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Thread: Aegislash Discussion Thread

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
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    Can we please stop pretending that we can predict what Aegislash is going to do? Because we can't. It's just so good at so much stuff. Mixed sets are nearly impossible to safely switch into. King's Shield + 3 attacks sets can abuse Aegislash's natural power and bulk at the same time to serve as a better tank. SD + KS sets can use Aegislash's natural bulk and King's Shield to set up multiple Swords Dances and sweep. SD + 3 attacks sets give up King's Shield for a more powerful STAB or better coverage. Double Dance sets can utilize Aegislash's defensive ability to set up both Swords Dance and Autotomize and sweep all sorts of teams with its natural power. Special Autotomize sets terrorize offensive teams that rely on things like Landorus-T to check the physical sets. The occasional Choice sets can dish out very impressive power output with the right move. The thing is, Aegislash has tons of different combinations it can run, and it's pretty fantastic at all of them. I'd say that some sets are better than others (the mixed set and King's Shield tank set are probably the best right now), but it's not just as simple as "Well, it'll probably run X moves, so I'll just slap Pokemon Y on my team and be done with it." Unless you use one of the few Pokemon like Mandibuzz who can actually shut down most Aegislash sets (if you run into one of those CB sets with Head Smash, good luck), you're not going to know whether or not you can actually beat Aegislash until it reveals its set, and there's no telling what it can do in that short span of time beforehand.
    the problem tho gibbs, is that it is very predictable. Yes it can run autotomize, yes it can run cb, etc etc. However most people are going to either run mixed or SD. A lot of the SD sets (SD +KS, SD+3 atk, KS+3 atk) are very similar in concept. They'll play very similar, with similar checks. Double dance would play similarly but just be harder to check. Mandibuzz is a good counter to it because no one would really run head smash. It can run it, yes, but it would be about as rare to see as cm keldeo was last gen.

    And wouldnt the argument youre making apply to any pokemon? (Within reason) its all good to theorymon, but not very many people are going to run cb head smash, or will run special auto set.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus™ View Post
    the problem tho gibbs, is that it is very predictable. Yes it can run autotomize, yes it can run cb, etc etc. However most people are going to either run mixed or SD. A lot of the SD sets (SD +KS, SD+3 atk, KS+3 atk) are very similar in concept. They'll play very similar, with similar checks. Double dance would play similarly but just be harder to check. Mandibuzz is a good counter to it because no one would really run head smash. It can run it, yes, but it would be about as rare to see as cm keldeo was last gen.

    And wouldnt the argument youre making apply to any pokemon? (Within reason) its all good to theorymon, but not very many people are going to run cb head smash, or will run special auto set.
    It's predictable now because ladder players are bad. I mean seriously, more people are running Gyro Ball (on a Pokemon with base 60 Spe) than Shadow Ball on the Pokebank ladder. Once people get a clue and start branching out, you'll be surprised how much variety can be achieved with this thing. Heck, the mixed set by itself is pretty unpredictable since not much switches into 252 Atk / 252+ SpA LO Aegislash's moves very easily at all. If people used it more, that alone would make it so much less predictable.

    The main reason this argument doesn't apply to that many other Pokemon is because not much else has so much variety with sets that can change how they play pretty significantly (if not a complete overhaul) with a single move change. Landorus-I and Genesect are good examples of Pokemon that sport similar variety with both special and physical movesets, but not much else is capable of doing as much stuff as Aegislash and doing it really well.

    Personally, I don't mind if ladder players want to stick with Swords Dance sets most of the time for now. It makes it that much sweeter when the opponent switches in Skarmory or Gliscor into the mixed set and gets demolished by Shadow Ball, just in time for the opponent to realize "Oh crap, that's not a SD set."
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 8th November 2013 at 5:15 AM.

  3. #78
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    another option is to run a team up with a heal pulse pokemon like latios or lucario

    swords dance
    automatize
    kings shield
    -your choice-

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus™ View Post
    the problem tho gibbs, is that it is very predictable. Yes it can run autotomize, yes it can run cb, etc etc. However most people are going to either run mixed or SD. A lot of the SD sets (SD +KS, SD+3 atk, KS+3 atk) are very similar in concept. They'll play very similar, with similar checks. Double dance would play similarly but just be harder to check. Mandibuzz is a good counter to it because no one would really run head smash. It can run it, yes, but it would be about as rare to see as cm keldeo was last gen.

    And wouldnt the argument youre making apply to any pokemon? (Within reason) its all good to theorymon, but not very many people are going to run cb head smash, or will run special auto set.
    Yes and no, the closest thing i can think of that aegislash can be compared to is infernape from DPP, that, could run a number of sets making it very unpredictable. While I do support that choice band aegislash isn't the most viable due to the steel nerf making its mixed set generally superior to what its choice band set would be, again like infernape who ran special and physical based mixed sets, as well as 2 boosting sets, and a choice scarf set, like aegislash who runs a special based mixed, 2 boosting sets, tho a choice scarf set it inferior due to its low speed, and high defense making it less viable unlike other slow scarf users such as tyranitar. While a choiced set could be viable, i`m not saying its not, i think it that they will be inferior to its current sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    another option is to run a team up with a heal pulse pokemon like latios or lucario

    swords dance
    automatize
    kings shield
    -your choice-
    I feel like automatize is overkill on a swords dance set due to shadow sneak and its bulk and ability to switch back and forth between shield and blade mode with king's shield, which is what automatize aims to avoid by outpacing everything with its new speed and KOing threats. Heal pulse also can back fire in doubles as it heals the opponent as well, which can create problems overall as it gives your opponent a chance to set up, tho uncommon outside of trick room in doubles and triples. You can use leftovers and rotate between king's shield and swords dance like singles aegislash, or run king's shield and protect over automatize to heal with leftovers, but i feel it will make your team suffer and just shooting for swords dance, and tagging aegislash with a trick roomer such as reuniclus or uxie so after it gets +2 it can sweep for 5 turns with its coverage, which also makes shadow claw a viable idea over shadow sneak.
    Last edited by McDanger; 8th November 2013 at 5:19 AM.



  5. #80

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    Yeah, just as a disclaimer, I'm not trying to make the Choice Band set out to be one of its best sets. It's not terrible, though. It does hit pretty hard with Shadow Claw and Iron Head, having the most powerful Shadow Sneak possible (without having to set up) is nice, and Head Smash is really powerful and beats stuff like the aforementioned Mandibuzz and Skarmory. It's probably Other Options material, but it's really not half bad.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 8th November 2013 at 5:22 AM.

  6. #81

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    Yeah, I've seen a few more Mandibuzz lately. It received pretty poor usage in the last stats (somewhere around .4%, IIRC), but that was also based on just 8 days of collected data. I'm pretty sure that as people start catching onto how good it is, you'll see it rise to around 3-4% usage, which might put it in OU range.

  7. #82
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    Back on topic, aegislash's unpredictability makes it hard to check, while a special based mixed set can be walled by tanks such as goodra, goodra has trouble stopping swords dance aegislash, and the same is reversed for landorus therian. As i said above, mandibuzz is aegislash's only true counter, resisting shadow sneak, shadow ball, and with its physical defensive set, doesn't take a lot from sacred sword, while aegislash is 2hkoed in shield mode, iirc, by foul play, OHKOed if it swords dances, and can roost to heal off damage, tho it makes it more vulnerable to sacred sword due to it losing its flying typing.
    Last edited by McDanger; 10th November 2013 at 5:18 PM.



  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger View Post
    This may come off harsh, but link and wifi battles are bad, due to people needing to grind up everything, makes their teams slower to adapt and create a meta, while servers allow the meta to change every few weeks with new stuff trending, and example was in BW with the landorus-keldeo-ttar core, which lead to gyarados trending, which lead to a rise in hp electric keldeo. I fully support people battling whatever way they want, but the meta is generally more extensive on servers like PO and PS, plus its easier to test new stuff there than wifi.
    I always compare that to a simulation vs the real thing. If you can train a core group of twenty pokemon for wifi battles to use you are already ahead of the curb on things. Using Pokemon Online to crunch numbers and test out teams is fine, but you lose the part about the game that is fun.

    And for the record, I am training a Mandibuzz now because I want to see how it does in the field. A field run rampant with ghosts. and Aegislash. I think every fight I have been in has had some variant of him on there, primarily physical attackers though interestingly enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Yeah, I've seen a few more Mandibuzz lately. It received pretty poor usage in the last stats (somewhere around .4%, IIRC), but that was also based on just 8 days of collected data. I'm pretty sure that as people start catching onto how good it is, you'll see it rise to around 3-4% usage, which might put it in OU range.
    Mandibuzz was always very useful, people neglected it because they over-value stealth rock and the focus was on weather in Black and White, something Mandibuzz didn't mesh with. As a resistant wall against ghost types when you need walls against them, her stock went up.
    Last edited by LinksOcarina; 8th November 2013 at 6:06 PM.
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  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinksOcarina View Post
    Mandibuzz was always very useful, people neglected it because they over-value stealth rock and the focus was on weather in Black and White, something Mandibuzz didn't mesh with. As a resistant wall against ghost types when you need walls against them, her stock went up.
    The buff to Overcoat in Gen 6 was a nice addition as well. Powders may not be the most common thing in the world but an immunity to Spore and Sleep Powder is a welcome little improvement.

    But I digress. It's not only her resistance against Ghost types, but the neutrality to fighting which helped seal the deal, given that fighting type moves have phenomenal complementary coverage alongside Ghost. Base 80 speed isn't bad for a wall, either, so not only can it switch in with relative ease, but also force Aegislash out with the threat of Foul Play due to outspeeding it and not minding Shadow Sneak.
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    What about Drapion? Like Mandibuzz, he resists Ghost and takes neutral damage from Fighting, but trades some bulk for a more offensive presence (and more importantly Pursuit). I feel like the Dark/Ghost buff is going to be bringing a lot more of these obscure threats into the light.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    What about Drapion? Like Mandibuzz, he resists Ghost and takes neutral damage from Fighting, but trades some bulk for a more offensive presence (and more importantly Pursuit). I feel like the Dark/Ghost buff is going to be bringing a lot more of these obscure threats into the light.
    I could see banded drapion being a nice niche pokemon, tho its biggest disadvantage to mandibuzz is it can't handle excadrill like mandibuzz can thanks to foul play. That said, drapion does apply more offensive pressure by far, plus discourages excadrill coming in on it due to earthquake and crunch, while also pressuring mega alakazam and gengar with crunch.



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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger View Post
    I could see banded drapion being a nice niche pokemon, tho its biggest disadvantage to mandibuzz is it can't handle excadrill like mandibuzz can thanks to foul play. That said, drapion does apply more offensive pressure by far, plus discourages excadrill coming in on it due to earthquake and crunch, while also pressuring mega alakazam and gengar with crunch.
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Mandibuzz: 367-432 (86.76 - 102.12%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    (367, 369, 374, 380, 382, 387, 393, 395, 400, 406, 408, 413, 419, 421, 426, 432)

    Is there something I'm missing here? Neither of them really even check Excadrill, since Drapion is immediately OHKO'd by Earthquake and Mandibuzz is always OHKO'd by Rock Slide after Stealth Rocks, and easily outsped and 2HKO'd if Excadrill is at +0 with Sandstorm (or again, Stealth Rock) active.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Mandibuzz: 367-432 (86.76 - 102.12%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    (367, 369, 374, 380, 382, 387, 393, 395, 400, 406, 408, 413, 419, 421, 426, 432)

    Is there something I'm missing here? Neither of them really even check Excadrill, since Drapion is immediately OHKO'd by Earthquake and Mandibuzz is always OHKO'd by Rock Slide after Stealth Rocks, and easily outsped and 2HKO'd if Excadrill is at +0 with Sandstorm (or again, Stealth Rock) active.
    most mandibuzz are 252/252 impish, takes about 60% and OHKOs back, not the most reliable check but it works in a pinch



  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Mandibuzz: 367-432 (86.76 - 102.12%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    (367, 369, 374, 380, 382, 387, 393, 395, 400, 406, 408, 413, 419, 421, 426, 432)

    Is there something I'm missing here? Neither of them really even check Excadrill, since Drapion is immediately OHKO'd by Earthquake and Mandibuzz is always OHKO'd by Rock Slide after Stealth Rocks, and easily outsped and 2HKO'd if Excadrill is at +0 with Sandstorm (or again, Stealth Rock) active.
    Plus sandstorm is not guaranteed anymore, which does neuter Excadrill's speed tier heavily. Mandibuzz can also phaze him out with whirlwind then roost off damage if you give it that set, in the long run it outlasts Excadrill if it gets it out of the sand.
    Last edited by LinksOcarina; 9th November 2013 at 5:19 PM.
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  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinksOcarina View Post
    Plus sandstorm is not guaranteed anymore, which does neuter Excadrill's speed tier heavily. Mandibuzz can also phaze him out with whirlwind then roost off damage if you give it that set, in the long run it outlasts Excadrill if it gets it out of the sand.
    Excadrill generally runs mold breaker now, btw, not Sand Rush. Mold Breaker is much better in the meta now since it makes all spinblockers other than Trevenant and Gourgeist unable to switch in on Earthquake. Mandibuzz is also a kinda shitty Excadrill counter but that's another story entirely!!!!

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    i wouldnt say mandibuzz is a counter by any means but its certainly a poke that can take an attack from excadrill and retaliate well, that said its not the poke you want as your first choice to stay in while excadrill attacks, especially with its sr weak

    also i wouldnt bet on seeing any drapion in OU any time soon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus View Post
    i wouldnt say mandibuzz is a counter by any means but its certainly a poke that can take an attack from excadrill and retaliate well, that said its not the poke you want as your first choice to stay in while excadrill attacks, especially with its sr weak

    also i wouldnt bet on seeing any drapion in OU any time soon...
    We should probably save that talk for a different thread, but I would say not necessarily on Drapion either, it has potential to be a sweeper and with new changes coming into the metagame its raw power and potential for a specially defensive pivot can come into play again since it resists ghosts, psychics, darks, and is neutral to faeries and fighting types..
    Last edited by LinksOcarina; 10th November 2013 at 12:17 AM.
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  18. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinksOcarina View Post
    We should probably save that talk for a different thread
    Yeah, this has gotten a little off the topic of Aegislash, hasn't it?

    Lately my Aegislash feel naked when they don't have Shadow Sneak. It feels like they're a lot easier to check without it, most notably by Mega Gengar who otherwise traps and disposes of Aegislash when it doesn't have to worry about Shadow Sneak. Regardless of whether it's fully physical or mixed, I can't justify to myself giving up Shadow Sneak... but maybe that's just me.
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    Not really this thread is for anything involving aegislash, including its possible checks and counters

    Ya shadow sneak is really to good to give up on aegislash, especially with its low speed, as it allows it to check would be checks such as, as mentioned above, gengar, as well as lets it stop boosting pokemon like blaziken and dragonite once they set up, or finish off threats mid/late game



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    Aegislash. Oh God Aegislash. This could be a huge threat in OU gen6. Stance change, kings shield, it's an amazing pokemon if used correctly.

    I find hippowdon and Lando T both good counters, and gliscor to an extent (watch them start packing HP ice). An automimize special set can work decently too.



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    Another perfect counter in use to combat Aegislash is Mamoswine. It out-speeds it on any day (except if Aegislash has a choice scarf and has max Speed EVs.....but those arent generally put on an Aegislash). And , with a Whopping 135 base attack, Mamoswine can dish out OHKO Earthquakes as much as it wants. Technically, Earthquake doesn't make contact, preventing the stat drop from Kings shield. Mamoswine can even take a physical hit pretty well from a shadow sneak.

    Basically, any Ground pokemon with a strong Attack Stat and a Speed Stat above 75 or so, will be Aegislash's worst nightmare.

    I recommend Mamoswine, Gliscor, Garchomp, Excadrill, Krookodile, and Flygon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade33 View Post
    Another perfect counter in use to combat Aegislash is Mamoswine. It out-speeds it on any day (except if Aegislash has a choice scarf and has max Speed EVs.....but those arent generally put on an Aegislash). And , with a Whopping 135 base attack, Mamoswine can dish out OHKO Earthquakes as much as it wants. Technically, Earthquake doesn't make contact, preventing the stat drop from Kings shield. Mamoswine can even take a physical hit pretty well from a shadow sneak.

    Basically, any Ground pokemon with a strong Attack Stat and a Speed Stat above 75 or so, will be Aegislash's worst nightmare.

    I recommend Mamoswine, Gliscor, Garchomp, Excadrill, Krookodile, and Flygon.
    Diggersby as well. It oneshots Aegislash IIRC with Earthquake and nullifies Shadow Sneak




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    Neither Diggersby nor Mamoswine can switch into Sacred Sword though, so both have to be wary about getting nailed on the switch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Neither Diggersby nor Mamoswine can switch into Sacred Sword though, so both have to be wary about getting nailed on the switch.
    True.

    Are there any true hard counters to this guy in OU? I'm thinking Gliscor but I don't think it has the ability to OHKO Aegis with EQ.

    Edit: Doesn't even come close in Defense Forme Aegislash.

    0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 146-174 (45.06 - 53.7%) -- 33.98% chance to 2HKO
    (146, 146, 150, 152, 152, 156, 156, 158, 158, 162, 164, 164, 168, 168, 170, 174)

    Edit 2: Then I realize Aegislash can't touch Gliscor to save his life.

    +2 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.52%) -- possible 5HKO
    (100, 100, 102, 103, 105, 106, 106, 108, 109, 111, 112, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118)
    Last edited by MedievalMovies; 10th November 2013 at 3:46 PM. Reason: Number Crunch




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    Quote Originally Posted by MedievalMovies View Post
    True.

    Are there any true hard counters to this guy? I'm thinking Gliscor but I don't think it has the ability to OHKO Aegis with EQ.

    Edit: Doesn't even come close in Defense Forme Aegislash.

    0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 146-174 (45.06 - 53.7%) -- 33.98% chance to 2HKO
    (146, 146, 150, 152, 152, 156, 156, 158, 158, 162, 164, 164, 168, 168, 170, 174)

    Edit 2: Then I realize Aegislash can't touch Gliscor to save his life.

    +2 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.52%) -- possible 5HKO
    (100, 100, 102, 103, 105, 106, 106, 108, 109, 111, 112, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118)
    But even in Gliscor's case, Mixed Aegislash often carry HP Ice which will put the hurt on Gliscor in a hurry. It really depends on what set Aegislash is running.
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