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Thread: Talonflame Discussion Thread

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaan View Post
    The Bulk Up set is actually quite underrated, after +1 Talonflame is no longer such a defensive liability.
    Rock types still hard counter it as the 4x weakness makes the extra bulk of little consequence, and many of its other checks/counters are specially based (i.e., Rotom-W, Heatran). Bulk Up can be viable, and can help sponge those Extreme Speeds, but the sheer power of Swords Dance is hard to deny.
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  2. #127
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    Are they really considering making Talonflame uber?


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  3. #128
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    Talonflame can be played around. Like all Pokemon it has its share of checks and counters. Tyranitar actually works really good to counter Talonflame. U-Turn is the only thing that inflicts damage really on Tyranitar and that is a 3HKO. Rotom-W also walls it very nicely. It also doesn't have the greatest for defenses so any Pokemon that is reasonably bulky and survives Brave Bird should be able to KO it back. I would doubt they would seriously consider making Talonflame uber. Its good, but not broken.
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  4. #129
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    Not to mention Stealth Rock remains a perpetual thorn in Talonflame's side due to the rocks stripping Talonflame of 50% of its HP, and the fact that Talonflame exists on a timer since Brave Bird and Flare Blitz both inflict recoil damage. Priority Roost can offset this to an extent, but Talonflame's got enough flaws to prevent itself from ever going uber.
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  5. #130
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    Talonflame? Ubers? Pls. He's powerful, don't get me wrong, but a base 81 attack and a hard counter in Geodude, he ain't going anywhere. Scrotom W is also a good counter, and he's #1 on the usage ladder.
    Last edited by Cloneblazer12; 25th February 2014 at 2:00 PM.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Talonflame? Ubers? Pls. He's powerful, don't get me wrong, but a base 81 attack and a hard counter in Geodude, he ain't going anywhere. Scrotom W is also a good counter, and he's #1 on the usage ladder.
    quit mooching off of my discovery that geodude counters talonflame

    but yeah, talonflame isn't going anywhere. it has so many counters that any well-built team is likely going to have at least one of them. one could go the centralization route I guess, but rotom-w, heatran, and tyranitar most certainly have OU uses outside of countering birdy.
    http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=35776

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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    quit mooching off of my discovery that geodude counters talonflame

    but yeah, talonflame isn't going anywhere. it has so many counters that any well-built team is likely going to have at least one of them. one could go the centralization route I guess, but rotom-w, heatran, and tyranitar most certainly have OU uses outside of countering birdy.
    Sorry, but I have to use it. Maybe Ill credit you next time Probably not tho

    Any rock type counters him in all honesty. I think even Terakion can sponge two Brave Birds (Correct me if Im wrong tho).

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Any rock type counters him in all honesty. I think even Terakion can sponge two Brave Birds (Correct me if Im wrong tho).
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Standard Terrakion is 2HKO'ed by any Talonflame, so it can check Talonflame but not counter it.
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  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Sorry, but I have to use it. Maybe Ill credit you next time Probably not tho

    Any rock type counters him in all honesty. I think even Terakion can sponge two Brave Birds (Correct me if Im wrong tho).
    252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Just barely 2HKOs even with no form of boost, so it can only sponge one. Still, Brave Birds are supposed to do more.

    EDIT: draco plz quit ninjaing me
    http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=35776

    i'm pretty sure i just found the most hilarious pogeymanz are satan discussion ever

  10. #135
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    Check it is. Like I said, I said, it wasnt sure. Ill rephrase my original statement:

    MOst Rock Types counter Talonflame, but a few are beaten.

  11. #136
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    I've noticed that Talonflame's starting to see a decrease in usage. It's still good and a great wallbreaker+revenger, but the metagame really has adapted to its presence and brought it down a notch.
    Last edited by Archangel; 20th March 2014 at 1:17 AM.
    http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=35776

    i'm pretty sure i just found the most hilarious pogeymanz are satan discussion ever

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    Anyway, to make this on topic, I've noticed that Talonflame's starting to see a decrease in usage. It's still good and a great wallbreaker+revenger, but the metagame really has adapted to its presence and brought it down a notch.
    That's no surprise when it's walled by Corsola To be perfectly honest, the hyped up threats of Gen 6 seem to have fallen out of the extreme hype at this point. A lot of Talonflame's usage from a typical player comes down to spamming Brave Bird on anything that doesn't resist it, using Flare Blitz on anything else, U-turning on stuff that resists both, or Roosting the recoil damage away. It was only a matter of time before people adapted to that. Every other team using Rotom-W or even Rotom-H helps bring down its threat level too. And Stealth Rock, I guess...
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  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynergy View Post
    That's no surprise when it's walled by Corsola
    And every other rock type in existence, yeah. Hence the popularization of "Geodude counters Talonflame"

    Quote Originally Posted by Psynergy View Post
    It was only a matter of time before people adapted to that. Every other team using Rotom-W or even Rotom-H helps bring down its threat level too. And Stealth Rock, I guess...
    Yeah, with Rotom-W sitting at the top of the usage list for the past 3 months with a solid 20%-ish usage, and Tyranitar consistently being in the top 15 as well, it's not hard to find something to stop your standard Brave Bird spamming Talonflame in its tracks.

    ...Although with Rotom-H never really seeing above 2% usage, I'm not sure it played a huge role in the decrease of Talonflame usage, but I do get what you're saying, given it has the same bulk as Rotom-W and resists both of Talonflame's STABs as well. But I digress.

    Talonflame may be good at what it does (the most powerful priority in the game is no joke), but it's pretty predictable. Barring rare surprise moves like Will-o-Wisp or Tailwind, of course.
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  14. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Barring rare surprise moves like Will-o-Wisp or Tailwind, of course.
    This is actually what's happening more and more in upper level play, especially in tournaments. I've seen a lot of players using bulkier Talonflame sets that utilize key moves like Will-O-Wisp and Roost to tank hits and cripple opponents, while still being able to check a bunch of stuff with Brave Bird. It also makes a pretty great check to stuff like Mega Mawile, too, since it resists Mawile's STABs and can avoid Sucker Punch and burn it with Will-O-Wisp.

  15. #140
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    252 HP Leftovers Talonflame can always switch in to a weak attacker, take in SR damage, and heal off with Roost and then set-up with Swords Dance.

    The sudden power of Banded Talonflame is awesome, but in my opinion, bulky Talonflame is the way to go. It can even be neutral to any Rotom's Volt Switch after a +1 Roost and take the hit quite well.

  16. #141
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    Not to necessarily address why it should or shouldn't be considered uber, but coming back to a question earlier: is it being considered by smogon at all?
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  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by cryuel View Post
    Not to necessarily address why it should or shouldn't be considered uber, but coming back to a question earlier: is it being considered by smogon at all?
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Heatran isn't going to be included, given neither Flare Blitz nor Overheat affects it at all.

    Let's assume a Life Orb for a fair chance, and without an SD boost, since Choice Band or being at +2 guarantees Flare Blitz will outdamage.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 816-967 (237.2 - 281.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 624-738 (181.3 - 214.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    ...Both are a 1HKO, although Flare Blitz overkills the standard Scizor so hard that it's not even funny. That's enough to 1HKO even if rain or reflect is up.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 567-671 (161 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 421-499 (119.6 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Still a 1HKO on standard Ferrothorn either way. Flare Blitz still outdamages though.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 289-343 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 198-237 (61.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Speaks for itself. Univested Overheat can't 1HKO Shield Forme, but Flare Blitz can. Not even gonna bother with Sword Forme since I think we all know it'll be 1HKO'd in that form regardless.

    Mega Aggron is the exception.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Aggron: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 237-281 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    In this case Overheat does outdamage, but it's still a 2HKO either way.

    The question becomes whether or not it's worth it to carry the move specifically to outdamage Mega Aggron when it's still a 2HKO either way. And the answer to that question would be no, it's not really worth it when there's much more viable moves to carry. Roost, Swords Dance, U-Turn, even Will-o-Wisp would be better.
    Also, the only way overheat is even remotely viable is in a gimmicky strategy against speacil attackers, and your better off not doing it anyway, but here it is

    Overheat + power swap

    I'm showing this to make a point because you would have to waste two move slots to make it viable and it's not that good of a strategy anyway

  19. #144
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    So if it's not even remotely viable, why bring it up? There's literally no point.

    It's just like saying that being able to fly (as a human) would solve problems. It doesn't matter because it will never happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    So if it's not even remotely viable, why bring it up? There's literally no point.

    It's just like saying that being able to fly (as a human) would solve problems. It doesn't matter because it will never happen.
    I was further showing why overheat is not a viable option

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by cryuel View Post
    Not to necessarily address why it should or shouldn't be considered uber, but coming back to a question earlier: is it being considered by smogon at all?
    No. It can decimate a team with ease. I would know having used it and been on the receiving end of its attacks. I just think some of its stats are a bit low for it to be Uber.
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  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natural View Post
    I was further showing why overheat is not a viable option
    Bringing up a topic that was pretty much settled 5 months ago wasn't really showing anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy909 View Post
    No. It can decimate a team with ease. I would know having used it and been on the receiving end of its attacks. I just think some of its stats are a bit low for it to be Uber.
    To be fair, a lot of Pokemon can demolish unprepared teams with ease.

    But Talonflame has enough counters and checks to keep it from ever going Uber. The 4x weakness to Stealth Rock strips it of half its HP for switching in, which, when combined with its best attacks having Recoil damage, really limits its longevity and the number of times it can switch in. Pokemon like Rotom-W, Heatran, Tyranitar, and almost any other rock type can wall it entirely, and Talonflame has difficulty breaking through physically bulky Pokemon like Gliscor and Hippowdon. It can screw a lot of its counters by packing Will-o-Wisp, or certain mixed sets acting as lures (which are few and far between, mostly utilizing things like HP Ground to deal with Heatran), but overall, it's unlikely to ever move up from its current tier. It's good, but it's not that good, nor is it particularly overcentralizing the way Mega Lucario was.
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  23. #148
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    Don't forget bulky electric types/paralysis in general. With speed being its one good stat, a stray t'wave or glare can make it a lot more managable.
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  24. #149
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    talonflame isn't broken at all. in fact, if it wasn't for gale wings, it wouldn't even be good in ou at all. its attack stat is only 81, which isn't terribly impressive. in fact, i'd go so far as to say it's pretty weak by the standards of ou. having such a powerful priority move thanks to brave bird is a really good thing, but that just makes it a good utility mon to check random offensive things, and it doesn't make it a broken offensive threat.
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    I used a Talonflame when I played through Y. I would trade for one after game though instead because as a Fletchinder...well...it's movepool is HORRIBLE.

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