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Thread: Talonflame Discussion Thread

  1. #51
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    Talony is more hit and run yah know? It has a myriad of checks and counters, so if you want to use it for sweeping,go late game. :/ I don't think Talonflame is strong enough imo, his usage will, as always depend on the other meta. Is he OU? Possibly. He is more effective at his niche than Staraptor. But... remember dem stealth rocks.

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  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amagidyne View Post
    But... remember dem stealth rocks.
    Defog Buff though. Also means Ghost types aren't the be-all, end-all means of keeping Stealth Rocks on the field. Stealth Rock is a major thorn in its side but it's not an insurmountable one.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Defog Buff though. Also means Ghost types aren't the be-all, end-all means of keeping Stealth Rocks on the field. Stealth Rock is a major thorn in its side but it's not an insurmountable one.
    Haha, at least Gen 5 comes with the means to remove Stealth Rocks. Though honestly, it feels more like a patch-up then a reconciliation.

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  4. #54
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    hello? pair up with a rapid spin starmie?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    hello? pair up with a rapid spin starmie?
    Using that logic Articuno and Charizard (the sucky old Charizard) should be at least UU.


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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Using that logic Articuno and Charizard (the sucky old Charizard) should be at least UU.
    lmao, rapid spin is the only move to get rid of entry hazards though

  7. #57
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    Calc'd Life Orb Brave Bird suicide Talonflame, some interesting results here.

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (79.33 - 93.38%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    (192, 195, 196, 199, 201, 203, 207, 208, 211, 213, 214, 217, 220, 222, 224, 226) <--- Scarf set

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 232 Def Rotom-W: 156-183 (51.48 - 60.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    (156, 157, 160, 161, 164, 165, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 175, 178, 179, 182, 183) <--- Bulky Rotom

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 263-309 (62.61 - 73.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    (263, 265, 269, 270, 274, 278, 281, 285, 286, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 305, 309)

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 194-229 (60.06 - 70.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    (194, 196, 199, 200, 203, 205, 207, 211, 212, 214, 217, 218, 221, 224, 226, 229)

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 253-298 (71.87 - 84.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    (253, 255, 259, 261, 265, 266, 270, 273, 277, 278, 282, 285, 289, 290, 294, 298)

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 539-637 (76.56 - 90.48%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    (539, 547, 554, 559, 567, 573, 578, 585, 593, 598, 604, 610, 617, 624, 629, 637)

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 274-325 (69.54 - 82.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    (274, 278, 282, 285, 289, 292, 294, 298, 302, 304, 308, 312, 313, 317, 321, 325)

    There just aren't any safe switch-ins to this thing. Pair it with a bulky Water type like Jello and some Screen/hazard support from the likes of Azelf or Klefki, and you've got a monster on your hands.

    EDIT: Carbink's calc was incorrect, used the wrong typing in the calculator. I think Carbink might be one of the few things that can switch into a +2 Talonflame, but there's not a hell of a lot he can do in return.


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  8. #58
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    Speaking of counters... I really found Golem to be the perfect one, and it fits in my team just right. While this generation he lost Sucker Punch and Fire Punch, he is still more than an anoyance to many teams.

    Golem w/ Custap Berry
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Hammer Arm
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Sturdy is always a great ability, and a Custap Berry is the surprise which usually makes your opponent rage. The attack boost of Gen 6 is much welcomed (110->120).

    Talonflame really can't scratch Golem, meaning that if you switch in you get free rocks or a powerful physical move in the face of someone.

    Anyway, any rock Pokemon can resist Talonflame. Golem is one of the few who can really retailiate and be useful for the team.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Revenger View Post
    Speaking of counters... I really found Golem to be the perfect one, and it fits in my team just right. While this generation he lost Sucker Punch and Fire Punch, he is still more than an anoyance to many teams.

    Golem w/ Custap Berry
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Hammer Arm
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Sturdy is always a great ability, and a Custap Berry is the surprise which usually makes your opponent rage. The attack boost of Gen 6 is much welcomed (110->120).

    Talonflame really can't scratch Golem, meaning that if you switch in you get free rocks or a powerful physical move in the face of someone.

    Anyway, any rock Pokemon can resist Talonflame. Golem is one of the few who can really retailiate and be useful for the team.
    Ummm.... if you want a TFlame counter just use Tyranitar. It also gets Stealth Rock, sets up irritating sandstorms, and doesn't die to a Bubble. If you're using Custap Berry (which I am 99% sure is not released yet) then you have to use it as a lead, or else these things called hazards and status destroy its Sturdy and make it die even faster to an Absorb. When you have to lead with it to be effective and you use it as an anti-meta Pokemon.... can't the opponent just lead with something that beats Golem, forcing it to switch out and become effectively useless if they can keep Rocks up?

    On topic, Talonflame is very potent currently. It wasn't as metagame-defining as Exca was during early BW, but it comes close. Every team needs a Talonflame counter on it so that it doesn't come late-game and Brave Bird everything. With the strongest priority outside of Ubers and the second strongest in Ubers, this regional bird is not to be taken lightly.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Revenger View Post
    Speaking of counters... I really found Golem to be the perfect one, and it fits in my team just right. While this generation he lost Sucker Punch and Fire Punch, he is still more than an anoyance to many teams.

    Golem w/ Custap Berry
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Hammer Arm
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Sturdy is always a great ability, and a Custap Berry is the surprise which usually makes your opponent rage. The attack boost of Gen 6 is much welcomed (110->120).

    Talonflame really can't scratch Golem, meaning that if you switch in you get free rocks or a powerful physical move in the face of someone.

    Anyway, any rock Pokemon can resist Talonflame. Golem is one of the few who can really retailiate and be useful for the team.
    Golem's kind of a liability on the rest of the team though, due to low speed, low special defense, and poor defensive typing. Tyranitar would be a better Rock type if you're looking at usefulness to the team, despite lacking Sturdy and having lower defense (though higher HP).

    Edit: Ninja'd.
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  11. #61
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    How about a golem with sturdy, rock poilsh, and weakness policy? Got swept by one on wifi.

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  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by naudna View Post
    How about a golem with sturdy, rock poilsh, and weakness policy? Got swept by one on wifi.
    Any form of priority works that strategy over. Being weak to Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave does it no favors. Things like Fake out and entry hazards can break its sturdy as well. And most common Scarf users still outspeed it after a Rock Polish.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by naudna View Post
    How about a golem with sturdy, rock poilsh, and weakness policy? Got swept by one on wifi.
    For that to work at all, you would seriously need Sucker Punch, which Golem won't get until PokeBank, otherwise any priority attack user (ironically, including Talonflame), could end your 1 HP sweep at any moment
    Last edited by Roughneck JB; 10th November 2013 at 4:41 PM.
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  14. #64
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    You guys are acting like needing to waste a moveset and a Pokemon slot on a Rapid Spinner/ Defogger is no biggie. It IS definitely an issue, regardless of whether everyone here is use to adding Starmie/ Tentacruel or whatever to their teams.

    Defog is still a rarity, the only worthwhile Defog user (one that does not take SE damage from switch) in Gen 6 is ummmm no one? Gen 5 has Shiftry (pushing it) and Scizor.

    While Gen 4 has Mew/Flygon/Empoleon from TM.

    At any rate, adding a rapid spin user forces you to compensate for it in other areas. >.>

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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amagidyne View Post
    You guys are acting like needing to waste a moveset and a Pokemon slot on a Rapid Spinner/ Defogger is no biggie. It IS definitely an issue, regardless of whether everyone here is use to adding Starmie/ Tentacruel or whatever to their teams.

    Defog is still a rarity, the only worthwhile Defog user (one that does not take SE damage from switch) in Gen 6 is ummmm no one? Gen 5 has Shiftry (pushing it) and Scizor.

    While Gen 4 has Mew/Flygon/Empoleon from TM.

    At any rate, adding a rapid spin user forces you to compensate for it in other areas. >.>
    While it's true that not many Defog users take neutral damage from SR, that's no reason not to class them as worthwhile. Mandibuzz is probably the best we can get right now, but at least she's bulky enough to come in on most neutral hits, use Defog, and Roost off the damage. With her also being a good check to many Ghosts (Aegislash in particular), and the buff to Foul Play, I'd certainly consider her...

    Flygon won't be a bad one when the time comes, either, and surely Skarmory learned it in HG/SS, too?
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  16. #66
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    The problem with rapid spinners vs defog is rapid spin can be stopped, especially with how common ghosts are now thanks to the steel nerf, and how good aegislash is. Aegislash can beat most spinners 1 v 1, only notable one that it can't is excadrill, and possible analytic starmie. This makes defog generally superior as it can't be blocked outside of taunt, and its fairly easy to fit defogger on to a team, namely mandibuzz and scizor (mega scizor generally) due to their effectiveness in the meta, as well as mentioned above, skarmory is decent, while flygon has that now as a niche as well as being the one of the only defoggers to resist stealth rocks, and the only one to resist stealth rocks to also be immune to spikes. While defog does lead to 4 move slot syndrome, to an extent, its generally good enough that its not a big deal to add it in place of a move, flygon is still a good scout with u turn, earthquake, and draco meteor, while mandibuzz loses on whirlwind/toxic/u turn depending on what you need for your team. I feel that the only spinner that really deserves a mention is excadrill due to its resistances, and ability to pressure spin blockers namely, as i said, aegislash with earthquake, while gengar doesn't want to come in in fear of rock slide, while mega gengar is vulnerable to earthquake. However, defog is basically guarantied, which generally makes it superior to rapid spin on the teams that need it, while rapid spin is better if only 1 pokemon on the team needs support.



  17. #67
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    I don't think either Rapid Spin nor Defog is better than the other. It pretty much depends on what your team needs really. I for one would NEVER use Defog. I always use multiple hazards on my team, so having a Defog user would be a total waste of the effort I put into setting up my own hazards, so I will always go for a spinner. But if your team doesn't use/need that much hazards, or is weak to them, than the reliability of Defog to get hazards of the field is a huge advantage.

    But back to Talonflame, suicide set is the best imho. It really is working wonders for me, guaranteed to get a mon or 2 down.

    Talonflame @ Life Orb
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Flare Blitz
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance

    Awesome revenge killer, more consistent damage than the Acro set, and priority roost to heal off any damage.
    And as the calcs above show, it's a monster after a Swords Dance boost.

  18. #68
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    how about teaching talonflame overheat while the rest of its moves do physical damage... its really unexpected and could ohko a scizor and ferrothorn without the recoil

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    how about teaching talonflame overheat while the rest of its moves do physical damage... its really unexpected and could ohko a scizor and ferrothorn without the recoil
    0 SpA (custom) Overheat vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 302-356 (92.35 - 108.86%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    (302, 306, 308, 312, 314, 320, 324, 326, 330, 332, 338, 342, 344, 348, 350, 356)

    Hmm. Not a horrible idea to be honest. I'm not sure how easy it would be for him to find a moveslot for it though, since most threats are hit much harder by Flare Blitz anyways (+2 Flare Blitz also OHKO's Skarmory)


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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    how about teaching talonflame overheat while the rest of its moves do physical damage... its really unexpected and could ohko a scizor and ferrothorn without the recoil
    Talonflame does have a mildly usable sp attack, but i`ld use a LO with it, something like

    Talonflame@life orb
    Naughty
    252 attack/4 sp attack/ 252 speed
    gale wing
    -brave bird
    -overheat / fire blast
    -roost/swords dance/return/hp ice
    -roost/swords dance/return/hp ice

    Tho overall i feel it could be inferior to a physical set



  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger View Post
    Talonflame does have a mildly usable sp attack, but i`ld use a LO with it, something like

    Talonflame@life orb
    Naughty
    252 attack/4 sp attack/ 252 speed
    gale wing
    -brave bird
    -overheat / fire blast
    -roost/swords dance/return/hp ice
    -roost/swords dance/return/hp ice

    Tho overall i feel it could be inferior to a physical set
    I wouldn't run HP Ice. With its new power nerf, it isn't as good of a coverage option on lower base stat Pokemon.

    Are you sure it doesn't get anything outside of Hidden Power or Special Fire moves?
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    I wouldn't run HP Ice. With its new power nerf, it isn't as good of a coverage option on lower base stat Pokemon.

    Are you sure it doesn't get anything outside of Hidden Power or Special Fire moves?
    It gets Hyper Beam, probably Air Cutter and ****, yeah this thing doesn't have much special movepool.

    Not like it needs much else. +2 Brave Bird murders even stuff like Gliscor that HP Ice would actually be useful for.

  23. #73

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    Yeah, Sash Talonflame is a bit... pointless. It's not really a good lead (where it's guaranteed not to take SR damage, thus assuring Sash isn't broken just by switching in), being more suited towards being kept until lategame when everything is weakened and it can begin to systematically pick off weakened foes with its priority Brave Bird/Acrobatics. And with both Brave Bird and Flare Blitz relying on recoil, Sash is counterintuitive. Not using its strongest STABs because of Sash is a bit silly as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    its pretty viable with acrobatics
    brave bird is in sync with sharp beak
    sky attack is viable with power herb
    Sky Attack is never viable. Power Herb means you literally get one attack where it doesn't have to charge up. That is not a good idea, ever, since you want to be able to spam its STAB, not only use it once and then never again. And Life Orb outdamages Sharp Beak while also powering up Flare Blitz.
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  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    rated matches ARE serious in the battle competition... more serious than random matches anyway
    ...They're really not. You still see people trying to replicate Red's team, doing novelty monotype teams, doing generic in-game teams... Rated Matches are very accessible to anyone and doesn't really filter your opponents at all. The difference between Rated and Random is very miniscule.

    In any event, all in favor of moving on with this conversation due to the fact that the agreement of how viable Sash Talonflame is tends to be almost unanimous? Forcing you to forgo Brave Bird and Flare Blitz is a gimmicky strategy at best since they're such high-powered moves, and even Acrobatics sets have better alternatives that don't require you to be nearly obliterated to work.
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    I make no claim of being perfect or always right. Take everything I say with a grain of salt.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    In any event, all in favor of moving on with this conversation due to the fact that the agreement of how viable Sash Talonflame is tends to be almost unanimous? Forcing you to forgo Brave Bird and Flare Blitz is a gimmicky strategy at best since they're such high-powered moves, and even Acrobatics sets have better alternatives that don't require you to be nearly obliterated to work.
    Agreed.

    As for viable Talonflame sets outside of the SD one, I have discovered CB Talonflame to be an amazing revenger. I'd post BB calcs, but I'm too lazy.

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