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Thread: Aegislash Discussion Thread

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Yeah Aegislash is super-versatile. It can function as a sweeper, a wallbreaker, and a bulky pivot all on the same set.
    Which is kind of interesting when you think about it, since Aegislash's movepool isn't especially large, but it's very precise and tends to have everything it needs to succeed. Its unique (and solid) typing and ability help it in this respect as well.

    Though we'll see how much bigger its movepool gets if they ever introduce Gen 6 move tutors. But that's a matter for another day.
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    I think Swords Dance Aegislash will become less and less common because of just how good Mixed Aegislash can be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Italia View Post
    I think Swords Dance Aegislash will become less and less common because of just how good Mixed Aegislash can be.
    It has.
    Simply because of the "mixed/" set. SD Aegi is far too easily shut down. Where as, if you do get burned, you can pop off your still strong Special attacks at anything not named Blissey.
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  4. #179
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    I have a dumb question about EV training aegislash. Do the stats such as defense swap between forms? If so it would help immensely for what I am trying to do.
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  5. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladormax View Post
    I have a dumb question about EV training aegislash. Do the stats such as defense swap between forms? If so it would help immensely for what I am trying to do.
    Stance Change only swaps the base stats, so if you maximize your Aegislash's Atk EVs for example, it'll have max Atk in both forms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladormax View Post
    I have a dumb question about EV training aegislash. Do the stats such as defense swap between forms? If so it would help immensely for what I am trying to do.
    EV train HP, not Defense.

  7. #182
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    Received permission to resurrect this discussion, now that the metagame has settled down a little bit. What do you all think of Aegislash and how he affects competitive play?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miror View Post
    Received permission to resurrect this discussion, now that the metagame has settled down a little bit. What do you all think of Aegislash and how he affects competitive play?
    I think it's great. I run Mixed Aegis, and it's a fantastic wallbreaker. Latias/Latios I found is pretty common in parts of the ladder, and it's easy to bring Aegislash in on them. If the opponent switches, something gets smacked by STAB Shadow Ball. If it doesn't, the opponent just lost a Lati twin, which as a person who uses Latias on the team knows is not the best thing there is.

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    An interesting thing to note is that now that the metagame is settled down a bit, the generally-considered crappy set of SD/KS actually has some competitive merit, as it serves as a pretty good late-game sweeper once teammates have crippled or eliminated things like Hippowdon Landorus-T, Rotom, etc. Since most teams will only run one, maybe two of these on their team, it isn't hard to take the opposing team down to a point where SD Aegislash can clean up. It's especially good against offensive teams, as Aegislash has the bulk, power, and priority to take down the major offensive threats.
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    I've seen a rise of WP Aegislash as of late. But with Swords Dance over Automize.
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  11. #186

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    Nah, StanceDance is still pretty bad. There's only so much you can do with two moveslots. Shadow Sneak is still pretty weak even after a Swords Dance boost, so you're stuck with just one strong move to actually break slower opponents, which leaves Aegislash with terrible coverage issues. Fast Swords Dance + 3 Attacks sets tend to be a lot better since they can still use Shadow Sneak to break faster and frailer Pokemon and they have two slots for stronger moves to break slower opponents. They can also outspeed most defensive Pokemon due to the greater speed investment (namely uninvested Landorus-T and everything slower). StanceDance has a much easier time taking hits, sure, but Swords Dance-based sets should be less concerned with tanking hits and more concerned with sweeping, which that set has a much more difficult time doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miror View Post
    Received permission to resurrect this discussion, now that the metagame has settled down a little bit. What do you all think of Aegislash and how he affects competitive play?
    Since you left back in October, I'm guessing you haven't experienced the rise in SubToxic Aegislash. The gist of the set is King's Shield / Substitute / Toxic / Shadow Ball with max SpA investment, and it's a pretty solid set. It tanks hits well, has good neutral coverage with Shadow Ball alone, and it uses SubToxic to wear down bulkier opponents that it can't break with Shadow Ball. It's pretty good at luring in and beating things like Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, and specially defensive Hippowdon, which are otherwise pretty solid answers to Aegislash. Its a pretty good set on a lot of different playstyles, ranging from bulky offense to stall (although I personally run a more defensive spread when I run it on stall), and it pairs well with Pokemon such as Bisharp that might have trouble with some of the aformentioned threats.

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    Could we get a breakdown of the 2 current Aegislash ?


    Originally Posted by Shego

    The trending set for Aegislash atm is
    Aegislash@leftovers
    brave/quiet
    4hp/252attack/252sp attack
    -king's shield
    -shadow ball
    -shadow sneak
    -sacred sword/iron head



    Then the sub toxic

    Aegislash @ ???
    Nature
    252SpA/ ?? /??
    Ivs?? I have seen a 0 speed mentioned somewhere. Prolly not relevant here tho.
    -Substitute
    -Toxic
    -Shadow ball
    -Kings Sheild.


    I have never used Aegislash yet. But I'm curious and trying to head in that direction. Trying to figure out where to get started. I'm looking at the mixed attacker.
    Last edited by 3fiddy; 30th May 2014 at 6:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3fiddy View Post
    Could we get a breakdown of the 2 current Aegislash ?


    Originally Posted by Shego

    The trending set for Aegislash atm is
    Aegislash@leftovers
    brave/quiet
    4hp/252attack/252sp attack
    -king's shield
    -shadow ball
    -shadow sneak
    -sacred sword/iron head



    Then the sub toxic

    Aegislash @ ???
    Nature
    Ivs ?? I have seen a 0 speed mentioned somewhere. Prolly not relevant tho.
    -Substitute
    -Toxic
    -Shadow ball
    -Kings Sheild.


    I have never used Aegislash yet. But I'm curious and trying to head in that direction. Trying to figure out where to get started. I'm looking at the mixed attacker.
    As Gamefreak stated above, SubToxic is seeing alot of play as of late. there's the max special attack variant and the max special defence variant. I like fast mixed Aegislash also, for you catch stuff like tar/bisharp with sarcred sword
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  14. #189
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    I run a mixed Aegislash with Iron Head, Shadow Ball, Kings Shield and Sacred Sword. I don't see Swords Dance Aegislash now days often.
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    Honestly, Aegislash needs to be banned. The whole metagame is pretty much centralized on Aegislash (or Aegislash + Deoxys). No matter what becomes a popular Aegislash counter, Aegislash adapts very quickly and finds a way to beat those counters. The only reason some dumb set like SubToxic Aegis even exists is because of how Hippowdon grew to be one of the best checks to Mixed Aegislash. Aegislash is toxic in that right and should be banned.

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  16. #191

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    To be honest, I don't really find Aegislash to be all that broken. The main reason that it gets as much attention as it does isn't because it's an overwhelming offensive threat; it's because it offers a lot of defensive utility to teams while still offering a good bit of offense as well. Aegislash really isn't as powerful as its enormous offensive stats would make it out to be. Just to put this into perspective, Jolly Garchomp's Earthquake is ~2% more powerful than Quiet Aegislash's Shadow Ball, and that's the best STAB it has. Right now, the most common sets are the Tank and SubToxic sets, neither of which are all that dangerous for well built stall teams. For instance, bulky Charizard X can switch into the Tank sets pretty easily since it escapes the 2HKO from Shadow Ball and hits back hard with Earthquake / Fire Punch or threatens to burn Aegislash. Amoonguss checks it pretty well thanks to its good bulk, Regenerator, and Foul Play (which will always hit Blade Form due to Amoonguss's low speed). In fact, the combination of Chansey and Amoonguss pretty much shuts SubToxic sets down completely and stalls them out. The less common All Out Attacker sets are dangerous, but those always come with an opportunity cost since you give up a lot of bulk and King's Shield, which in turn costs Aegislash a lot of defensive utility. Offensive teams don't have all that much trouble with Aegislash either. Sure, it's really hard to switch into, but once in you're essentially up against a slow Pokemon with 4 common and exploitable weaknesses (although Ghost is more uncommon than the others). Bisharp is pretty common on offense as a Defog deterrent, and it just so happens to be the best Aegislash trapper in the game.

    Honestly, I still consider Aegislash to be the best Pokemon in OU right now, but it's because of the unmatched combination of offense and defense that it adds to teams rather than it being overpowered. The only time I've been truly overwhelmed by Aegislash is when it's on DeoSharp offense with ridiculous amounts of hazard support, but that honestly has less to do with Aegislash and more to do with how stupid Deoxys-D is.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 6th June 2014 at 4:49 PM.

  17. #192
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    I don't find Aegis broken.. Kings Shield doesn't benefit him too much either.
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  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    To be honest, I don't really find Aegislash to be all that broken. The main reason that it gets as much attention as it does isn't because it's an overwhelming offensive threat; it's because it offers a lot of defensive utility to teams while still offering a good bit of offense as well. Aegislash really isn't as powerful as its enormous offensive stats would make it out to be. Just to put this into perspective, Jolly Garchomp's Earthquake is ~2% more powerful than Quiet Aegislash's Shadow Ball, and that's the best STAB it has. Right now, the most common sets are the Tank and SubToxic sets, neither of which are all that dangerous for well built stall teams. For instance, bulky Charizard X can switch into the Tank sets pretty easily since it escapes the 2HKO from Shadow Ball and hits back hard with Earthquake / Fire Punch or threatens to burn Aegislash. Amoonguss checks it pretty well thanks to its good bulk, Regenerator, and Foul Play (which will always hit Blade Form due to Amoonguss's low speed). In fact, the combination of Chansey and Amoonguss pretty much shuts SubToxic sets down completely and stalls them out. The less common All Out Attacker sets are dangerous, but those always come with an opportunity cost since you give up a lot of bulk and King's Shield, which in turn costs Aegislash a lot of defensive utility. Offensive teams don't have all that much trouble with Aegislash either. Sure, it's really hard to switch into, but once in you're essentially up against a slow Pokemon with 4 common and exploitable weaknesses (although Ghost is more uncommon than the others). Bisharp is pretty common on offense as a Defog deterrent, and it just so happens to be the best Aegislash trapper in the game.

    Honestly, I still consider Aegislash to be the best Pokemon in OU right now, but it's because of the unmatched combination of offense and defense that it adds to teams rather than it being overpowered. The only time I've been truly overwhelmed by Aegislash is when it's on DeoSharp offense with ridiculous amounts of hazard support, but that honestly has less to do with Aegislash and more to do with how stupid Deoxys-D is.
    Yeah. I made a nod to Deoxys earlier, but we'll just have to see how it performs once Smogon bans Deoxys. Like you said, it could all just be the DeoSharp combination that makes Aegis a btch.
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  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Honestly, Aegislash needs to be banned. The whole metagame is pretty much centralized on Aegislash (or Aegislash + Deoxys). No matter what becomes a popular Aegislash counter, Aegislash adapts very quickly and finds a way to beat those counters. The only reason some dumb set like SubToxic Aegis even exists is because of how Hippowdon grew to be one of the best checks to Mixed Aegislash. Aegislash is toxic in that right and should be banned.

    Discuss discuss.
    While Aegislash is certainly a very good Pokemon, I don't think that it's so overcentralizing that it needs to be banned. There are many good checks to Aegislash, such as Hippodown, Heatran, Tyranitar, Charizard, and Bisharp. If Aegislash was banned, these Pokemon would still have pretty high usage anyways. In addition, Aegislash is really slow - once it attacks, it has to use King's Shield to regain is good bulk. This allows Aegislash to be revenged not only by its usual checks, but also by hard-hitting attackers such as Specs Keldeo. Finally, while sets like SubToxic help Aegislash to beat Pokemon like Hippodown, it can't outright KO Hippodown, only slowly wear it down. Hippodown and simply Whirlwind Aegislash away, even behind a Sub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Yeah. I made a nod to Deoxys earlier, but we'll just have to see how it performs once Smogon bans Deoxys. Like you said, it could all just be the DeoSharp combination that makes Aegis a btch.
    I agree that DeoSharp makes Aegislash much harder to deal with but I think it's too early to say that Smogon will ban Deoxys-D.


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    Anyone paying any attention to Weakness Policy Aegislash? I like the idea of staying in shield to take a hit, getting +2 if it's a super-effective hit, then hitting with Sacred Sword/Iron Head and finishing off with Shadow Sneak if needed. That's my staple idea of what Aegislash is as a battling poke.

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    Weakness policy aegislash was a thing early xy with its speed boosting move, but even at +2 speed its not that fast but it is powerful sweeper with shadow ball/iron head/sacred sword but you have to take a super effective hit which even in shield mode does a lot seeing as the most common one you'll take is an earthquake from Garchomp/Excadrill which hits for 60-75% iirc or knock off.



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    Quote Originally Posted by McDanger View Post
    Weakness policy aegislash was a thing early xy with its speed boosting move, but even at +2 speed its not that fast but it is powerful sweeper with shadow ball/iron head/sacred sword but you have to take a super effective hit which even in shield mode does a lot seeing as the most common one you'll take is an earthquake from Garchomp/Excadrill which hits for 60-75% iirc or knock off.
    Actually, it's even higher than that.

    252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    So the risk is pretty high even with Automize's speed, given that it puts it in range for even resisted priority like Scizor's Bullet Punch or Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack to finish it off. And that's not even considering prior damage. Weakness Policy Aegislash also suffers from 4MSS since it can never have every move it wants. To be able to not be forced out and lose its Weakness Policy boost, it wants Automize's speed. That limits it to three attacks. King's Shield may seem tempting as a panic button, and to weaken the attack stat of the aforementioned priority users, but that limits it to just 2 attacks, which, as the originally popular but highly overrated SD+KS+2 Attacks set taught us, really limits its offensive presence. 3 Attacks can work, but it leaves you vulnerable to faster threats (such as ScarfChomp), or the aforementioned priority users. You could opt for KS + 3 Attacks if you're feeling ballsy, but even in shield form, it can't really eat 2 SE attacks (unless weak ones like Mandibuzz's Knock Off), so with its low speed it's not hard to revenge kill or force out. And if you force it out for any reason, well, Weakness Policy becomes wasted.

    I'll stick to using Aegislash as a wall-breaker rather than attempting to sweep with it. I mean, Weakness Policy can work, don't get me wrong, but I kind of lump it together with Belly Drum; a very high-risk, high reward, all-or-nothing sweep attempt tool, that relies on a bit of surprise value and a bit of luck to pull off effectively.

    EDIT 07/11/14: Aegislash is officially going to be suspect tested.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 12th July 2014 at 5:02 AM.
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    Good old Aegislash is being suspected. And it's a mon that I personally don't think will go Uber, it is one the best mons in the current meta I know. But I have a few reasons why I think.
    What's good about Aegislash
    •It's got a very good 150/150 attack and sp.atk in Blade form and 150/150 in defense.
    •It's got a good variety of moves in Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, Hidden Power ect.
    •Max HP variants can take any non boosted super effective hit at least once. By boosted I mean LO,Choice Band/Specs, Calm Mind, SD, Huge Power ect.
    •HP Ice + Air Ballon can be used to check most of his common checks in the tier most specifically Gliscor and Garchomp.
    •Shadow Sneak gives priority when it comes down to the wire.
    •Steel nerf made it offensively better.
    What's bad about Aegislash
    •It's very slow
    •While it has very good offensive stats in Blade form its strongest moves only have a BP of 80 which doesn't guarenttee 2HKO's.
    •Steel nerf also made it defensively worse as now it becomes Pursuit bait for T-Tar or Scizor.
    (This isn't a negative on the Pokemon) it has a good amount of checks but very scarce amount of solid counters. Mandibuzz can only deal with the physical variant.
    •SD Aegislash is 9 months old, it's predictable, taunt weak, and isn't packing the strength of mixed or special Aegislash. Don't use it in the current meta.
    •It's not sweeping material, it needs to rely on Automize to do so and that uses a move slot.

    Now the main reason I don't see it getting banned is more due to how hyper offensive OU really is, Bisharp only fears Sacred Sword (and that's not even common anymore), sp.def invested mons can take Aegislash well like T-Tar or Hippowdon. Assault Vest is a thing too.
    Is a suspect test needed? Yes.
    Is a ban needed? Probably not, but let's see how things go.
    Last edited by TheBattleFrontierAsh1; 13th July 2014 at 5:26 PM.
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    Personally I found Aegislash to be overcentralising the current metagame, I can definitely see why its being suspected atm. However if it is indeed banned, it would mean a huge loss to almost every playstyle since Aegislash fits into every playstyle really well, and is the perfect glue for majority of teams. Its ironic how we all tried to sweep with Aegislash when it had so many better sets, mainly stallbreaker and other offensive varients. It's arguably one of the best if not the best offensive pivot in OU, definitely a great pokemon.

    I disagree with the above post, OU isn't exactly revolving around HO. When both Deo formes were banned from OU HO took a huge hit because of the lack of excellent hazard users in Deo-D/S's case and OU also lost the best revenge-killer in OU (Deo-S). Bulky Offense or Stall are now extremely viable playstyles, and both can deal with Aegislash easily given that most teams under these two playstyles usually have multiple checks to Aegislash. Sacred Sword is almost mandatory on Aegislash unless your team can deal very well with Tyranitar/Heatran/Bisharp. The problem with Aegislash is its incredible versatility and its difficult to scout what set Aegislash is running, and this is even more problematic when you factor in Aegislash's incredible offensive presence, switching the wrong check into a different Aegislash set could outright KO and cause you to lose a pokemon. King's Shield is also an excellent scouting move and should be mandatory on every set bar SD+3 attacks, the decrease in attack is great vs physical attackers such as Conkeldurr looking to use Knock Off on it. 80BP moves+150 attacking stats are still incredible, especially when it actually 2HKOes most of its better checks, here are 2 damage calcs:

    252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 231-273 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 220-259 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It is while true that Aegislash fails to KO both of these two pokemon, but you also should factor in that once they eat a Shadow Ball just to force Aegislash out, they are in no position to take another hit from Aegislash. In my experience at the top of PS and Pokemon Online's OU Ladder, Specially Defensive Hippowdon is the better counter to most of Aegislash's sets, however even that is beaten by its stallbreaking set. SD Aegislash may be 9 months old but it still functions very well as a glue to most teams, with the combination of its great bulk and useful sets of resists and immunities it doesn't find much trouble setting up a SD.

    +2 252+ Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 183-216 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Again one of Aegislash's better checks, and even that is solidly 2HKO'd by Ssneak alone after sprinkling a layer of Stealth Rock. Heatran may be one of the bulkiest pokemon in OU, but it is also notriously easy to wear down because of its lack of reliable recovery and has to take chip damage from resisted hits such as Talonflame, and it soon won't be in a good position to take on a +2 Aegislash. Agreed that SD isn't its best set, but still its a very viable and functionable set and is a great glue to most offense/balanced teams.

    Might extend my post later~
    Also if you wish to play pokemon competitively Pokemon Online is a great place to start, and while its tiers are different from Smogon, it's OU tier is relatively the same, the only difference is both Deoxys-D and S being allowed in OU atm, and Genesect currently being suspected and testbanned from OU. Definitely a cool site to check out if you wish to improve your battle skills or get into competitive battling. A link to the site should be in my signature below

    So ironic how everyone tried to sweep with Aegislash and afterward realises that it has better sets and much better wallbreaking and stallbreaking potential (and now everyone thinks SD Aegislash is garbage!)
    Last edited by VLace; 13th July 2014 at 3:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBattleFrontierAsh1 View Post
    •Steel nerf also made it defensively worse as now it becomes Pursuit bait for T-Tar or Scizor.
    Yeah, no. Aegislash is definitely not "Pursuit bait" for Tyranitar or Scizor. It's extremely common for Aegislash to carry King's Shield (no less than 87% of Aegislash carry it, depending on where on the ladder you're looking), and King's Shield makes it extremely easy to completely reverse the momentum on any Pursuit users not named Bisharp. For example, things like Scarf TTar or CB Scizor dare not try to Pursuit trap it, because if they run into King's Shield, then that -2 attack means they won't be able to reliably KO it, and thus have to switch out. Heck, suddenly you run into a pretty substantial risk; something like TTar is easily 1HKO'ed by Sacred Sword, but if you switch out, not a lot really wants to eat a Shadow Ball coming from a base 150 SpA (usually with a positive nature and maybe a Spooky Plate).

    I'll give a brief account of my opinion; I do believe Aegislash is easily the most centralizing new Pokemon introduced in Gen 6, but I don't believe it's so overcentralizing that it necessitates a ban. It's true that a single universal counter doesn't really exist (even Mandibuzz is now worn down by SubToxic), and that it can be almost impossible to switch into, but Aegislash has not been the only Pokemon able to 2HKO the entire metagame on switch-ins throughout the generations. Its typing and bulk may be phenomenal, but its HP is underwhelming and it lacks reliable recovery outside of Lefties. And its checks that get around King's Shield (non contact moves like Earthquake, Fire Blast, etc.) are not so obscure or gimmicky as things like, oh say, Rocky Helmet Garchomp was specifically for Mega Kangaskhan.

    I'll not go too deep into it, but I personally don't believe it needs to be banned. That said, I could see it happening, since there's no doubt it's easily the best and most influential new Pokemon introduced in Gen 6.
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