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Thread: Talonflame Discussion Thread

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    ...They're really not. You still see people trying to replicate Red's team, doing novelty monotype teams, doing generic in-game teams... Rated Matches are very accessible to anyone and doesn't really filter your opponents at all. The difference between Rated and Random is very miniscule.

    In any event, all in favor of moving on with this conversation due to the fact that the agreement of how viable Sash Talonflame is tends to be almost unanimous? Forcing you to forgo Brave Bird and Flare Blitz is a gimmicky strategy at best since they're such high-powered moves, and even Acrobatics sets have better alternatives that don't require you to be nearly obliterated to work.
    I... sash talonflame is very helpful on your team and very annoying against you if you don't have a rotomW

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    Agreed.

    As for viable Talonflame sets outside of the SD one, I have discovered CB Talonflame to be an amazing revenger. I'd post BB calcs, but I'm too lazy.
    I could see that being viable not only as a Revenge Killer but also as a late-game cleaner. Once you get rid of the Steel and Rock types (or at least weaken them), there's not much to stop you from just spamming high-powered priority Brave Birds. Though given the nature of CB sets requiring a lot of switches, Defog/Spinner support would be mandatory, since Stealth Rock is always a threat, and you wouldn't be able to Roost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    Agreed.

    As for viable Talonflame sets outside of the SD one, I have discovered CB Talonflame to be an amazing revenger. I'd post BB calcs, but I'm too lazy.
    I've been using CB Talonflame a lot recently. And to say the VERY LEAST, it's amazing.
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  4. #79
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    Seeing as I just needed to delete a page of post cause they were all off topic and useless to the discussion, i guess i need to make a statment. STAY ON TOPIC, arguments go to VMs
    Ghost dog: dont get worked up, scarcasm is common on the forums, but imposters right, as i said before, wifi, rated or not, is inferior experience wise to the simulators. Its a point of fact, more people use the simulators, and are generally more informed people, especially higher up on the ladder, its the best way to get experience and try different stuff.

    Back on topic, about mixed talonflame, its a set aimed to be a gimmack, much like dd latios, to get around threats such as genesect and scizor without the recoil of flare blitz, which i could see being useful as talonflame has crap longevity, while hp ice allows talonflame to beat threats such as dragonite and, namely zygard without brave bird/acrobatics as they fail to OHKO and leaves talonflame open to be revenged.



  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    I could see that being viable not only as a Revenge Killer but also as a late-game cleaner. Once you get rid of the Steel and Rock types (or at least weaken them), there's not much to stop you from just spamming high-powered priority Brave Birds. Though given the nature of CB sets requiring a lot of switches, Defog/Spinner support would be mandatory, since Stealth Rock is always a threat, and you wouldn't be able to Roost.
    Rapid Spin support is not hard to supply in the form of Mega Blastoise. For that matter, Talostoise is an amazing core and the two supplement each other very well. Throw in a Trevenant or something there and you have yourself a solid FWG core to build your team around.
    did you think I'd post something here or something

    wait I just did gdi

  6. #81
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    Damn, this thing only has ONE point higher in atk then Dugtrio and it's still so much of a threat.

    That's pretty amazing, but it does have 120 STABS, but it also has NO coverage outside of it basically.

    It's a weird threat. Mixed simply isn't viable is it?




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  7. #82
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    Talonflame is really powerful though. I use Heatran for it and HP Rock them out of the sky. Talonflame is significantly easier to handle in Pokebank with all the available Pokemon who can check it.
    Last edited by McDanger; 13th November 2013 at 2:12 AM.
    did you think I'd post something here or something

    wait I just did gdi

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    I think he was trolling.

    Talonflame is really powerful though. I use Heatran for it and HP Rock them out of the sky. Talonflame is significantly easier to handle in Pokebank with all the available Pokemon who can check it.
    I noticed that Hidden Power (Rock) is a lot more useful on Heatran now, even in Ubers. I'm not sure whether or not it generally outweighs Hidden Power (Ice), but it's definitely worth using now instead of being one of the forgotten Hidden Power types.
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  9. #84
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    people already have heatran in this game???
    where do you find it because I never knew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    I noticed that Hidden Power (Rock) is a lot more useful on Heatran now, even in Ubers. I'm not sure whether or not it generally outweighs Hidden Power (Ice), but it's definitely worth using now instead of being one of the forgotten Hidden Power types.
    Ho-Oh seems to have become a bit more dangerous in Ubers now, especially since it sets up on Mega Scizor with ease. Plus with the Defog buff, Stealth Rock is not quite as damning as it once was, so fire and bug types have a chance to thrive a bit more than in generations past. And throw in Fairy types to ensure dragons can't just spam Outrage with impunity, and you've got a Metagame that gives HP Rock a chance to shine over the more traditional HP Ice.

    Amazing how things like this work out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    people already have heatran in this game???
    where do you find it because I never knew
    No, he's talking about Pokebank OU, which is like OU except with everything released.

    Most competitive players play using simulators online these days (me being one of them).
    “The God of the old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror."

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    No, he's talking about Pokebank OU, which is like OU except with everything released.

    Most competitive players play using simulators online these days (me being one of them).
    got it... anyway... talonflame is on my new battle box team and it owns with brave bird, overheat, tailwind, and fly

  13. #88
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    Fly is a pretty terrible move from a competitive standpoint. I would switch that out for Quick Attack, also since Overheat runs off SpA you are running a Mixed Talonflame, you may get more mileage out of Flare Blitz and focusing on Attack.

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  14. #89
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    that's the whole idea bro! overheat to catch trainers off guard when they try to send in scizor or ferrothorn!!
    and since I don't have any other SpA moves, the recoil wont hurt at all!!!

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    Here's the issue. Talonflame works best when focused. Overheat is an interesting option on him, and the idea has some novelty; but in the long run, Flare Blitz is a better return on your investment when running with Bravebird. Yes Flare Blitz hurts you, but it prevents an EV split. Scizor and Ferrothorn are not things that Talonflame is particularly worried about, as Flare Blitz is still x4, is getting the boost from your (presumably) Adamant nature, and (presumably) Attack EV investment.

    Futher, while one Overheat, in some niche situations, may be better than one Flare Blitz; you are going to force yourself out against some opponents faster. For example, if you Overheat Scizor, your opponent now has a much easier time switching in anything that resists Flying.

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    While recoil moves do come with their downsides, the fact is they are reliably powerful over and over. Talonflame can also run with Roost to offset that damage. Overheat just causes too many issues for me personally. It is not about Kamikaze style to me, it is about consistency. Flare Blitz will have consistent performance if Talonflame stays in, Overheat will not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalSonic View Post
    Damn, this thing only has ONE point higher in atk then Dugtrio and it's still so much of a threat.

    That's pretty amazing, but it does have 120 STABS, but it also has NO coverage outside of it basically.

    It's a weird threat. Mixed simply isn't viable is it?
    I saw a decent mixed set about a week ago that was mainly used as an anti-lead on PS. Overheat, Roost, HP Ground, and Brave Bird, if I remember correctly. Somebody apparently somewhat well-known from Smogon was testing it or something.
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  18. #93
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    It's a shame it doesn't get Hurricane or Air Slash (Or even Air Cutter for that matter) because a Special Set could have been viable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CircuitAngel View Post
    Here's the issue. Talonflame works best when focused. Overheat is an interesting option on him, and the idea has some novelty; but in the long run, Flare Blitz is a better return on your investment when running with Bravebird. Yes Flare Blitz hurts you, but it prevents an EV split. Scizor and Ferrothorn are not things that Talonflame is particularly worried about, as Flare Blitz is still x4, is getting the boost from your (presumably) Adamant nature, and (presumably) Attack EV investment.

    Futher, while one Overheat, in some niche situations, may be better than one Flare Blitz; you are going to force yourself out against some opponents faster. For example, if you Overheat Scizor, your opponent now has a much easier time switching in anything that resists Flying.
    Ok, think about this... against a common steel type like steelix, which would do more damage an uninvested overheat? or an invested flare blitz?

  20. #95
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    lol at steelix being common, thing is most steels switch out at the sight of talonflame in favor of something that can handle it such as Rotom wash and tyranitar, who take less from overheat then flare blitz. Overall circuit is right, tho most of the time the opponent wont sac a steel on talonflame, if any other fire move was a good idea on talonflame it would be will o wisp to cripple tyranitar and annoy rotom wash



  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    Ok, think about this... against a common steel type like steelix, which would do more damage an uninvested overheat? or an invested flare blitz?
    Implying Steelix is commonly used.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Yeah, no.

    Common steel types include Scizor, Genesect, Ferrothorn, Aegislash (big time), (Mega) Lucario, Heatran, Excadrill, and (Mega) Aggron. The only one you might have a case about would be Mega Aggron, but that's only because of the extreme difference between its Defense and Special Defense. Most other things are absolutely outdamaged by a fully invested Flare Blitz, especially in the case of Choice Band and SD sets.

    And that's assuming they stay in on Talonflame in the first place. Most steel types not named Heatran know to GTFO when Talonflame is in the battle.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 6th December 2013 at 2:37 AM.
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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Implying Steelix is commonly used.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Yeah, no.

    Common steel types include Scizor, Genesect, Ferrothorn, Aegislash (big time), (Mega) Lucario, Heatran, Excadrill, and (Mega) Aggron. The only one you might have a case about would be Mega Aggron, but that's only because of the extreme difference between its Defense and Special Defense. Most other things are absolutely outdamaged by a fully invested Flare Blitz, especially in the case of Choice Band and SD sets.
    instead of laughing sarcastically, why don't you answer the stupid question
    plus im talking about bulky steel types like (on your list) scizor, ferrothorn, aegislash, heatran, and aggron

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    instead of laughing sarcastically, why don't you answer the stupid question
    plus im talking about bulky steel types like (on your list) scizor, ferrothorn, aegislash, heatran, and aggron
    Heatran has immunity to either Fire attack. Mega Aggron takes about the same due to the SAtk drop and the fact that flare blitz can be boosted. The others die either way, and Flare Blitz hits other things harder. Flare Blitz > Overheat as sole fire move, or fire move in general
    did you think I'd post something here or something

    wait I just did gdi

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    instead of laughing sarcastically, why don't you answer the stupid question
    He did. So did mcdanger. Most Steel-types will be hit harder by fully invested Flare Blitz than an uninvested Overheat. The question itself is irrelevant because nobody with actual intelligence is going to keep a Steel-type in against Talonflame unless they don't have a choice. At that point, they're probably too screwed for it to matter whether you use Overheat or not.

    Seriously. Don't just get annoyed when other people mock you for not knowing things. Listen to the rest of what they say, and don't even bother rising to the taunts. It's usually done in jest or just not directed at you, and they'll usually answer your question anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    instead of laughing sarcastically, why don't you answer the stupid question
    plus im talking about bulky steel types like (on your list) scizor, ferrothorn, aegislash, heatran, and aggron
    Heatran isn't going to be included, given neither Flare Blitz nor Overheat affects it at all.

    Let's assume a Life Orb for a fair chance, and without an SD boost, since Choice Band or being at +2 guarantees Flare Blitz will outdamage.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 816-967 (237.2 - 281.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 624-738 (181.3 - 214.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    ...Both are a 1HKO, although Flare Blitz overkills the standard Scizor so hard that it's not even funny. That's enough to 1HKO even if rain or reflect is up.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 567-671 (161 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 421-499 (119.6 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Still a 1HKO on standard Ferrothorn either way. Flare Blitz still outdamages though.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 289-343 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 198-237 (61.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Speaks for itself. Univested Overheat can't 1HKO Shield Forme, but Flare Blitz can. Not even gonna bother with Sword Forme since I think we all know it'll be 1HKO'd in that form regardless.

    Mega Aggron is the exception.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Aggron: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 237-281 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    In this case Overheat does outdamage, but it's still a 2HKO either way.

    The question becomes whether or not it's worth it to carry the move specifically to outdamage Mega Aggron when it's still a 2HKO either way. And the answer to that question would be no, it's not really worth it when there's much more viable moves to carry. Roost, Swords Dance, U-Turn, even Will-o-Wisp would be better.
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