guns don't kill people. I kill people.
2.) Garchomp easily ohko's terrakion with EQ, and BECAUSE its slower, terrakion's sash will be broken when it attacks, because of rough skin. And if terrakion sets up rocks first? then it will still be killed the following turn after chomp breaks its sash the first turn. Taunting is the worst play because if chomp EQs, then you pretty much just wasted terrakion completely for rocks. Either way, garchomp comes out on top in every scenario.
3.) Have you actually used aerodactyl before? A suicide lead doesn't need solid defenses. It's meant to be a realiable lead that gets up stealth rock. Aero performs the job better than any other suicide lead. Not only that, it threatens out most other leads with its wide coverage. Breloom? Aerial Ace. Garchomp? Ice fang. Ferro/Forre? Fire fang. Terrakion? Earthquake. The idea is similar to custap skarm, and it's perfectly viable. Don't immediately knock a pokemon out just because you don't think its good.
Last edited by Rising Star; 10th June 2013 at 9:12 PM.
Your argument that terrakion will not ohko any breloom is also flawed as terrakion has a little more than a 33% chance to ohko breloom basically meaning if they lead breloom you should close combat to bring it down to it's potential focus sash as they either mach punch or spore (or bullet seed if their smart). You must factor in that mcdanger said it lives a mach punch because he was factoring in the focus sash he's not a moron for pete sakes. Assuming you can kill breloom that is a huge advantage as you don't have to sack something to it for sleep foughter making it basically immobile for the rest of the game. This then lets you call terrakion back as they send something to revenge kill you if they use priority or are naturally faster so that you can set up stealth rocks later and come in before rocks when your opponent sets up their own rocks.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 235-277 (89.69 - 105.72%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Your final argument about garchomp is completely misleading have you yourself ever used a lead sash terrakion? Because you would know that its essentially meant to get stealth rocks up and do some damage and then the following turn it's suppose to die. Assuming your garchomp argument we get up rocks first turn while they earthquake when then go for close combat doing a snug 60% to it therefore killing ourselves and then as Mcdanger also mentioned we simply go into landorus or rotom wash to threaten out or even suprise it with the choice scarf hydro pump. It's ok to let terrakion die it's the way that specific set is meant to be played, its suppose to be reckless. Another thing to note is that garchomp along with terrakion is one of the most common offensive stealth rockers hence if you see no other viable stealth rocker assume that chomp is going to set them up and taunt first turn as they attempt to set up rocks, then set up your own, and finally close combat to kill yourself off.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-241 (56.98 - 67.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On another note I really like the idea of lead terrak who ever thought it up kutos we should have thought of it earlier.
Im going to play devil's advocate here, and be against any suicide stealth rock lead. As eaglehawk pointed out a while back, there are two things we should be focusing on atm: spikes and the ability to take on dragon spam. dragon spam being so much offensive pressure we're basically f-ed, even with intimidate, as lando isnt bulky. ferrothorn and skarmory are our most reliable ones who fill that role the best, with my personal favorite being ferrothorn, as iron barbs and the ability to take on most keldeo is great. im not a fan of lead terrakion, just because you arent guaranteed to keep up offensive pressure, and not every person who is going to use this team is going to be offensive enough to keep pressure. if you dont keep up the pressure, your rocks are getting spun, and now youre fighting with 5 pokemon for nothing. im sorry, but i just dont think its a good addition, as not only do i not like the set, i dont think its as flexible to use for some players as other choices are. namely, the "its a team for the newbies" argument.
Are we going to vote anytime soon? theres really no point in waiting as any good sets have been posted, and we've pretty much found the general basisi for our nominations (hazard[s])
2. I ment if garchomp uses rocks, terrakion will can KO it before it does, most garchomp leads arnt threatened by terrakion, putting more pressure on the terrakion player to get rocks up, making it a fairly safe move to put up rocks with garchomp.
Lets stop this here as i believe it borders flaming which wont end good for anyone
as to contrail, yeah you can do that. but how long is it going to take for terra to get worn down? especially as common as rain is. i believe that something more stable should be added, rather than "high risk high reward". right now, at this stage, i dont believe that terra is a good fit. maybe when we actually finish the team and move on to the rmt part, ill reconsider, but sash lead terra has never been a pokemon i added mid way through, due to reasons already stated
First off, I'm not saying that yes we should definitely use Aero, I was trying to refute McDanger's previous statement that "aerodactyl is outclassed by terrakion because terrakion has 24 more base attack, better typing, and better stabs."
Let me clarify a few points...
Yes, terrakion clearly has a higher base atk, but where aero lacks in attacking power, he makes up for with higher speed and wider coverage. Its moveset can be tailored to better suit eliminating threats to our team, you don't have to include all the coverage moves that I mentioned. For example, running aerial ace for lead breloom, which is a huge threat to our team. Also, yes using taunt is logical, but I'd rather cripple their hazard setter/potential spinner immediately before they use gyro, volt switch, scald, etc. In regards to terrakion ohkoing breloom, I meant lead breloom with sash (sorry that was not clear). Finally, yes I have used sash terrakion before, and i'm not saying it's bad, i just think that if we were to use a sash lead, aero would benefit the team more. It really is dependent on the situation though, and each will be better for different scenarios so there's not right or wrong.
@McDanger: My apologies man, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I get a little defensive when "theorymon-ing ". Lead terrakion is definitely a good idea, though. No hard feelings right? :]
@CrazyRussian: Seconded... to everything you said lol
Last edited by Rising Star; 11th June 2013 at 12:47 AM.
I freaking love aerodactyl. I will vote for it if it has specs lol.
Guns don't kill people. I kill people.