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Thread: Official 6th Generation Competitive Metagame Discussion

  1. #101
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    So far this hasn't been a big deal but I`ve had to delete some post, read the rules of the thread
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post

    Klefki @ Leftovers
    Prankster - Bold
    252 Attack, 252 HP, 4 Sp. Def
    -Thunder Wave
    -Swagger
    -Substitute
    -Foul Play
    After using a Klefki in a wedlocke run, this is the set that instantly sprang to mind. Possibly using Play Rough for type coverage, but Foul Play is good against physical attackers. But yeah, in addition to being a spiker and screener, it's one of the few users of Prankster Parafusion out there. You could even run Astonish for flinch chance, or attract for even more annoyance (limited to randomness of what gender people use, though). Even Taunt or Torment work on this beast.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by MythrilZenith View Post
    After using a Klefki in a wedlocke run, this is the set that instantly sprang to mind. Possibly using Play Rough for type coverage, but Foul Play is good against physical attackers. But yeah, in addition to being a spiker and screener, it's one of the few users of Prankster Parafusion out there. You could even run Astonish for flinch chance, or attract for even more annoyance (limited to randomness of what gender people use, though). Even Taunt or Torment work on this beast.
    Attract isn't even worth considering. Klefki has access to twave, screens, taunt, toxic, swagger, torment, foul play, substitute, spikes yet you would give up one of those options for attract?


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  4. #104
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    Due of its typing and having decent immunities/resistances, torment works surprisingly well on Klefki, especially if you catch something on a switch. Klefki also might not have a problem catching switches since it's immune to poison/toxic and dragon attacks while resistant/neutral to most faster priority attacks. Most support users that rely on toxic for damage will likely switch, as well as something like physically offensive Crobats.

    It can hinder setup and wall/support users. Chances are, your opponent can't use a super effective move on you twice in a row while you can just null one of the hits with a substitute. Then after, Klefki can just work its magic with its swagger and foul play shenanigans. It's prone to taunt, but without prankster/priority moves, Klefki can fire off something first to hinder you. It's probably one of the things that will give you the most headaches in dealing with it.

  5. #105
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    Swagger Klefki is horrible. Remember SwagPard from gen. 5 OU? Remember how luck-reliant and unreliable it was? Remember how it wasn't even as good as paraflinch as a cheap strategy? Yeah, this is SwagKey. Let's play out a scenario, shall we?

    Klefki vs. whatever

    Turn 1: Your opponent switches, fearing a Thunder Wave. Klefki uses Swagger, Garchomp is confused with +2 Attack. Garchomp will either hit itself for decent damage, or kill your Klefki then and there.

    Let's say that he hits himself.

    Turn 2: Garchomp either hits himself or attacks you. The odds of it hitting itself twice in a row are roughly 20% after factoring in snap-out chances. If he snaps out, you have a +2 Garchomp that you have to deal with. Chances are Klefki is dead at this point, and you have a +2 base 130 attack monster on your hands.

    There is basically no reason to run SwagKey over SupportKey, as SupportKey can provide similar TWave support as well as dual screens and/or Spikes. Even if something like the above happens, you can get up a layer of Spikes or two, thus fulfilling Klefki's role on the team.

  6. #106
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    The set i use is:

    Klefki@Leftovers Impish
    252hp, 244def, 4sp.def, 4spe

    -Taunt
    -Thunder Wave
    -Spikes
    -Play Rough/Foul Play

    I added 4spe Evs to outspeed and shutdown 0spe Klefki with a taunt and set up while the other can't. That's how i deal with other Klefki. There's probably a better way that i'm not thinking of.


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  7. #107
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    I know it's pretty luck reliant, but so are other things like in hoping for scald to burn opponents. It can still work. When you catch something on switch in and swagger it, you can usually just setup a substitute before it hits you. Though, you can fire off either swagger/substitute first, but if you can predict a switch, you can use torment/substitute instead for expecting something to counter it.
    Again, you can setup another substitute to null one of the hits. Some opponents will switch out again in fear of hitting themselves.

    But anyway, for that Garchomp instance, if Garchomp doesn't kill your substitute while swaggered, foul play will OHKO it. You'll get a few chances while it's confused and setting up a substitute until it actually hits itself or just switches out. Foul play uses the opponent's attack stat against itself, so using it on a +2 Garchomp will certainly overkill it. You'll always go first with support moves and prankster. While under torment, it can't use earthquake twice in a row giving you leeway to set up another substitute or just flat out KO it with foul play, dragon attacks won't work, and I don't think the rare fire fang on it will do much either. Stone edge is in the same boat, being unreliable nor will it do much either.
    Last edited by Kitsuneko; 5th November 2013 at 10:40 PM.

  8. #108
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    The main issue of Swagger sets is that they are detrimental should the cards fall wrong. You really cannot compare it to Scald burns as Scald still deals damage and doesn't help the opponent any. Sure, SwagKey can win you a game or two, but all the other times your opponent will get a free +2 Attack and you have a useless Klefki on your hands. And that's ignoring the fact that Lum Berry exists.

    Torment is a very niche move that could see some use on Klefki, but our key friend already has to choose between Spikes, Reflect, Light Screen, Foul Play, Substitute, Thunder Wave, Draining Kiss, and Play Rough.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    I call nays on two of them.

    Azumarill and Togekiss are probably the top two candidates for OU fairies out there. Togekiss shuts down traditional Dragon Spam and Fighting Spam, has a crap-ton of immunities, and carries immense bulk. Honestly, I really think that Togekiss is probably the best Fairy wall at the moment.

    Azumarill is really strong right now. Besides the fact that Belly Drum + Aqua Jet is the most successful troll strategy right now, Azumarill's typing allows it to pair very nicely with some of OU's top Steel types, notably Ferrothorn (and that's it).


    Klefki definitely gets a special mention for being a very strong lead with Prankster Spikes and Prankster Screens.
    Florges has access to wish and aromatherapy though... only thing wrong with it is her physical bulk. switch her in on an aegislash? no way. But switch her in on a houndoom, clawitzer, dragalge (although you have to be faster), and you'll rule. For attacking moves, use moonblast and psychic

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneko View Post
    I know it's pretty luck reliant, but so are other things like in hoping for scald to burn opponents. It can still work. When you catch something on switch in and swagger it, you can usually just setup a substitute before it hits you. Though, you can fire off either swagger/substitute first, but if you can predict a switch, you can use torment/substitute instead for expecting something to counter it.
    Again, you can setup another substitute to null one of the hits. Some opponents will switch out again in fear of hitting themselves.

    But anyway, for that Garchomp instance, if Garchomp doesn't kill your substitute while swaggered, foul play will OHKO it. You'll get a few chances while it's confused and setting up a substitute until it actually hits itself or just switches out. Foul play uses the opponent's attack stat against itself, so using it on a +2 Garchomp will certainly overkill it. You'll always go first with support moves and prankster. While under torment, it can't use earthquake twice in a row giving you leeway to set up another substitute or just flat out KO it with foul play, dragon attacks won't work, and I don't think the rare fire fang on it will do much either. Stone edge is in the same boat, being unreliable nor will it do much either.
    Fire Fang (assuming neutral natured max Attack Garchomp) will break even 252/252+ Klefki's substitutes, but the only Garchomp I ever see running Fire Fang are either Mega Garchomps (which I don't think Klefki reliably beats anyways) or ScarfChomps, which are ruined by Torment.

    Problem is, he hasn't got the extra moveslot to carry it without forgoing either Thunder Wave, Foul Play, or Substitute, all of which are key to his strategy.


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombieoverkill12 View Post
    The set i use is:

    Klefki@Leftovers Impish
    252hp, 244def, 4sp.def, 4spe

    -Taunt
    -Thunder Wave
    -Spikes
    -Play Rough/Foul Play

    I added 4spe Evs to outspeed and shutdown 0spe Klefki with a taunt and set up while the other can't. That's how i deal with other Klefki. There's probably a better way that i'm not thinking of.
    "Thats how i deal with klefki" thats really funny because klefki doesnt even get taunt. Good job kid!

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    Last edited by Klaus™; 6th November 2013 at 2:57 AM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by EonDragonFTW View Post
    Protean Greninja is an absolute beast. It can go physical or special, or mixed, and it always has STAB
    Water Shuriken = Bye-bye subs and mach punch
    With U-turn and its speed, it can be used as a scout
    You know what else Greninja can do amazing? Lead Killer.

    Timid, 252 HP, 252 Speed, Protean
    Taunt
    Hidden Power Fire
    Spikes/ Toxic Spikes/ Toxic
    Dark Pulse/ Surf

    Taunt shuts down most leads (Aerodactyl is the only lead I can think of off-hand that Greninja doesn't outspeed) and HP Fire will destroy Steel leads like Forretress and Ferrorthorn. Dark Pulse hits those sneaky Espeon switch in's while Surf takes care of those speedy Aerodactyl's. Then you have your options of support. I personally like Spikes, but you can be more direct with Toxic or quicker set up with Toxic Spikes. I give mine Eject Button, so you can swap to a good counter after you've Taunted the lead.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesi View Post
    You know what else Greninja can do amazing? Lead Killer.

    Timid, 252 HP, 252 Speed, Protean
    Taunt
    Hidden Power Fire
    Spikes/ Toxic Spikes/ Toxic
    Dark Pulse/ Surf

    Taunt shuts down most leads (Aerodactyl is the only lead I can think of off-hand that Greninja doesn't outspeed) and HP Fire will destroy Steel leads like Forretress and Ferrorthorn. Dark Pulse hits those sneaky Espeon switch in's while Surf takes care of those speedy Aerodactyl's. Then you have your options of support. I personally like Spikes, but you can be more direct with Toxic or quicker set up with Toxic Spikes. I give mine Eject Button, so you can swap to a good counter after you've Taunted the lead.
    My protean greninja is physical instead Jolly nature, 252 evs Atk/ 252 evs Speed/ 4 evs HP
    Power-up punch (speaks for itself)
    Acrobatics (remember gen 5?)
    Dig (to troll electric types)
    Waterfall (STAB)

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Someone is in need of a Burn Heal...
    Epic contribution to this thread broseph. Your meme really owns.


    Anyways on the topic of this thread I'd say that Klefki, while not insanely effective, is definitely superior to Liepard was, as it sports a much much better typing and marginally better bulk. I think the set does have its uses and could catch players off guard, it's probably even more effective in lower tiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus View Post
    Epic contribution to this thread broseph. Your meme really owns.


    Anyways on the topic of this thread I'd say that Klefki, while not insanely effective, is definitely superior to Liepard was, as it sports a much much better typing and marginally better bulk. I think the set does have its uses and could catch players off guard, it's probably even more effective in lower tiers.
    >rats on me for not contributing
    >says the exact same thing as 3 other people


    So I'm not quite as guilty of blatant hypocrisy as you are, I'll throw out this utility Drapion set I've been paying around with a bit the past few days.


    Drapion @ Black Sludge
    Careful - Sniper / Battle Armour
    252 HP, 200 Sp. Def, 56 Attack
    -Poison Jab
    -Pursuit
    -Toxic Spikes
    -Whirlwind / Substitute / Taunt

    Pretty simple really. Poison Jab is a decent STAB to toss around at Fairys and such, and comes with a good Poison chance. Pursuit countertraps Gengars and whatnot, Toxic Spikes brings you some hazards, and the last move is a toss-up.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 6th November 2013 at 6:31 AM.


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    My protean greninja is physical instead Jolly nature, 252 evs Atk/ 252 evs Speed/ 4 evs HP
    Power-up punch (speaks for itself)
    Acrobatics (remember gen 5?)
    Dig (to troll electric types)
    Waterfall (STAB)
    No point listing Waterfall as STAB when Protean gives Greninja STAB for all of his attacks! :P

    That said, the Greninja I've been running is very similar to yours, but with Acrobatics/Waterfall/U-Turn/Rock Slide. I've trolled so many Poison, Ground & Fighting types it's unreal, and U-Turn is U-Turn.

    Power-Up Punch does seem like an interesting choice, but since Greninja has trouble surviving even neutral hits, I'm not sure he'll get that many opportunities to use it.
    EDIT: It might do well alongside Shadow Sneak, come to think of it...
    Last edited by Roughneck JB; 6th November 2013 at 10:37 AM.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roughneck JB View Post
    No point listing Waterfall as STAB when Protean gives Greninja STAB for all of his attacks! :P

    That said, the Greninja I've been running is very similar to yours, but with Acrobatics/Waterfall/U-Turn/Rock Slide. I've trolled so many Poison, Ground & Fighting types it's unreal, and U-Turn is U-Turn.

    Power-Up Punch does seem like an interesting choice, but since Greninja has trouble surviving even neutral hits, I'm not sure he'll get that many opportunities to use it.
    EDIT: It might do well alongside Shadow Sneak, come to think of it...
    Power-up Punch is just pathetically weak, and he's really not the best Pokemon to make use of the Attack boost. Greninja is best at scouting and trolling with Protean, from what I've seen. Protean is his calling card and what makes him technically impossible to hard counter, and very difficult to reliably check.


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  18. #118
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    Greninja can have any moveset it desires, so long as it learns the move.

    That screams choice user to me, since it has the speed and enough power to use any type of STAB.
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  19. #119
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    With all this talk about Kelfki, what about Mega Mawile, it's same type counterpart?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrail View Post
    Iirc, It was illegal with another common move on Togekiss, Roost if I'm not mistaken. And this Gen, or at least according to PS, it cannot learn Heal Bell outside of the Pokebank tiers. And even then, if I'm right about Heal Bell + Roost not being compatible, then it doesn't really matter.

    Yeah, my bad it isn't. So nevermind on that point.
    why would roost ever be an issue here. its a TM. you could just put it on anytime
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  21. #121
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    I'm sure this has already been brought to everyones attention, but, I realized that Dark type is now completely irrelevant. Ghost hits the exact same things for SE and damn near everything else for neutral damage. In the process of trying to stop Dragon spam, they made Ghost spam, and pretty much made dark useless. The ONLY reason to have dark anymore is for the psychic immunity. Other wise, Ghost just plain outclasses it in EVERY way now. Far better moves to abuse, better to spam, and two very helpful immunities.

    It's really unfortunate. . .
    Umbreon will drop in usage, same with Hydreigon more than likely, T-Tar is good regardless. And Darkrai has Dark Void to maintain its position.
    Sucker Punch is always good to carry, but not as coverage, it's more for priority. . .

    Maybe GF will catch it in the upcoming generations, I just hope they don't take 13 years to do so.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    I'm sure this has already been brought to everyones attention, but, I realized that Dark type is now completely irrelevant. Ghost hits the exact same things for SE and damn near everything else for neutral damage. In the process of trying to stop Dragon spam, they made Ghost spam, and pretty much made dark useless. The ONLY reason to have dark anymore is for the psychic immunity. Other wise, Ghost just plain outclasses it in EVERY way now. Far better moves to abuse, better to spam, and two very helpful immunities.

    It's really unfortunate. . .
    Umbreon will drop in usage, same with Hydreigon more than likely, T-Tar is good regardless. And Darkrai has Dark Void to maintain its position.
    Sucker Punch is always good to carry, but not as coverage, it's more for priority. . .

    Maybe GF will catch it in the upcoming generations, I just hope they don't take 13 years to do so.
    Hydreigon is still good as a Special Attacking Dragon. its one the few who can can do it well.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthzabrin View Post
    Hydreigon is still good as a Special Attacking Dragon. its one the few who can can do it well.
    Yes, he is powerful, but that's not good enough. He's not fast enough, that has always been his flaw, it's also why Lati@s out classed him in every way.
    Add having a weakness to priority Mach Punch, and that *4 weakness to Fairy and we'll see him around even less.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Power-up Punch is just pathetically weak, and he's really not the best Pokemon to make use of the Attack boost. Greninja is best at scouting and trolling with Protean, from what I've seen. Protean is his calling card and what makes him technically impossible to hard counter, and very difficult to reliably check.
    Power Up Punch is weak but its also to troll bug types that spam bug buzz/pin missile/or bug bite (scizor, im TALKING TO YOU!!)
    power-up punch is good for also trolling ghost/dark/ and rock types that do damage as well as making you flinch (rock slide)

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinksOcarina View Post
    Greninja can have any moveset it desires, so long as it learns the move.

    That screams choice user to me, since it has the speed and enough power to use any type of STAB.
    If you're running choice on greninja, you're ignoring what makes him so good. Protean. A LO or Expert Belt set (if you don't like LO damage) is far better than running choice because you can use shadow sneak to nullify Mach punch and still be able to use other moves while you cannot with choice.




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