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Thread: Talonflame Discussion Thread

  1. #1
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    Default Talonflame Discussion Thread



    Stats
    78/81/71/74/69/126

    Talonflame, the new bird pokemon of the generation. Talonflame is the best of the 5 bird pokemon for each generation, due to its ability gale wing. This allows it to always have a priority as long as you use a flying stab, which allows it to get around its sub par stats (it has 1 more attack than pidgeot lol) as well as its access to swords dance. With priority roost, talonflame can get around its fire flying typing, allowing it to heal off damage from stealth rocks.

    Discuss sets, roles, partners, checks, and counters here, good comments will be added to the first post here

    Sets
    Choice Band

    Support
    defog vs rapid spin
    Last edited by McDanger; 10th November 2013 at 5:34 PM.



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    Talonflame (adamant nature)
    Gale Wings (focus sash/power herb/sharp beak)
    Ev spread: 252 atk/ 252 hp/ 4 speed
    Roost
    Acrobatics
    Swords Dance
    Brave Bird/Fly/Sky Attack

    this set makes it out to be an all or nothing attacker. sorta like a glass cannon but that's what the focus sash is for. no matter what, always use swords dance first (unless you are coming in on an entry hazard, then use roost) so you can sweep the enemy off their feet. After enduring with 1 hp or possibly more, feel free to use acrobatics as your item (focus sash) disappears to give it a 110 base power attack. brave bird is for advanced users who can get around the 1 hp danger by either switching out (not recommended b/c f the +2 atk boost) or spamming roost until they find an opening. Fly is more safer as it doesn't give off recoil when you use it. Sky Attack is for users who don't want to waste their focus sash on a talonflame. The power herb will make the sky attack become a one-turn move only once so use it sparingly. After the power herb is used up, be prepared to either switch out (recommended if not had used the focus sash) or spam priority acrobatics until it faints. The sharp beak just gives a little more umpf to your priority stab attacks so feel free to divebomb foes with brave bird all you want =)... But in all seriousness, this is one pokemon that you do not want to underestimate

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    I'll still always prefer the raw wallbusting power of Choice Band Staraptor.

    That said, priority Roost, Acrobatics, and Brave Bird is amazing. I'm actually considering a SubRoost set with this thing... If Articuno can do it, why not?


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    Talonflame@Choice Band
    Adamant
    252 attack/4 def/ 252 speed
    Gale Wing
    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -U-turn
    -Return

    While flying gem swords dance talonflame is the most common set, this set makes use of talonflames decent attack, as well as its high speed allowing it to run adamant, giving it decent enough attack. With gale wing, it allows talonflame to revenge threats with brave bird, while it uses flare blitz as a secondary stab. Return is nice as it lets talonflame take a chunk out of rotom wash, about 40-49% from the special defensive set, while u-turn lets it act as a scout with its high speed, making it nice on volt turn teams where this sets main niche is. This set does have trouble getting a spot over acrobatic talonflame, but has a niche in its higher attack the turn it comes in and lacks the need for a turn to set up, making it superior as a wall breaker or a scout, especially on a volt turn team.



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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger View Post
    Talonflame@Choice Band
    Adamant
    252 attack/4 def/ 252 speed
    Gale Wing
    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -U-turn
    -Return

    While flying gem swords dance talonflame is the most common set, this set makes use of talonflames decent attack, as well as its high speed allowing it to run adamant, giving it decent enough attack. With gale wing, it allows talonflame to revenge threats with brave bird, while it uses flare blitz as a secondary stab. Return is nice as it lets talonflame take a chunk out of rotom wash, about 40-49% from the special defensive set, while u-turn lets it act as a scout with its high speed, making it nice on volt turn teams where this sets main niche is. This set does have trouble getting a spot over acrobatic talonflame, but has a niche in its higher attack the turn it comes in and lacks the need for a turn to set up, making it superior as a wall breaker or a scout, especially on a volt turn team.
    the one problem with CB taonflame is that there are far better CB mons to use. that base 80 some atk just isnt cutting it imo. its heavily prediction reliant, as opposed to otheer smashers, like CB cube or CB avaugg, or even CB Staraptor, who can 2hko a lot more with brave bird.

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    talonflame can also be effective as a naughty or lonely nature too, but preferably adamant or jolly so you wont lowers its already frail defenses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    I'll still always prefer the raw wallbusting power of Choice Band Staraptor.

    That said, priority Roost, Acrobatics, and Brave Bird is amazing. I'm actually considering a SubRoost set with this thing... If Articuno can do it, why not?
    I say that I can agree with you in a couple ways. I usually remember the early generations and 5th gen having a bad early bird pokemon in the competitive field. Then Staraptor defied that definition in 4th generation thanks to one move that it learns: Close combat. That one move made staraptor a pretty powerful check against Rock and Ice type pokemon. With 5th Gen giving it reckless, the term "Brave Bird Everything!" was born, putting Staraptor surprisingly in Borderline last generation.

    Right now, we have Talonflame who has charizard's typing. BUT with a deadly ability in the form of Gale Wings. With Flare Blitz on its Arsenal, Ice and Steel types will have to think twice on facing this guy.

    I find the difference between the two is:
    Staraptor:
    -Higher base attack of 135. Unike Talonflame's 81 base attack
    -Passable 100 base speed for a sweeper. But it desires much more speed
    -Close Combat covers its rock and steel type counters. But it would really want a Fighting typing to replace its Part normal type
    -Reckless further proves Brave Bird's wall breaking / Sweeping potential
    -Slightly bulkier compared to Talonflame thanks to Intimidate. Giving it a little niche in the doubles field.

    Talonflame:
    -Gale Wings gives other priority attackers a fear factor that priority 120 powered brave birds will hurt more than 40 base powered priority attacks (Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, etc. Except Extremespeed)
    -Surprisingly faster than staraptor in base speed. He has like 126. Something that staraptor does not have.
    -The Acrobatics set is much more viable to it compared to staraptor
    -A priority roost gives it an edge
    -Stealth rocks cripple it harder unlike staraptor if it does not run roost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    Talonflame (adamant nature)
    Gale Wings (focus sash/power herb/sharp beak)
    Ev spread: 252 atk/ 252 hp/ 4 speed
    Roost
    Acrobatics
    Swords Dance
    Brave Bird/Fly/Sky Attack
    Nothing about this set makes any sense whatsoever. There is literally no purpose in running a focus sash with basically any of the moves listed, let alone on Talonflame at all. Fly is an awful move which should never be used, especially on something which has the main selling point of priority on all flying moves. You literally give your opponent a free chance to bring in Flying resists, most of which you don't even beat anyway since you thought it would be a good idea for some reason to not take advantage of its secondary STAB, Flare Blitz, which is the other thing which makes it good: it can beat Steel types which demolish most other birds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus™ View Post
    the one problem with CB taonflame is that there are far better CB mons to use. that base 80 some atk just isnt cutting it imo. its heavily prediction reliant, as opposed to otheer smashers, like CB cube or CB avaugg, or even CB Staraptor, who can 2hko a lot more with brave bird.
    Its true that Talonflame might be outclassed in this regard compared to just about any CB user, but its main function is as a revenge killer which it pulls off very well thanks to its ability. It might require prediction to use Flare Blitz or U-turn appropriately but the same can be said for nearly any CBer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    talonflame can also be effective as a naughty or lonely nature too, but preferably adamant or jolly so you wont lowers its already frail defenses
    How is this even relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    I'll still always prefer the raw wallbusting power of Choice Band Staraptor.

    That said, priority Roost, Acrobatics, and Brave Bird is amazing. I'm actually considering a SubRoost set with this thing... If Articuno can do it, why not?
    This thing can't really be compared to Staraptor... let alone Articuno. Its attack clearly isn't as good so its not meant to just destroy things like Staraptor, though it can actually break through some walls after a SD. I don't even know why you would think SubRoost would be a good idea on this though. It lacks Pressure, and doesn't have the defenses to survive the things it would want to stall out when Roosting.

    Quote Originally Posted by jireh the provider View Post
    I say that I can agree with you in a couple ways. I usually remember the early generations and 5th gen having a bad early bird pokemon in the competitive field. Then Staraptor defied that definition in 4th generation thanks to one move that it learns: Close combat. That one move made staraptor a pretty powerful check against Rock and Ice type pokemon. With 5th Gen giving it reckless, the term "Brave Bird Everything!" was born, putting Staraptor surprisingly in Borderline last generation.

    Right now, we have Talonflame who has charizard's typing. BUT with a deadly ability in the form of Gale Wings. With Flare Blitz on its Arsenal, Ice and Steel types will have to think twice on facing this guy.

    I find the difference between the two is:
    Staraptor:
    -Higher base attack of 135. Unike Talonflame's 81 base attack
    -Passable 100 base speed for a sweeper. But it desires much more speed
    -Close Combat covers its rock and steel type counters. But it would really want a Fighting typing to replace its Part normal type
    -Reckless further proves Brave Bird's wall breaking / Sweeping potential
    -Slightly bulkier compared to Talonflame thanks to Intimidate. Giving it a little niche in the doubles field.

    Talonflame:
    -Gale Wings gives other priority attackers a fear factor that priority 120 powered brave birds will hurt more than 40 base powered priority attacks (Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, etc. Except Extremespeed)
    -Surprisingly faster than staraptor in base speed. He has like 126. Something that staraptor does not have.
    -The Acrobatics set is much more viable to it compared to staraptor
    -A priority roost gives it an edge
    -Stealth rocks cripple it harder unlike staraptor if it does not run roost.
    I really don't see why people are so set on comparing this to Staraptor. Most comparisons in general hold no value unless both things would be used for about the same purpose (Sylveon vs Florges comes to mind) but Talonflame doesn't even fill the same role as Staraptor, or even Charizard for that matter. Staraptor's most effective use is as a CB user, but it struggles to break through most common physical walls even with CC to help it so it doesn't really work out well in OU, that and its just not fast enough to sweep reliably. Talonflame primarily revenge kills by having effectively some of the strongest priority moves around which give it solid neutral coverage, combined with the fact that the most common Flying resist (Steels) basically don't want to switch in on this thing at all unless they are Heatran. It also has enough speed to beat out most other priority users, and can even sweep late game when its checks have been sufficiently weakened.


    Right now I'd say one of the main things which lets Talonflame perform well is that its relatively easy to support. A lot of its common checks can be drawn in by other things and weakened so that it can work better later on. Its not really as bothered by hazards in a metagame where spinning is easy thanks to Excadrill beating most spin blockers. Even without that there is Defog though which makes it all to easy to incorporate things like Talonflame, which would normally be crippled by SR, into your team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post

    I don't even know why you would think SubRoost would be a good idea on this though. It lacks Pressure, and doesn't have the defenses to survive the things it would want to stall out when Roosting.
    I wasn't really, although priority Roost is nice it wouldn't work without Pressure. And those 78/71/69 defenses...

    And the only reason I brought up Staraptor is cause someone mentioned regional birds.


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    You should always go for make Speed Talonflame, if only to get around other max speed ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    You should always go for make Speed Talonflame, if only to get around other max speed ones.
    Using that logic people should run 252+ on Sableye and Klefki, if only to get around other Sableye and Klefki doing the same thing.


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    No one's going use those Pokemon to switch in and revenge kill the same.

    If I have a Talonflame, and I'm facing one. I'm going to try to beat it via speed instead of letting it damage another Pokemon. Most Talon's don't seem to running max speed, at least the ones I face so I seems like solid option. Unless you have something with Extremespeed or Sucker Punch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    No one's going use those Pokemon to switch in and revenge kill the same.

    If I have a Talonflame, and I'm facing one. I'm going to try to beat it via speed instead of letting it damage another Pokemon. Most Talon's don't seem to running max speed, at least the ones I face so I seems like solid option. Unless you have something with Extremespeed or Sucker Punch.
    Or you could be smart and try revengekilling it with something that can actually threaten it, especially if it's already set up (CB Azumarill, Rotom-W, etc. etc.)

    Just a thought.


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    I'm not sure how popular competitive double/triple battles are, but if you guys are, then Talonflame can really shine there.

    For my Talonflame, I had:
    Jolly nature @ safety goggles/leftovers
    -Tailwind
    -Fly
    -Steel wing
    -Swords dance

    I had safety goggles in a sandstorm team, and it worked relatively well in there. It also makes it immune to things like sleep/stun/spore powder moves, so there's less hindrance. Tailwind helps your teams speed a bit, especially when paired with Togekiss to make use of its flinch hax without thunder wave. I know Fly is horrible in singles, but it's actually a bit better in triple battles. There is less switching involved and your opponent can't tell which target Talonflame is going to hit. Flying attacks can hit anything on the field in triples compared to other attacks. It can also make a good lure to draw in attacks that ends up wasting your opponent's turns, while the others can work on taking out its counters. This might just be me, but I invested EVs into speed just to make sure nothing can outspeed and ruin it. I'm a bit paranoid on faster priority users and prankster sets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneko View Post
    I'm not sure how popular competitive double/triple battles are, but if you guys are, then Talonflame can really shine there.

    For my Talonflame, I had:
    Jolly nature @ safety goggles/leftovers
    -Tailwind
    -Fly
    -Steel wing
    -Swords dance

    I had safety goggles in a sandstorm team, and it worked relatively well in there. It also makes it immune to things like sleep/stun/spore powder moves, so there's less hindrance. Tailwind helps your teams speed a bit, especially when paired with Togekiss to make use of its flinch hax without thunder wave. I know Fly is horrible in singles, but it's actually a bit better in triple battles. There is less switching involved and your opponent can't tell which target Talonflame is going to hit. Flying attacks can hit anything on the field in triples compared to other attacks. It can also make a good lure to draw in attacks that ends up wasting your opponent's turns, while the others can work on taking out its counters. This might just be me, but I invested EVs into speed just to make sure nothing can outspeed and ruin it. I'm a bit paranoid on faster priority users and prankster sets.

    Ok lets talk about how wrong you are for a second. First of all sand is nerfed in this gen being only 5 turns now so its almost a waste to have that item over something such as life orb that will actually power up your attacks making you hit harder. Second, I almost puked from seeing your move set. Fly? Are we talking about in game? Fly is probably the worst flying move to use competitively in the game. Pretty much fly is a 2 turn move that is begging to put you into a bad situation. Brave Bird or Acrobatics is so much better in every way, please never request fly ever again. Second, steel wing? Steel wing does hit fairies yes but fire moves hits them decently too. Talonflame even has FLAME in its name, USE A FIRE MOVE. It gets Flare Blitz and you decide to put Steel Wing over it? I almost cried. Besides that Tailwind and Swords Dance actually aren't bad so at least you were half decent with your choices. Please think about your sets a little more, even look around at the better sets before posting so you don't keep giving McDanger heart attacks. Thank you and hope this helps at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Using that logic people should run 252+ on Sableye and Klefki, if only to get around other Sableye and Klefki doing the same thing.
    Sableye and Klefki aren't offensive Pokemon that need to outspeed as much as possibly lest they be KO'd by pretty much anything.

    Max speed Talonflame has its uses, but it's definitely a secondary option. Most Talonflame run just 60 Spe EVs with an Adamant nature to beat Jolly Excadrill and kill it off with Flare Blitz. Most everything faster can be handled well enough by a +2 Brave Bird. There are a few small reasons why max speed would be nice. It helps against CB Terrakion aiming to kill you off with Quick Attack (does around 25-30% IIRC), beats Mega Pinsir in a priority war, and lets you kill weakened Thundurus-I with Brave Bird before it paralyzes you with priority Thunder Wave as a last ditch effort to cripple you and end your sweep. Worth a mention, at the very least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneko View Post
    I'm not sure how popular competitive double/triple battles are, but if you guys are, then Talonflame can really shine there.

    For my Talonflame, I had:
    Jolly nature @ safety goggles/leftovers
    -Tailwind
    -Fly
    -Steel wing
    -Swords dance

    I had safety goggles in a sandstorm team, and it worked relatively well in there. It also makes it immune to things like sleep/stun/spore powder moves, so there's less hindrance. Tailwind helps your teams speed a bit, especially when paired with Togekiss to make use of its flinch hax without thunder wave. I know Fly is horrible in singles, but it's actually a bit better in triple battles. There is less switching involved and your opponent can't tell which target Talonflame is going to hit. Flying attacks can hit anything on the field in triples compared to other attacks. It can also make a good lure to draw in attacks that ends up wasting your opponent's turns, while the others can work on taking out its counters. This might just be me, but I invested EVs into speed just to make sure nothing can outspeed and ruin it. I'm a bit paranoid on faster priority users and prankster sets.
    Hey, I'd like to help you out with a few misconceptions. I've played a limited amount of Doubles and Triples, but Fly is still pretty bad. It's actually fairly predictable, and it really doesn't hit as hard as some of Talonflame's other options. I suggest you go ahead and run Brave Bird. Talonflame is probably not taking more than one hit or so, and thus hitting the opponent with a priority Brave Bird can be a life saver in such a fast-paced metagame as Doubles or Triples. I also recommend you go with Flare Blitz > Steel Wing. You'd be better off running something with Earthquake (like Landorus-T) to hit opposing Rock-types. Tailwind is fantastic for support, but I recommend you run the standard Protect over Swords Dance. You'll rarely find room to boost (especially with something as frail as Talonflame), and Protecting on a predicted Discharge or something can be really useful. Lastly, I recommend a different item. Leftovers is great in Singles, but in Doubles, the quick healing of the Sitrus Berry is generally more efficient since many Pokemon don't like past a couple of turns. In fact, you might even be better off running something like Life Orb for the extra power on Talonflame's attacks. Since its main niche is priority Brave Bird, Sharp Beak can also give a sizeable boost to that without adding extra recoil.

    Hope that helps!
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 7th November 2013 at 11:10 PM.

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    Sorry? That Talonflame build I had in mind was mostly for double/triples, being more of a tailwind support, staller/lure, and a revenge killer at the very least. Even though, weather is nerfed, it doesn't make it completely unusable. At least for double/triple battles, 5-8 turns can be enough to help. Its not a pure sandstorm team, but tailwind support really helps.

    I tested/tried it out during the dozens of random spot and friend triples battles with it, fly just makes it's seem really hard to target and hit. It can also go both ways with prediction as I've also noticed that sometimes, it can mess with the opponent's prediction when it knows it has fly and ends up buffing or targeting other things. Out of those battles, only a decent amount have tried to switch or tried to prevent being hit by fly (like using protect), but I was aiming at something else and ends up KOing other things. Apparently it added some pressure to make them do that.

    I already had a lot of coverage, especially stuff that are weak to fire attacks and a lot of physical/special power coming from earthquake, rocks, or at least overheat/fire blast covered on other team members, so why not?
    Last edited by Kitsuneko; 7th November 2013 at 11:40 PM.

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    Honestly, I think this thing has a shot at cementing its position in OU. Simply put, it functions as a strong late-game cleaner with Brave Bird. Some people nag and say that SR is going to be the bane of it. Frankly speaking, I don't really see how Stealth Rock will hurt it if only needs to switch in once in the entire game to do its job. Unlike Volcarona, it doesn't need to boost to be effective (though some people do run the SD sets). All it needs is the Brave Bird and sweep. I do realize that Stealth Rock will reduce the number of times Talonflame can abuse Brave Bird, but if you play to the late-game correctly, you should be only cleaning up two severely weakened Pokemon with a +1 Flying attack.

    EDIT: I just also want to know.

    AcroBat Talonflame or Brave Bird Talonflame? Just want to get a general idea of what people are thinking.
    Last edited by Eaglehawk; 8th November 2013 at 1:45 AM.
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    TalonFlames only real counter is Rotom-W
    whenever you see one in battle... SWITCH OUT NOW!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    AcroBat Talonflame or Brave Bird Talonflame? Just want to get a general idea of what people are thinking.
    Considering the fact that Flying Gem is currently obtainable, I'd run Brave Bird.

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    Everything is legal on Pokebank OU, so Flying Gem + Acrobatics on Talonflame is perfectly reasonable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Everything is legal on Pokebank OU, so Flying Gem + Acrobatics on Talonflame is perfectly reasonable.
    Items cannot be passed over through Pokebank. . .
    Technically speaking, it shouldn't be legal.

    Besides, gems only boost it by x1.3 now. . .
    That's a pretty big loss.
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    tbh acro talonflame is stronger than brave bird on showdown cause the flying gem, plus lacks the recoil, tho brave bird has more power by 10 points, its just preference really



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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger View Post
    tbh acro talonflame is stronger than brave bird on showdown cause the flying gem, plus lacks the recoil, tho brave bird has more power by 10 points, its just preference really
    THANK YOU!!!! a mod agrees with me

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    THANK YOU!!!! a mod agrees with me
    Except for the part where you suggested Sharp Beak and Acrobatics on the same set.

    And Brave Bird with Focus Sash. And Sky Attack at all.


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