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Thread: Talonflame Discussion Thread

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Heatran isn't going to be included, given neither Flare Blitz nor Overheat affects it at all.

    Let's assume a Life Orb for a fair chance, and without an SD boost, since Choice Band or being at +2 guarantees Flare Blitz will outdamage.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 816-967 (237.2 - 281.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    ...Given Flare Blitz overkills the standard Scizor so hard, it's not even worth calculating the alternative. That's enough to 1HKO even if rain or reflect is up.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 567-671 (161 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Still a 1HKO on standard Ferrothorn.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 289-343 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 198-237 (61.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Speaks for itself. Univested Overheat can't 1HKO Shield Forme, but Flare Blitz can. Not even gonna bother with Sword Forme since I think we all know it'll be 1HKO'd in that form regardless.

    Mega Aggron is the exception.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Aggron: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 237-281 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    In this case Overheat does outdamage, but it's still a 2HKO either way.

    The question becomes whether or not it's worth it to carry the move specifically to outdamage Mega Aggron when it's still a 2HKO either way. And the answer to that question would be no, it's not really worth it when there's much more viable moves to carry. Roost, Swords Dance, U-Turn, even Will-o-Wisp would be better.
    just to nitpick you forgot filter on mega aggron, ik from experience talonflame needs +2 to 2hko aggron without a high role tho thats without a LO



  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdanger View Post
    just to nitpick you forgot filter on mega aggron, ik from experience talonflame needs +2 to 2hko aggron without a high role tho thats without a LO
    Ah right. I knew I was forgetting something. Thanks for catching that.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 177-211 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In which case, yeah. It's a little bit more in Overheat's favor at first, but when we consider the Special Attack drop...

    -2 0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 90-107 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    It's actually not a guaranteed 2HKO, even assuming max damage both times. So realistically it'd end up being a 3HKO in both cases.
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  3. #103
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    Couldn't you just use Flare Blitz after the first Overheat to finish it? It's not guaranteed, but it's still a higher chance to 2HKO than Flare Blitzing twice.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Couldn't you just use Flare Blitz after the first Overheat to finish it? It's not guaranteed, but it's still a higher chance to 2HKO than Flare Blitzing twice.
    Seems like a waste of a moveslot to carry both. personally I like:

    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz/Overheat
    -U-turn
    -Roost

    Personally I would not want to lose U-Turn or Roost for a second Fire move.

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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Ah right. I knew I was forgetting something. Thanks for catching that.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 177-211 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In which case, yeah. It's a little bit more in Overheat's favor at first, but when we consider the Special Attack drop...

    -2 0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 90-107 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    It's actually not a guaranteed 2HKO, even assuming max damage both times. So realistically it'd end up being a 3HKO in both cases.
    Considering the fact that Flare Blitz receives a boost from Swords Dance, FB will be outdamaging Overheat in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Couldn't you just use Flare Blitz after the first Overheat to finish it? It's not guaranteed, but it's still a higher chance to 2HKO than Flare Blitzing twice.
    This means you have to run both fire moves, forgoing such great moveslots as swords dance, (lol) bulk up, roost, will-o-wisp, u-turn, and tailwind.

    Quote Originally Posted by CircuitAngel View Post
    Seems like a waste of a moveslot to carry both. personally I like:

    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz/Overheat
    -U-turn
    -Roost

    Personally I would not want to lose U-Turn or Roost for a second Fire move.
    Just my opinion, but talonflame needs flare blitz so that it doesn't have to split evs. If you can maximize attack and invest some speed without worrying about special attack, then you can increase your respectable bulk. Also, I'm surprised to see a non-boosting non-choiced talonflame. I'll have to try it out.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    Considering the fact that Flare Blitz receives a boost from Swords Dance, FB will be outdamaging Overheat in the long run.
    Indeed, this was noted in the first post. I didn't factor in SD or Choice Band for the sake of best-case-scenario argument in favor of Overheat.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Let's assume a Life Orb for a fair chance, and without an SD boost, since Choice Band or being at +2 guarantees Flare Blitz will outdamage.
    Ergo, Overheat is gimmicky and incredibly situational to the point where it's not worth the moveslot.

    As for a non-boosting, non-choiced Talonflame... I guess it's something I'd have to try for myself, but my gut instinct would be that the lack of power might be a bit of a deterrent. It may have two fantastic STABs, but base 81 attack does leave a lot to be desired. I'm too lazy to plug any threats in a calculator right now posting 20 minutes after waking up and 15 minutes before going to work will do that to you but I'd question its damage output.

    Then again, I suppose it'd be played like a more sustainable Choice Band set, favoring a hit-and-run style. Something that'd really have to be tried out.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    Just my opinion, but talonflame needs flare blitz so that it doesn't have to split evs. If you can maximize attack and invest some speed without worrying about special attack, then you can increase your respectable bulk. Also, I'm surprised to see a non-boosting non-choiced talonflame. I'll have to try it out.
    For the record I agree with not splitting. I usually run it as a bit of pivot when they are expecting the Choiced Talonflame, Boosting could be put in instead of Roost, but I find that since most folks are expecting Choiced (from my experience at least) I have a turn or two to Roost off recoil damage.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Indeed, this was noted in the first post. I didn't factor in SD or Choice Band for the sake of best-case-scenario argument in favor of Overheat.
    And it still proves the point. An extra ten base power isn't doing much on a weak Pokemon who can't afford to split EVs.

    Ergo, Overheat is gimmicky and incredibly situational to the point where it's not worth the moveslot.
    This is also accurate.

    As for a non-boosting, non-choiced Talonflame... I guess it's something I'd have to try for myself, but my gut instinct would be that the lack of power might be a bit of a deterrent. It may have two fantastic STABs, but base 81 attack does leave a lot to be desired. I'm too lazy to plug any threats in a calculator right now posting 20 minutes after waking up and 15 minutes before going to work will do that to you but I'd question its damage output.
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 330-390 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 116-138 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    It will very rarely OHKO Conkeldurr, who is weak to the attack. The Doublade one was more of a troll thing, but I guess that is more of a testament to Doublade's bulk.

    Then again, I suppose it'd be played like a more sustainable Choice Band set, favoring a hit-and-run style. Something that'd really have to be tried out.
    It could be fun, but that power is depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CircuitAngel View Post
    For the record I agree with not splitting. I usually run it as a bit of pivot when they are expecting the Choiced Talonflame, Boosting could be put in instead of Roost, but I find that since most folks are expecting Choiced (from my experience at least) I have a turn or two to Roost off recoil damage.
    Alternatively, boosting could be put in place of U-turn. U-turn is a meh move on non-CB Talonflames, as it lacks the power to do real damage, and there are much better scouts out there with better defensive typings than Talonflame. It would also get rid of your boosts, a necessity on non-choiced talonflame.

  9. #109
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    What's a good number of speed EVs to put into a Life Orb set? I don't know much about Talonflame but I feel like going for the full 252 is unnecessary. Plus, it needs HP.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by poix_the_yak View Post
    What's a good number of speed EVs to put into a Life Orb set? I don't know much about Talonflame but I feel like going for the full 252 is unnecessary. Plus, it needs HP.
    There are three main benchmarks for Talonflame: 48 EVs allows it to outspeed neutral base 100s. 76 allows it to beat all +Speed base 90s. Finally, 164 is enough to beat positive base 100s.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    There are three main benchmarks for Talonflame: 48 EVs allows it to outspeed neutral base 100s. 76 allows it to beat all +Speed base 90s. Finally, 164 is enough to beat positive base 100s.
    Ok, sweet. And this is for Adamant talonflame, right?

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    There are three main benchmarks for Talonflame: 48 EVs allows it to outspeed neutral base 100s. 76 allows it to beat all +Speed base 90s. Finally, 164 is enough to beat positive base 100s.
    I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make a difference in the positive base 100 department. What threats would be an issue at that speed tier?
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  13. #113

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    Mega Kangaskhan is the main reason I've been running more speed on my Talonflame lately. Like The Imposter mentioned, 164 Spe EVs lets you outpace Jolly Mega Kangaskhan and KO with Brave Bird before it can eliminate you with Sucker Punch.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Mega Kangaskhan is the main reason I've been running more speed on my Talonflame lately. Like The Imposter mentioned, 164 Spe EVs lets you outpace Jolly Mega Kangaskhan and KO with Brave Bird before it can eliminate you with Sucker Punch.
    If you run Jolly > Adamant, it only takes 48 EVs, leaving much more room for bulk, which is actually pretty nice. I tend to run 88 for Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack provided I'm running an SD set. The power drop is kind of lame, but I prefer to have the bulk when I can just boost to take care of that (and late game, the power drop doesn't hurt quite as much). Choice Band sets, I always run Adamant with 164 Speed for this exact reason, though.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Master View Post
    If you run Jolly > Adamant, it only takes 48 EVs, leaving much more room for bulk, which is actually pretty nice. I tend to run 88 for Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack provided I'm running an SD set. The power drop is kind of lame, but I prefer to have the bulk when I can just boost to take care of that (and late game, the power drop doesn't hurt quite as much). Choice Band sets, I always run Adamant with 164 Speed for this exact reason, though.
    so are you saying that HP wouldn't matter on a talonflame? I agree on the adamant and speed invested ev's but who needs bulk when talonflame (especially banded) is an all-or-nothing kamikaze flaming pigeon? the HP ivs can also null the recoil damage too as it does 33% of the damage you did to your self (which would be a BANZAIIII moment if you were up against a blissey)

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    so are you saying that HP wouldn't matter on a talonflame? I agree on the adamant and speed invested ev's but who needs bulk when talonflame (especially banded) is an all-or-nothing kamikaze flaming pigeon? the HP ivs can also null the recoil damage too as it does 33% of the damage you did to your self (which would be a BANZAIIII moment if you were up against a blissey)
    It's not that Talonflame needs Bulk per say, but rather, if you've already maxed attack, and have enough speed to outrun all necessary threats, where else would you put the remaining EVs? After all, you don't necessarily need to be running 252 Speed EVs, so HP becomes the logical choice for your remaining EVs.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    It's not that Talonflame needs Bulk per say, but rather, if you've already maxed attack, and have enough speed to outrun all necessary threats, where else would you put the remaining EVs? After all, you don't necessarily need to be running 252 Speed EVs, so HP becomes the logical choice for your remaining EVs.
    thanks, you just confirmed my doubts.
    anyway, for a 3rd move that isn't STAB nor damage related, how about using taunt? it can stop stealth rock using pokemon in their tracks

  18. #118
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    the hp investment is so talonflame can use brave bird/flare blitz more as it has more hps to buffer the recoil as the damage is dependent on the damage you do



  19. #119
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    substitute
    bulk up
    brave bird
    roost

  20. #120
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    Personally I'd like to run enough speed EVs to be able to outrun mega absol sucker punch (ie outspeed base 115 speed) with Brave Bird.
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  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shiftry View Post
    Personally I'd like to run enough speed EVs to be able to outrun mega absol sucker punch (ie outspeed base 115 speed) with Brave Bird.
    Mega Absol's not really common enough to warrant it. Now, if it had Mega Lucario's usage, that'd be another story, but Mega Absol's usage isn't nearly high enough to make it a relevant threat. Plus, it's not like Absol can switch into Talonflame, and it has to be already Mega Evolved on a revenge kill given that on the turn of mega evolving, it uses the speed of the base form, not the Mega.

    Unreliable check at best. And I use the term check very loosely in this instance.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 15th January 2014 at 2:44 AM.
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  22. #122
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    Though rock types have been mentioned so far as a good counters, I'd like to point out barbaracle specifically. He can come on on a LO brave bird and easily survive, not even being 3hko'd in the long run while easily OHKOing with stone edge. I don't have the calcs, but I know for certain it is as I said. Although I have never had to worry about swords dance yet as no one I've played seems to be running it. But anyway, that's what I use for talonflame

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccronin View Post
    not even being 3hko'd in the long run while easily OHKOing with stone edge. I don't have the calcs, but I know for certain it is as I said. Although I have never had to worry about swords dance yet as no one I've played seems to be running it. But anyway, that's what I use for talonflame
    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 90-107 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 84.2% chance to 3HKO (Guaranteed after SR)

    +2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 139-164 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed after SR)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 104-123 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Those are the calcs, assuming Barbaracle is running 252 Atk / 252 Spe for a shell smash set. That said, as long as it's not switching into an already SD-boosted Brave Bird, Barbarcle can handle Talonflame without duress. Its issue is that outside of countering Talonflame, it's not the best Pokemon around given its typing is pretty poor defensively, and it's pretty slow. It's not bad by any means but it's kind of a niche Pokemon.
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  24. #124
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    Ah I guess he does hit that 3hko mark, my bad. I usually run leftovers so I suppose I was a bit off, should of not been lazy and just did the calcs haha. You are right though, pretty niche outside of something like this.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention though, mine has max HP Evs with both defenses split.
    Last edited by ccronin; 18th January 2014 at 8:20 PM.

  25. #125
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    The Bulk Up set is actually quite underrated, after +1 Talonflame is no longer such a defensive liability.

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