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Thread: New Item: Assault Vest General Discussion

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    *facepalms* oops sorry, forgot this was assault vest only. Now that you mention it, idk if reuniclus would be viable for it anyway since a lot of its moves are support based (simple beam, trick, recover, etc.)... something like delphox with fire blast/flamethrower, shadow ball, grass knot/solarbeam, and psychic/psyshock is awesome for an assault vest coming off a base 100 SpDef.
    Except no Calm Mind or Will-o-Wisp limit Delphox's usefulness to a degree, and it's still ravaged by physical attacks. Personally I'd just as soon utilize Calm Mind on Delphox, since it gets the special bulk in addition to more firepower.

    That said Delphox isn't particularly good as a whole but that's another story altogether.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    *facepalms* oops sorry, forgot this was assault vest only. Now that you mention it, idk if reuniclus would be viable for it anyway since a lot of its moves are support based (simple beam, trick, recover, etc.)... something like delphox with fire blast/flamethrower, shadow ball, grass knot/solarbeam, and psychic/psyshock is awesome for an assault vest coming off a base 100 SpDef.

    ....Until you see that horrible Defense stat. Assault Vest is only useful when physical attackers don't want to attack you. Otherwise, they just target your unboosted Defense and down she goes. Don't forget that Delphox specifically uses a lot of support moves (Wish, Substitute, Calm Mind, Will-o-the-Wisp), so she's losing a decent portion of her usable movepool.

    EDIT: Ninja'd



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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Except no Calm Mind or Will-o-Wisp limit Delphox's usefulness to a degree, and it's still ravaged by physical attacks. Personally I'd just as soon utilize Calm Mind on Delphox, since it gets the special bulk in addition to more firepower.

    That said Delphox isn't particularly good as a whole but that's another story altogether.
    what would I get rid of to put calm mind on delphox?

    another viable assault vest user would be avalugg, although it cancels out mirror coat w/ sturdy

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    ....Until you see that horrible Defense stat.
    That's why I feel AV is amazing on Chesnaught. With his diverse movepool, and amazing Defense, slapping an AV on him only made sense. Watching him live SE Psychics from a LO Alakazam is always fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    what would I get rid of to put calm mind on delphox?

    another viable assault vest user would be avalugg, although it cancels out mirror coat w/ sturdy
    Avalugg has been considered before, but people have found that the lack of recover and average special bulk even with assault vest makes avalugg too susceptible to repeated hits. It would be the equivalent of taunting a worse skarmory and boosting its special defense a bit. The tradeoff isnt good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    That's why I feel AV is amazing on Chesnaught. With his diverse movepool, and amazing Defense, slapping an AV on him only made sense. Watching him live SE Psychics from a LO Alakazam is always fun.
    I agree that chesnaught makes a good assault vest user; it has the strength, bulk, and coverage that marks a good assault vest user. In chesnaught's case there is the looming threat of spiky shield that deters physical attackers somewhat.



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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    I agree that chesnaught makes a good assault vest user; it has the strength, bulk, and coverage that marks a good assault vest user. In chesnaught's case there is the looming threat of spiky shield that deters physical attackers somewhat.
    That's why I never understood why people slap AV on things that already have good SpD. Cool, it has good SpD normally, and you made it better. . . It's a shame Physical attacks are a thing. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    That's why I never understood why people slap AV on things that already have good SpD. Cool, it has good SpD normally, and you made it better. . . It's a shame Physical attacks are a thing. . .
    More or less. An AV user needs to be able to threaten with its unboosted offensive presence, and most Pokemon (but not all) that tend to be specially bulky are lacking in offensive presence.

    It doesn't help that most specially defensive Pokemon tend to rely on support attacks as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    More or less. An AV user needs to be able to threaten with its unboosted offensive presence, and most Pokemon (but not all) that tend to be specially bulky are lacking in offensive presence.

    It doesn't help that most specially defensive Pokemon tend to rely on support attacks as well.
    This is why I prefer using Pokemon that have above-average defense to discourage the foe from using physical attacks and a good enough special defense to benefit from the boost. Goodra is an exception, because that special bulk is titanic and gooey deters physical attackers.



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    ^ That is the only exception. Gooey Goodra.
    But these AV T-Tars running around make no sense to me. In sand it has ridiculous SpD. What is the point in boosting it more than it already is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    ^ That is the only exception. Gooey Goodra.
    But these AV T-Tars running around maake no sense to me. In sand it has ridiculous SpD. What is the point in boosting it more than it alread is?
    I guess it has good enough physical bulk as it is...? I've used AV ttar before and it is horribly subpar. The amount of physical weaknesses it has makes its physical bulk a moot point. And when you consider that it really appreciates sneaky pebbles and the occasional boosting move, AV ttar is pretty mediocre.



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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    I guess it has good enough physical bulk as it is...? I've used AV ttar before and it is horribly subpar. The amount of physical weaknesses it has makes its physical bulk a moot point. And when you consider that it really appreciates sneaky pebbles and the occasional boosting move, AV ttar is pretty mediocre.
    The thing is, not too many would be using a Special attack on a T-Tar in the sand anyway. . . It seems redundant. Literally ANY set on TTar works better.
    He's a prime example of perfectly distributed stats and moves to abuse them. Why hinder that by adding an AV?

    I just prefer to throw an AV on a physically defensive poke with Mediocre SpD and good Offensive stats to make it a complete "tank". Not too into the whole one-sided defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    That's why I never understood why people slap AV on things that already have good SpD. Cool, it has good SpD normally, and you made it better. . . It's a shame Physical attacks are a thing. . .
    I've explained this several times before. Pokemon with naturally high special bulk work well with the Assault Vest because their natural talents already lend themselves to a special tank role, and the Assault Vest only helps that. If you don't want your Assault Vest user to take physical attacks, then don't bring it in or leave it in on powerful physical attackers. You wouldn't let your Snorlax take Terrakion's Close Combat or Garchomp's Outrage before adding the Assault Vest, so why would you do it after?

    As for some of the specific examples mentioned on this page:

    Chesnaught is a pretty awful Assault Vest user. By running Assault Vest Chesnaught, you're giving up the ability to run Spikes and Leftovers/Synthesis/Leech Seed healing, which hurts its ability to consistently tank physical hits. This is especially bad seeing as how its prowess as a physical tank with Spikes is honestly the only reason to really use it in OU right now. Maybe it'll be a better set in a lower tier later down the road depending on how that metagame turns out, but for now you're far better off just using a physical tank set.

    Assault Vest Tyranitar is really solid because the Assault Vest lets it laugh as special attackers in ways it couldn't before. Specially defensive Tyranitar was always a decent set, and Assault Vest only helps that. For instance, a normal specially defensive Tyranitar has a shot at being OHKO'd by Mega Gengar's Focus Blast if it switches into Stealth Rocks. Assault Vest Tyranitar can't be OHKO'd even by Life Orb Gengar's Focus Blast after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes, so you can much more safely put Gengar into insane mind games with Crunch and Pursuit. As another example, non-Assault Vest Tyranitar has a good shot at being 2HKO'd by LO Greninja's Hydro Pump from full health, guaranteed with Stealth Rock. With Assault Vest Tyranitar, Greninja needs Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes just to have a meager 0.39% chance to 2HKO. I could come up with more examples if you want.

    The whole line of "physical attacks still kill it" is really idealistic thinking because a good player with an Assault Vest Pokemon will never let those sorts of matchups happen in the first place. Assault Vest tanks are meant to switch on Pokemon whose attacks they can, you know, tank. You switch Assault Vest Snorlax into Heatran, not Blaziken. You switch Assault Vest Goodra into Rotom-W, not Gyarados. You switch Assault Vest Tyranitar into Latios, not Garchomp. You naturally switch your special tanks into specially offensive Pokemon that they are capable of tackling, and when the opponent brings in something with a powerful physical attack that can take you out, you just switch your special tank out and bring them back in later when needed. This has always been true before the introduction of the Assault Vest, and it remains true now. Why is it that all of a sudden the existence of physical attacks invalidates the use of an item that makes special tanks even better at their job?

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    You had quite a bit of time to spare. . .
    I understand why you run an AV on an already amazing Specially Defensive monster. . . But here's the thing, the same reason you said Chesnaught is an "awful AV user" can be applied for any Pokemon.
    You're right, AV TTar can't be OHKO'd by a FB, I can't argue that. However, it will be 2HKO'd. And what do you know, mGengar outspeeds. No good player is going to be keeping a mGengar (regardless of if it's AV or not) in on a TTar so I think it'd be safe to assume you're talking about him switching in. In which case, as I said, even w/o rocks, it's a guaranteed 2HKO. There's no point in investing in an already Specially defensive Pokemon. It can take hits on the special side already, meaning not too many people are going to stay in throwing Special attacks at it. So what's the point in adding to its SpD if a good player isn't going to be throwing Specially based attacks at it?
    I get why standard sets are standard. I've never understood it though. Why leave the mediocre stat mediocre, and raise the already superb stat, when you can raise the mediocre stat higher and not have to worry about its already good SpD?

    Chesnaught, as I have said, is VERY good whilst holding an AV actually. It takes SE hits from things that normally enjoy staying in on it, and has chances of OHKO'ing.
        Spoiler:

    To call that "awful" is just plain wrong. People are going to stay in on Chesnaught and pop off Special attacks, and that's their problem, when they do that, they potentially run the risk of being OHKO'd right back.
    Your argument is, "you're giving up the ability to run Spikes and Leftovers/Synthesis/Leech Seed healing" well running AV TTar, you're giving up the ability to run Rocks and Leftovers, Dragon Dance, etc.
    Not too many "good players" will be throwing Physical attacks at Chesnaught, which is why it's perfect for throwing people for a loop. They WILL be keeping a quick special attacker in and expecting to OHKO, when they see they don't, and lose their special sweeper in the process he has done his job effectively. . .
    And that is awful. . ? Then what is good?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    You're right, AV TTar can't be OHKO'd by a FB, I can't argue that. However, it will be 2HKO'd. And what do you know, mGengar outspeeds. No good player is going to be keeping a mGengar (regardless of if it's AV or not) in on a TTar so I think it'd be safe to assume you're talking about him switching in. In which case, as I said, even w/o rocks, it's a guaranteed 2HKO. There's no point in investing in an already Specially defensive Pokemon. It can take hits on the special side already, meaning not too many people are going to stay in throwing Special attacks at it. So what's the point in adding to its SpD if a good player isn't going to be throwing Specially based attacks at it?
    You can't switch Tyranitar directly into Mega Gengar at all because of Shadow Tag. You'll have to bring it in after Mega Gengar kills something, at which point you're guaranteed to survive at least one Focus Blast and force your opponent into a coin flip situation where they either stay in and risk dying to Crunch or switch out and risk dying to Pursuit.

    Again, saying things like "your opponent is never going to throw special attacks at it anyway" is extremely idealistic. Special tanks have never been dependent on your opponent using special attacks on them. They are designed to switch directly into special attackers. No one ever argued against using Pokemon like Chansey and Snorlax to tank special hits with statements like "your opponent is never going to try to beat them with special attacks in the first place" because that's not why they work like they do. Likewise, Assault Vest Tyranitar excels at switching into special attackers like Heatran, Latios, and Starmie. When you have one of these Pokemon in and your opponent switches Assault Vest Tyranitar into one of your attacks, then you really don't have much of a choice as to whether you want to use special or physical attacks, do you?

    I get why standard sets are standard. I've never understood it though. Why leave the mediocre stat mediocre, and raise the already superb stat, when you can raise the mediocre stat higher and not have to worry about its already good SpD?
    In a lot of these cases, you're just turning a great physical wall/tank (i.e. Slowbro) into an okay or downright mediocre mixed tank. I'd much rather turn a great special tank into a fantastic one.

    Chesnaught, as I have said, is VERY good whilst holding an AV actually. It takes SE hits from things that normally enjoy staying in on it, and has chances of OHKO'ing.
        Spoiler:

    To call that "awful" is just plain wrong. People are going to stay in on Chesnaught and pop off Special attacks, and that's their problem, when they do that, they potentially run the risk of being OHKO'd right back.
    Just saying, but those calculations aren't particularly impressive when the most physically bulky thing on your list is a Pokemon with uninvested 85/65 physical bulk.

    The reason that it's still not good is simply because you're giving up Chesnaught's best talents (great physical bulk, good defensive typing, and access to Spikes) just to turn it into an okay mixed tank with no recovery and pretty unimpressive power output.

    Your argument is, "you're giving up the ability to run Spikes and Leftovers/Synthesis/Leech Seed healing" well running AV TTar, you're giving up the ability to run Rocks and Leftovers, Dragon Dance, etc.
    The difference is that a Tyranitar without those things is still a really solid Pokemon. Specially defensive Tyranitar is primarily a special tank, and the Assault Vest boost generally outweighs the loss of Leftovers when taking special hits. Stealth Rock is hardly mandatory, and Dragon Dance is pretty bad outside of Mega Tyranitar. On the other hand, Chesnaught's biggest niche lies in its ability to tank physical hits and set up Spikes so that it can actually do something to support its team and be more than a completely dead weight when the opponent brings in something that shuts it down altogether. Maybe you can give up Spikes, but losing all forms of recovery really cuts into Chesnaught's ability to actually tank hits well on the physical side, which it's pretty good at.

    Not too many "good players" will be throwing Physical attacks at Chesnaught, which is why it's perfect for throwing people for a loop. They WILL be keeping a quick special attacker in and expecting to OHKO, when they see they don't, and lose their special sweeper in the process he has done his job effectively. . .
    And that is awful. . ? Then what is good?
    It's not about what your opponent will throw at you, it's about what you can actually switch into. Your Chesnaught set risks being 2HKO'd by moves such as CB Tyranitar's Superpower and Adamant LO Excadrill's Iron Head after Stealth Rock, while a fully physically defensive spread just laughs at those sets (in fact, even +2 LO Excadrill can't OHKO with Iron Head even with full hazard support). Being able to actually switch into physical monsters like that (especially Excadrill, which is the best spinner in OU right now) is one thing that really sets Chesnaught apart and gives it a niche. By running an Assault Vest set, you hurt Chesnaught's ability to consistently tank those physical hits, and you still don't actually help Chesnaught switch into those Pokemon you mentioned in your original post since they all easily 2HKO you. You might get a surprise kill if you bring it after something else dies (even then, Volcarona will probably win since it generally runs Fire Blast > Fiery Dance and will likely be at +1 by the time you switch in, and Mega Gengar rarely runs Dazzling Gleam, while Sludge Wave will do massive damage), but your Chesnaught is going to be crippled to the point where it'll be useless in checking pretty much anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_dog97 View Post
    *facepalms* oops sorry, forgot this was assault vest only. Now that you mention it, idk if reuniclus would be viable for it anyway since a lot of its moves are support based (simple beam, trick, recover, etc.)... something like delphox with fire blast/flamethrower, shadow ball, grass knot/solarbeam, and psychic/psyshock is awesome for an assault vest coming off a base 100 SpDef.
    That's laughable, because Delphox has little bulk outside of AV, and slapping AV on it won't help it take most hits any harder than it normally would. That, and the fact that it's SR weak, has a terrible defensive typing in fire/psychic, and generally loses in any contest of bulk make it far less useful as an AV utilizer.

    Reuniclus, on the other hand, get reliable recovery in Regenerator, has an acceptable defensive typing, and has the balls to stay in on Gengar (even when mega'd!) if need be.

    Bold Reuni vs Timid M-Ggar:
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 246-290 (58 - 68.3%)
    Calm Reuni w/ 218 SpD invest:
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 218+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 176-210 (41.5 - 49.5%)

    and OHKO's back with one SR or spikes switch/ straight off with luck:
    40 SpA Reuniclus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 254-302 (97.3 - 115.7%)

    Delphox can be 2HKO'd with MAXIMUM INVESTMENT and pos nature, and but 2HKO's back. If you get SR'd and don't remove them AV Delphox is useless, whereas Reuni can still switch in and out. This meta is based on pivots and powerful hits, something Delphox can't take repeatedly or dish out against many threats.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    You might get a surprise kill if you bring it after something else dies (even then, Volcarona will probably win since it generally runs Fire Blast > Fiery Dance and will likely be at +1 by the time you switch in, and Mega Gengar rarely runs Dazzling Gleam, while Sludge Wave will do massive damage), but your Chesnaught is going to be crippled to the point where it'll be useless in checking pretty much anything else.
    Is this assuming that Ches has a niche in this meta AT ALL considering we see so many fire falcons hovering about, waiting to SR up on your 4x weak self? Sorry, but I don't see him being a threat running even the physically defensive sets.

    EDIT:
    The only users of AV should be bulky attackers plagued by an inability to take special hits, or attackers that would benefit as much as or more from a boosted SpD than extra attack or the like. Regenerators get a niche with AV as a group, and so do Pokémon that have a powerful presence but are plagued by a lack of defenses or have a bad typing. This would include Metagross (maybe?) Scizor, Celebi, and a few more I can't think of.

    Adding to that, the Pokémon must also be able to passively boost or be non-reliant on boosting. This item is tricky because most Pokes that can use it are supporters, can't attack effectively without a boost, or suffer from a lack of a different item. This is certainly a niche item that can't just be slapped on a starter with a nod and a wink.
    Last edited by The Federation; 27th November 2013 at 8:38 AM.
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    How about Scrafty? I know he isn't top of the heap, but he has a Base 115 Def and SpDef and access to Moxie and Intimidate. Actually, Intimidate AV Powerup Punch Scrafty could be kind of nasty...

    You can even get Drain Punch on him for recovery.
    Last edited by CircuitAngel; 27th November 2013 at 3:44 PM.

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  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    Is this assuming that Ches has a niche in this meta AT ALL considering we see so many fire falcons hovering about, waiting to SR up on your 4x weak self? Sorry, but I don't see him being a threat running even the physically defensive sets.
    Chesnaught isn't a great Pokemon in this metagame, but it does have a decent niche with its physical bulk, typing, Bulletproof, and good support moves such as Spikes, Leech Seed, and Roar. It makes a great switch-in to several common Pokemon such as Scizor, non-HP Ice Aegislash, non-mixed Tyranitar, Excadrill, some forms of Garchomp, and even Mega Kangaskhan running Return > Double Edge. It needs as much physical bulk as possible and access to its recovery moves (as well as Leftovers) in order to effectively fulfill this niche, which is why Assault Vest isn't a great idea on Chesnaught. Maybe if Chesnaught didn't have so many good support moves that it would hate to give up, I could see it, but those moves are just too important in enabling Chesnaught to fulfill what little niche it already has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CircuitAngel View Post
    How about Scrafty? I know he isn't top of the heap, but he has a Base 115 Def and SpDef and access to Moxie and Intimidate. Actually, Intimidate AV Powerup Punch Scrafty could be kind of nasty...
    You can even get Drain Punch on him for recovery.
    It all comes down to how hard it hits the current meta at base, with no boosts. That intimidate Powerup Punch is scary, though, you're right... I can see it being used as a bulkier version of DD Scrafty, opting to tank hits and recover rather than setup with more or less artificial bulk from intimidate.

    Drain punch is going to be really scary on this set. I might try this.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Chesnaught isn't a great Pokemon in this metagame, but it does have a decent niche with its physical bulk, typing, Bulletproof, and good support moves such as Spikes, Leech Seed, and Roar.
    That's a good point, I was thinking about it as a full-on attacker rather than a supportive wall, because of the terms of the AV. I don't see it run too much, though, but I can see it's use if it has spikes and leech seed.
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    Here's the thing. I didn't say he would be OU. I didn't say he couldn't be used in OU. I simply said the AV set I have on my Chesnaught has been working very well. Clearly I have a team that aids him in doing his job of taking hits from both sides and dealing damage back. I wasn't trying to say this is the only set that makes him viable, because clearly, his standard set is quite good at what it does. This AV set I have been running around with also does well at its job.
    Let's be honest, even with the massive Bulk, spikes and synthesis he won't be OU, that's for damn sure. I just listed OU threats to showcase how well he can take hits. Pokemon don't have only one set to utilize. So stop acting like that's the only thing he can run and be useful. With the right team support, it can work very well. I've experienced it myself.
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    I've noticed a distinct flaw in the idealistic talk of this item (as well as most things in Pokemon): This game gives you 6 dudes to throw at 6 other dudes, and we're trying to isolate the effect of ONE item on ONE dude against EVERY other dude, with no other dude support considered. So, new goal, not do that thing (Mostly because I feel we've discussed the use of this item on an individual basis to death, and its time to start looking at bigger pictures)

    So I have an AV user on my team. Heliolisk @ AV. Pros: Heliolisk has good power and speed (109 each), a moderate SpD (94), typing that lends itself to only one (Possibly 2) common special weaknesses: Focus Blast (Maybe some Fire moves w/ Dry Skin too). Here's my set up, and it works well vs most common sp. attackers (Save, maybe, Gengar, but it will put a BIG dent in him). My move set up is: Surf, Dark Pulse, Parabolic Charge, Volt Switch / Thunder/bolt (Volt is good for escaping Gengar for a better solution, unless I can predict his switch and DPulse him on the switch). His EV spread is still a work in progress (Still looking for the best way to deal with Gengar...), but he handles a lot of problems the rest of my team has trouble with, while also dealing well with things they have trouble with. Dry Skin on top of good SpD makes him AWESOME vs. water types (who expect to be able to hurt him with non-water attacks). Switching away from common checks to my Arcanine(Flash Fire) and Gliscor (Who make good switches away from EQs and Fire moves, keeping my opponents on their toes) makes for a balance between 3 of the pokemon I use, with a good array of move types and team slots (SpD Tank, Phys Wall Staller, Phys sweeper). This is a nice 3 part combo, with three whole other dudes (Including Mega Mawile, Crobat) to help manage other threats.

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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhFugginMoose View Post
    With the right team support, it can work very well. I've experienced it myself.
    With the right team support, Magikarp can sweep in Ubers. Nobody is saying your set sucks, I was just saying it's not the most viable user of AV. If it works for you, use it, but Naught has better sets it could be using IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by ModelT View Post
    I've noticed a distinct flaw in the idealistic talk of this item (as well as most things in Pokemon): This game gives you 6 dudes to throw at 6 other dudes, and we're trying to isolate the effect of ONE item on ONE dude against EVERY other dude, with no other dude support considered.
    It's important to discuss team support, but not to the point that you ignore the Poke you're using it on.

    So I have an AV user on my team. Heliolisk @ AV. Pros: Heliolisk has good power and speed (109 each), a moderate SpD (94), typing that lends itself to only one (Possibly 2) common special weaknesses: Focus Blast (Maybe some Fire moves w/ Dry Skin too).
    This is a nice set, especially considering the speed Heliolisk has to work with. Don't use P Charge on a set with Tbolt and Vswitch, though. I would absolutely sacrifice gimmick recovery for power or momentum.
    Last edited by The Federation; 27th November 2013 at 8:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    With the right team support, Magikarp can sweep in Ubers. Nobody is saying your set sucks, I was just saying it's not the most viable user of AV. If it works for you, use it, but Naught has better sets it could be using IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Chesnaught is a pretty awful Assault Vest user.
    Maybe he didn't say it sucked directly, but that's how I took it.
    I didn't say it was the most viable either. It does work however. It can also take out threats it otherwise wouldn't be able to. Which throws people for a loop when their Alakazam dies before my Chesnaught does.
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    Oh, don't get me wrong, Chesnaught itself is pretty decent when you play to its strengths. Nothing truly spectacular, but plenty viable. It's just that it doesn't make a great Assault Vest user since it has to give up so many of its best qualities to pull such a set off. Like I said earlier, maybe Assault Vest Chesnaught will work out better in a lower tier where it doesn't receive as much competition as a bulky offensive pivot. However, as it is right now, Chesnaught's fairly average Atk and low Spe stats don't lend themselves to a bulky offensive role very well, so you're best leaving it to its natural skills as a physical tank with its handful of support options.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    It's important to discuss team support, but not to the point that you ignore the Poke you're using it on.
    I guess my point was, rather than imediatly pointing out flaws, plug for more information and find out what else is geing ran with their set. It might not be a great general set up (I don't much care for Chestnaut myself, in this specific example), but perhaps he has some balance on his team that makes it work. Oft times, I find these boards get a bit hostile (no offence), and that's not the point of the game (Key word, game). Personally, I think Chestnaut has a few too many weaknessess (with a 4x vs. Flying, ouch). Trying to set him up as a Tank w/ AV seems like a bad use of his potential. He doesn't stand in front of any of the common special attackers well at all, even with AV, he can't take much of a hit, and against Ghosts like Gengar, the new fairy type, and any psychic type, he just doesn't have the offencive options to do much (Shadow Claw and Gyro Ball are nice, but they both rely on him being slower, and that means he can tank a hit and MAYBE OHKO something if he's lucky). He may reisit water, but Water types bring Ice to the party, so that's not gonna bode well for him. About the only thing he special tanks well is Electric types, as they usually don't have much access to anything he's weak against but the occastional Flame Thrower.

    Now something worth trying on him that isn't rehasing old gen ideas might be Weakness Policy on a bulky defender with one or two attacks and Spike Shield / Leech Seed or perhaps. With his bulky defence, and his lack of weakness vs. all the favorite physical attacks (EQ, Rocks, Dark, neutral vs. Fighting), it might be worthwhile. Also, this guy has just the strangest move set (expecially when compaired to his type brother, Breloom).


    Quote Originally Posted by The Federation View Post
    This is a nice set, especially considering the speed Heliolisk has to work with. Don't use P Charge on a set with Tbolt and Vswitch, though. I would absolutely sacrifice gimmick recovery for power or momentum.
    You know, I've been torn over taking or leaving PCharge for TBolt or VSwitch, and I understand its a bit of a gimmicky heal move, but it's saved my life several times. The nicest thing about this guy is switching into Sp Attackers that can't hurt hardly hurt him (like Starmi, eventhough I'm not running spikes, she's still around as a fast Water Special Attacker), and getting the Surf Drop on any ground type that wants to try to EQ him to death, switching then to Crobat or Gliscor (Fighting threat vs. Ground Threat) if I don't nail the OHKO and I'm worried about getting outsped (few and far between). The main reason I have it, vs. TBolt, is to fight against Sp. Def stallers, which are usually water types. I'll try a using TBolt for awhile vs PCharge, see what works better for me, but I still consider both a valid option on the set.
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    Heh, I don't think anyone was getting "hostile".
    Well, then I suppose I can explain how it has been working for me.
    Typically, I know this is going to sound odd as all hell, but he sort of plays as my bulky "clean up crew". He comes in on a free turn (whether it be on some set up, or after a Poke bites it) takes the hit and finishes them off. Now, I know what you're thinking, well, now he's at a about half HP (maybe a bit less). Well, that's what Vaporeon is for. Her massive wishes means he'll be put right back to full. I'm not going to have Chesnaught in on a Poke with a flying move, no one in their right mind would do that regardless of what set it was. He's not really meant to switch in at all. He's not my sweeper, he's really not even my "tank", he's there to come out, surprise you by living your Special attack, "clean up" and wait for the time to catch a wish.
    Yes, it is a bit gimmicky (which AV is), but, sometimes, gimmicks just work.
    Clearly, I have more team synergy than just Vaporeon, but that's where he relies on getting his wishes from, so, that's the only thing I included.
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