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Thread: Azumarill Discussion Thread

  1. #51
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    but you can use heliolisk to revenge kill (and troll) azumarill by absorbing an incoming aqua jet, hitting with t-bolt, enduring a superpower, then finishing it off... assuming they don't switch out

  2. #52
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    Again here is the problem:

    Heliolisk holding a Focus Sash just to fulfill that specific scenario is a bad investment. Not only is it incredible niche, but it relies on your opponent being dumb.

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  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by CircuitAngel View Post
    Again here is the problem:

    Heliolisk holding a Focus Sash just to fulfill that specific scenario is a bad investment. Not only is it incredible niche, but it relies on your opponent being dumb.
    It's best not to take anything he says too seriously.

    But I concur that (Mega) Venusaur is the best bet for countering Azumarill. Especially since Thick Fat on Mega Venusaur along with massive bulk means that even Ice Punch isn't going to do much. In addition, if Venusaur is carrying Sleep Powder, it can, potentially, steal momentum by crippling a switch-in if it forces Azumarill out. A much more reliable choice than Heliolisk.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmbipomMaster View Post
    I've been trying to come up with a good Azumarill set (as all my friends use Dragon types) and with my future Mega Mawile, Azumarill would be a great partner:

    Azumarill@Leftovers
    Adamant/Huge Power
    252 HP, 152 Atk, 104 SpDef
    ~Aqua Jet/Waterfall
    ~Aqua Ring
    ~Play Rough
    ~Belly Drum

    Since Mega Mawile is only weak to Fire and Ground, Azumarill is perfect for Mawile. I want to keep him alive as much as possible, so I want to Belly Drum and get all that lost HP back through Leftovers and Aqua Ring.
    This is essentially the Azumarill I'm using now, though it has slightly different EVs! Let me tell you it's working great in 3v3 on Wi-fi. I had the same mindset: Leftovers and Aqua Ring to gain back some health and help with its overall bulk. It's even riskier than just drumming alone because with this set you need at least 3 turns to get the jump on the opponent. Typically I play it out like this: Aqua Ring on the switch or on Pokemon that are trying to set up, Bellydrum and hopefully survive the next thing coming, and go for the Aqua Jet.

    It definitely takes predicting and help from teammates (Spikes, etc.) I'm thinking about getting a more diverse Azumarill because while this one is scary it takes too long to get going and could be knocked out by hard hitters before it can do much. I think it's best suited as a revenge-killer right now. There's been a lot of times where it just goes in and picks off whatever is left.

    Heliosisk is a possible check but I'm agreeing that MegaVenusaur does a lot better job. Switching in to Dry Skin absorb an Aqua Jet is nice but I've never stayed in against one unless I've already Bellydrummed and don't want to lose +6 (depending on Heliolisk's investments and held item I've survived its Thunderbolt.) MegaVenusaur has much more variety and like someone already mentioned, switching could lead to you getting put to sleep.
    Last edited by unresponsive; 22nd November 2013 at 5:17 PM.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by unresponsive View Post
    This is essentially the Azumarill I'm using now, though it has slightly different EVs! Let me tell you it's working great in 3v3 on Wi-fi. I had the same mindset: Leftovers and Aqua Ring to gain back some health and help with its overall bulk. It's even riskier than just drumming alone because with this set you need at least 3 turns to get the jump on the opponent. Typically I play it out like this: Aqua Ring on the switch or on Pokemon that are trying to set up, Bellydrum and hopefully survive the next thing coming, and go for the Aqua Jet.
    This set almost completely delegates Azumarill to late-game sweeps, and is extremely risky to set up. You would need to have checks and counters off the field to pull something like this off, and even then strong neutral attacks could easily KO. I think the riskiness of drumming isn't the best way to go on any Azumarill set not focused on coverage, because the risk is compounded and you more often end up with a fainted threat... which are useless.
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  6. #56

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    The problem with Belly Drum Azumarill isn't so much that it's bad, it's just that so many people use it as a stereotypical Belly Drum sweeper that comes in once, sets up, and tries to sweep. I've found that when you're using Belly Drum Azumarill, it's generally best to not rely on Belly Drum and to play Azumarill more like a general tank. Every once in a while, an opportunity will arise to set up Belly Drum and sweep, and then you can go for it and reap the reward. However, don't bank on sweeping with Belly Drum every time, because that's just not going to happen.

  7. #57
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    Well yeah, like I said it's even riskier to set up than just a regular Belly Drum because of how long it takes. It's really not going to last in 6on6, though I haven't tried it yet but I can pretty much tell what'll happen if I do: no one's going to give me that much time, and even if I managed a priority move faster than his base speed will take it out.

    I agree with the above poster in that drumming when you get the chance turns out nicely but otherwise don't rely on it.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by unresponsive View Post
    Switching in to Dry Skin absorb an Aqua Jet is nice but I've never stayed in against one unless I've already Bellydrummed and don't want to lose +6 (depending on Heliolisk's investments and held item I've survived its Thunderbolt.)
    So I was curious about this and I did a calc. If you are full health and Heliolisk isn't holding a life orb, you can survive a max damage roll thunderbolt every time.

    252+ SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Azumarill: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%)

    Thunder only OHKO's half the time without a LO, but who runs thunder?
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    So I was curious about this and I did a calc. If you are full health and Heliolisk isn't holding a life orb, you can survive a max damage roll thunderbolt every time.

    252+ SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Azumarill: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%)

    Thunder only OHKO's half the time without a LO, but who runs thunder?
    since all of azumarill's priority moves are ineffective (only 1 priority move... duh) heliolisk can hit with 1 thunderbolt, tank a superpower with sash, then strike again to finish the job

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    since all of azumarill's priority moves are ineffective (only 1 priority move... duh) heliolisk can hit with 1 thunderbolt, tank a superpower with sash, then strike again to finish the job
    Helioisk practically dies to anything else Azumarill pumps out thanks to its 62/52 physical defenses. Here are a few calcs:

    252 Atk EV Huge Power Neutral-natured Azumarill Play Rough w/ Life orb vs 4 HP/0 Def EV Dry Skin Helioisk: 368-432 (139-163%). Guaranteed OHKO.
    252 Atk EV Huge Power Neutral-natured Azumarill Ice Punch w/ Life orb vs 4 HP/0 Def EV Dry Skin Helioisk: 205-241 (77-91%). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    And just for the lulz:
    252 Atk EV Huge Power Neutral-natured Azumarill Superpower w/ Life orb vs 4 HP/0 Def EV Dry Skin Helioisk: 652-767 (246-290%). Guaranteed OHKO.

    And before you say "Focus Sash", can you guarantee that it will be at full health and hazards are off the field by the time it comes in on Azumarill even if you correctly predict a Water attack (Question: How much HP does Dry Skin heal when it comes on a Water attack).

    The only thing FS Helioisk is to Azumarill is a shaky check that can only win if it comes on a Water attack. Not to mention that FS on Helioisk is quite specific.
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  11. #61

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    Why don't we just stick with Timid Life Orb or Choice Specs Heliolisk, probably its best set overall?

    252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Azumarill: 359-424 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Azumarill: 414-488 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Heliolisk is a marvelous check to Azumarill when you play to its strengths. There's no need to run a gimmicky Focus Sash set.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Heliolisk is a marvelous check to Azumarill when you play to its strengths. There's no need to run a gimmicky Focus Sash set.
    But just that; a check. It may be able to switch into Aqua Jet (or Waterfall) but it is absolutely brutalized by the other coverage moves, especially if entry hazards are in the picture. Hence it can revenge kill Azumarill pretty reliably but it's not easy to switch in unless you can predict the water attack.

    ...But then again, I believe we've all pretty much come to a consensus on this fact and can agree to move on.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 26th November 2013 at 5:21 AM.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    But just that; a check. It may be able to switch into Aqua Jet (or Waterfall) but it is absolutely brutalized by the other coverage moves, especially if entry hazards are in the picture. Hence it can revenge kill Azumarill pretty reliably but it's not easy to switch in unless you can predict the water attack.

    ...But then again, I believe we've all pretty much come to a consensus on this fact and can agree to move on.
    would if you don't need to predict? as azumarill revenge kills a near death pokemon, just switch into heliolisk and OHKO azumarill with t-bolt holding choice specs just like jesusfreak94 said, or, 2HKO with thunderbolt after enduring azumarill's next attack.
    Last edited by ghost_dog97; 27th November 2013 at 2:32 AM.

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    would if you don't need to predict? as azumarill revenge kills a near death pokemon, just switch into heliolisk and OHKO azumarill with t-bolt holding choice specs, or, 2HKO with thunderbolt after enduring azumarill's next attack.
    ...If your opponent has Heliolisk, and you're going to Aqua Jet a near-death Pokemon without expecting the switch, then you deserve to have your Azumarill KO'd.

    Poor prediction does not make a Pokemon a counter. It remains a check.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 27th November 2013 at 2:37 AM.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    would if you don't need to predict? as azumarill revenge kills a near death pokemon, just switch into heliolisk and OHKO azumarill with t-bolt holding choice specs, or, 2HKO with thunderbolt after enduring azumarill's next attack.
    That's the definition of a check: Something that can revenge kill it and/or come in on a few common moves. In a perfect world where prediction didn't exist, Heliolisk would always beat Azumarill. And that's ignoring the fact that Azu can just switch out into a member of the 75% of OU that does beat Heliolisk. Heliolisk is pretty useless outside of checking Azumarill, and there's little reason to run it over Rotom-W as an azumarill check.

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  16. #66

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    ghost_dog97 is actually onto something regarding into Azumarill's Aqua Jet. Since CB Azumarill is so often used as a check to random sweepers with its powerful Aqua Jet, it'll often find itself in high-risk situations where Aqua Jet is very necessary and easier to predict, making a Heliolisk switch much safer. If your opponent's Blaziken is looking to sweep you late-game (I know Blaziken is banned, it's just an example), it's far safer to use Aqua Jet and risk giving Heliolisk a free switch-in and 25% of its health than it is to use Play Rough or Superpower and risk Blaziken killing your Azumarill and sweeping your team. Likewise, it might be far safer for the opponent to switch and risk losing Heliolisk than to keep Blaziken in and risk losing perhaps their best win condition. By analyzing the risk and reward of the scenario both players face, Heliolisk switching into Azumarill's Aqua Jet and forcing it out the next turn is a very likely and reasonable scenario.

    Let's also not forget that even you switch Azumarill out, Heliolisk might just U-turn or Volt Switch the switch-in and mess with your head even more, but I digress.

  17. #67
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    That Sub sets really is up there in the best sets. So many opprotunes to set one up and get off a hard hit.




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  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    ghost_dog97 is actually onto something regarding into Azumarill's Aqua Jet. Since CB Azumarill is so often used as a check to random sweepers with its powerful Aqua Jet, it'll often find itself in high-risk situations where Aqua Jet is very necessary and easier to predict, making a Heliolisk switch much safer. If your opponent's Blaziken is looking to sweep you late-game (I know Blaziken is banned, it's just an example), it's far safer to use Aqua Jet and risk giving Heliolisk a free switch-in and 25% of its health than it is to use Play Rough or Superpower and risk Blaziken killing your Azumarill and sweeping your team. Likewise, it might be far safer for the opponent to switch and risk losing Heliolisk than to keep Blaziken in and risk losing perhaps their best win condition. By analyzing the risk and reward of the scenario both players face, Heliolisk switching into Azumarill's Aqua Jet and forcing it out the next turn is a very likely and reasonable scenario.

    Let's also not forget that even you switch Azumarill out, Heliolisk might just U-turn or Volt Switch the switch-in and mess with your head even more, but I digress.
    Yet the extreme specificity of the example is exactly what makes Heliolisk a check rather than a hard counter. And that's pretty much what ghost_dog seemed to be suggesting, given he explicitly called Heliolisk "the only true counter to Azumarill". Even ignoring the Blaziken example (who needs to already be at +2 AND have entry hazard support or prior damage on Azumarill to guarantee a 1HKO a 252/0 Azumarill but I digress), it becomes a very specific set of circumstances where Azumarill is forced to use Aqua Jet or risk being KO'ed in such a way that Heliolisk has an almost guaranteed switch-in even accounting for prediction.

    And I believe that's where this whole conversation was going; a simple debate about whether Heliolisk checks or counters Azumarill. No one doubts that Helolisk can switch into Azumarill's water STAB, and can KO it or force it out once it's already in, but the planets don't always align so easily, and Helolisk isn't necessarily guaranteed a free switch-in.

    ...I believe we're starting to beat a dead Ponyta, though.
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  19. #69

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    Lol, that's not an extremely specific example at all. Don't like Blaziken? It could be SD Terrakion, Rock Polish Landorus-I, Double Dance Landorus-T, Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X, or literally anything else that is weak to Aqua Jet or is weak enough to die to it anyway. The point is that when you're faced with a sweeper capable of cleaning you out late-game and Azumarill's Aqua Jet is your only chance at winning, the last thing you should be concerned about is out-guessing your opponent and killing Heliolisk on the switch. Yes, Heliolisk is still just a check, but judging from his last couple of posts, I've got the feeling that even ghost_dog97 has given up justifying it as a counter and is now simply justifying it as a solid check. He's right about one thing: when your opponent is put into high-risk situations like that, it is a lot safer to switch Heliolisk directly into Azumarill than it would be otherwise.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 27th November 2013 at 6:07 PM.

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Lol, that's not an extremely specific example at all. Don't like Blaziken? It could be SD Terrakion, Rock Polish Landorus-I, Double Dance Landorus-T, Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X, or literally anything else that is weak to Aqua Jet or is weak enough to die to it anyway. The point is that when you're faced with a sweeper capable of cleaning you out late-game and Azumarill's Aqua Jet is your only chance at winning, the last thing you should be concerned about is out-guessing your opponent and killing Heliolisk on the switch. Yes, Heliolisk is still just a check, but judging from his last couple of posts, I've got the feeling that even ghost_dog97 has given up justifying it as a counter and is now simply justifying it as a solid check. He's right about one thing: when your opponent is put into high-risk situations like that, it is a lot safer to switch Heliolisk directly into Azumarill than it would be otherwise.
    I get what you're saying (though I'd leave MegaZard X out of that list since it's neutral to Aqua Jet and is only 3HKO'ed by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet without prior damage) but I feel like we're going in circles now since we're all agreeing that it checks Azumarill but doesn't outright counter it.

    The real question becomes if checking Azumarill is reason enough to justify Heliolisk over some other Pokemon, such as Rotom-W. And this is something I'm uncertain of. I mean, Heliolisk does have a nice speed tier, outrunning base 108's like Terrakion, Keldeo, and Infernape, and has some nice moves for an electric type, including U-Turn, Surf, and Glare, in addition to obvious things such as Volt Switch, Grass Knot and HP Ice. Dry Skin is also an obvious boon. However, it's frail as heck on the physical side, and faces significant competition as an electric type from Rotom-W, who is bulkier, Jolteon, who is much faster, and Thundurus-T, who packs a nuclear special attack. Being weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave does it no favors either. It may check Azumarill but I find myself wondering if that's enough to justify using it on a team. In fact, I'd say it's pretty comparable to Jolteon, as both tend to run similar sets as a fast special attackers/Volt Switcher, but I'd find myself preferring Jolteon due to its higher speed.

    Edit: And yes, I do realize that Jolteon does not check Azumarill as reliably as Heliolisk does. I'm not trying to suggest that it does. I'm merely suggesting better overall utility.

    ...But I guess the value of Heliolisk is something for another thread, not Azumarill's. It checks Azumarill. That's a fact. Nobody's arguing that. Cheers.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 27th November 2013 at 6:53 PM.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    The real question becomes if checking Azumarill is reason enough to justify Heliolisk over some other Pokemon, such as Rotom-W.
    Azumarill is a threat, but not so much of a threat to warrant carrying a counter on every team, like Mega Gengar or the pre-ban Mega Blaziken. Don't carry a Heliolisk just to counter Azu, unless you happen to use one on your team anyway. There's plenty of ways to beat it, you don't necessarily need a counter, just something you can switch into. Rotom-W is better in almost all regards.
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  22. #72
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    To be honest, people who use Azumarill as a check to fast sweepers because of Aqua Jet are just asking for Ferrothorn, Heliolisk, or a whole host of other threats to switch in and put them at a disadvantage. Azumarill's first priority should be to deal as much damage as possible to slow or bulky Pokemon with its powerful STAB's and great neutral coverage, and to take full advantage of single-turn prediction. Aqua Jet is a bonus. An awesome bonus, but it's still just what equates to DLC content; you don't buy a video game just for the downloadable extras. If you're using Azu primarily for Water-type priority (or priority in general), you are doing it wrong.

    On a different note, has anyone actually used Belly Drum Azumarill to consistent success? With all the faster priority abusers and things like Ferrothorn and Garchomp (contact damage Pokes) being so common, I'd figure it to be pretty unreliable, even late-game because of the prevalence of Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, Mega Lucario, and Mega Scizor working overtime as late-game cleaners.
    Last edited by Eon Master; 28th November 2013 at 12:38 AM.
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  23. #73
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    I've faced several Belly drum Azumarills in random single and triple battle spots. They might've played it weird or not expecting much when leading with it and against a Rotom, but they get crippled every time by it.

    I never gave an Azumarill the chance to successfully pull off its belly drum set because I always managed to trick a choice scarf onto it first, then the Azumarill belly drums. Opponents will vary I guess, but overall it just needs a bit of support and prediction to pull it off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneko View Post
    I've faced several Belly drum Azumarills in random single and triple battle spots. They might've played it weird or not expecting much when leading with it and against a Rotom, but they get crippled every time by it.

    I never gave an Azumarill the chance to successfully pull off its belly drum set because I always managed to trick a choice scarf onto it first, then the Azumarill belly drums. Opponents will vary I guess, but overall it just needs a bit of support and prediction to pull it off.
    That's because they were playing it wrong and letting you do that. Belly Drum Azumarill is frightening when played correctly, but only 10% of people actually know how to play it correctly. Treat Azumarill as a bulky tank who can Belly Drum only when the time is right. Otherwise it just ends up floundering. Everybody tends to Belly Drum as soon as they switch in, which is a big no-no. If you ever get rid of everything that really threatens Azumarill, then you can Belly Drum for a late-game sweep.

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    If you ever get rid of everything that really threatens Azumarill, then you can Belly Drum for a late-game sweep.
    But to be fair the same could also be said for 99% of sweepers.

    Not that I disagree with what you're saying, as Belly Drum should be used intelligently rather than ASAP every time. But the logic is true for all sweepers; it's just that Azumarill has to put in a big gamble on a Belly Drum set, which has the potential to backfire immensely.

    ...I've always had a love/hate relationship with Belly Drum which leads me to look elsewhere for my sweeping needs. I tend to prefer a Sub Azumarill for wall-breaking.
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