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Thread: Official Serebii 6th Gen Singles Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #176
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    I know itss uncompetitive. I never said it wasnt. But if you ban Swagger, then by that nature Parafusion and ParaFlinch should be banned too. Sure theyre annoying, but theyre still easy to beat.

    If this ban goes through, the slippery slopes will start and chaos will ensue.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    I know itss uncompetitive. I never said it wasnt. But if you ban Swagger, then by that nature Parafusion and ParaFlinch should be banned too. Sure theyre annoying, but theyre still easy to beat.

    If this ban goes through, the slippery slopes will start and chaos will ensue.
    Ignoring the fact that providing a slippery slope argument without any rationalization is in and of itself a fallacy, why is the potential banning of Parafusion and Paraflinch bad? They're also, in my opinion, somewhat uncompetitive, and saying that chaos will ensue as a result of the banning of an undesirable thing that could potentially lead to a few not undesirable things being banned is objectively false.

    Not only that, but Paraflinch and Parafusion are only ever seriously used on Pokemon that have competitive ability to begin with, and take multiple turns to go into full swing. Swagger, meanwhile, is a one-turn event that so many Pokemon can easily do that immediately turns the game into repeated rolls of the dice.
    Last edited by The Imposter; 1st April 2014 at 11:48 PM.

  3. #178
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    Thats the thing, slippery slopes will happen if the Swagger ban goes into effect. Im not using it, but it will happen.

    Flinching with Serene Grace is already only a 40% chance not to move. Thats worse than confusion right there. Yes its uncompetitive, but its never been brought up for a suspect test (as far as I know).

  4. #179
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    See, for me moves like "swagger" should be banished to the lower tiers, where the games are less about "competitiveness" and more about fun/gimmicks. If I want to use a thunder wave/bite/swagger/roost on my 252hp/252atk impish serene grace dunsparce, then I should be allowed to but only if I am playing in a non-hyper competitive stage.
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  5. #180

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    There are times where a slippery slope argument is valid (provided it's backed up by additional reasoning, of course), but this is not one of those times for two main reasons:

    1)The status quo is in peril. What I mean by that is that we currently have an aspect of the metagame (Swagger, in this case) that is causing harm to the quality of the metagame to the extent that might warrant a ban. Avoiding a slippery slope would mean leaving this harmful aspect in the metagame. This is different from, say, a slippery slope argument for not unbanning Blaze Blaziken. Avoiding the slippery slope in that case by avoiding the unban will not actually hurt the metagame. However, trying to avoid the slippery slope in the case of Swagger by avoiding a Swagger ban leaves a potentially broken/uncompetitive strategy in the metagame, and thus the metagame is left to deal with this harmful strategy all in the interest of maybe avoiding future, similar bans.

    2)We have a precedent for such a ban. This is probably the single greatest reason why slippery slope arguments fall flat on their faces in the case of Swagger. Thus far, Double Team, Moody, OHKO moves, Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, and Brightpowder/Lax Incense have all been banned at one point or another for the primary reason that they are uncompetitive strategies that diminish the influence of skill in favor of blind luck. The primary argument for banning Swagger is that it does the same, only in a different way. You can't argue that we're starting to go down a slippery slope if this is only one of several luck-based strategies to be suspected/banned.

    As for this argument that banning Swagger might cause paraflinch to be banned, my first response is "So what?" Why should we restrain from banning Swagger just because another luck-based strategy might be on the chopping block later? If paraflinch (or any other luck-based strategy) causes enough of an issue as to be a major problem in the interest of a balanced and healthy metagame, and if enough knowledgeable players can devise enough reasonable and intelligent arguments for banning it, then I firmly believe that such a strategy fully deserves to have a suspect test and maybe even a ban. That said, I honestly do not believe paraflinch is enough of a problem to warrant a ban for a few reasons. For instance, it is a very active form of hax instead of a passive one. While a Swagger abuser can abuse free turns provided by confusion to do whatever it wants (similar to Sand Veil/Snow Cloak abusers in BW), a paraflinch user has to constantly use the same move over and over in order to fish for a flinch, which is far more restricting. Regardless, we shouldn't try to refrain from banning something potentially harmful to the metagame just because we might do it again.

  6. #181

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    Swagger has been banned officially.

    I think Dragonite could be the next one to receive a test because the introduction of Weakness Policy makes it amazingly good, which can be combined with a movepool. I don't think banning weakness policy would be a good idea because the only ones that use it are Dragonite and Aegislash. Unlike Aegislash, it's nearly impossible to knock out Dragonite in one hit due to Multiscale

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Trainer Riana View Post
    Swagger has been banned officially.

    I think Dragonite could be the next one to receive a test because the introduction of Weakness Policy makes it amazingly good, which can be combined with a movepool. I don't think banning weakness policy would be a good idea because the only ones that use it are Dragonite and Aegislash. Unlike Aegislash, it's nearly impossible to knock out Dragonite in one hit due to Multiscale
    Dragonite is hardly broken. I think people are starting to blur the line between "very good" and "broken". Yes, Dragonite makes an incredible sweeper with Weakness Policy, but it still has a number of flaws that are still present from last generation. Even with a boost, its Speed is still middling, enabling it to be outsped by a number of threats even after one DD. With Weakness Policy, it is vulnerable to status and has no way of recovering HP, meaning that if you can break its Multiscale with Burn damage or Stealth Rocks, any super effective hit is going to, for the most part, wipe it out before Weakness Policy can contribute anything. Dragonite requires little truly specialized counters to it on teams, and for the most part is easily played around.

    Weakness Policy arguably isn't even its best set; Lum Berry is much more flexible and allows it to shrug off status once and initiate a sweep, which the savvy ones of you will realize is what it's been doing for the past generation or two, and no serious talks of banning it have been brought up, to my knowledge. The presence of Fairies is a limiting factor to Dragonite's success, so one could plausibly say that Dragonite's best set has been nerfed in the generational shift. Additionally, Teravolt Kyu-B is many teams' Ice and Dragon type user, so considering where a decent amount of its super effective damage will be coming from and the omnipresence of Stealth Rock, it's relatively safe to say that WP Dragonite is a very high risk Pokemon. Even Lum sets are most certainly not unkillable, and Dragonite is easily played around.

    So no, chances are it won't be tested.

  8. #183

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    So the current talk on Smogon is Baton Pass teams. I'm not familiar with the teams, but they seem like they're more offensive than most. That got me wondering. Does the average Baton Pass team have a solution for Shedinja? Yes, it's not common in OU, but can they beat it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Trainer Riana View Post
    So the current talk on Smogon is Baton Pass teams. I'm not familiar with the teams, but they seem like they're more offensive than most. That got me wondering. Does the average Baton Pass team have a solution for Shedinja? Yes, it's not common in OU, but can they beat it?
    It depends. More often than not, baton pass teams tend to run a combination of smeargle, espeon, and ninjask (two of which never run super-effective coverage on shedinja, with the other one variating between hp-fighting and shadow ball). When it comes to the start of baton pass chains, shedinja can usually comfortably wall them/set up on them. The end of it is entirely unpredictable, as oftentimes the final three pokemon tend to be a combination of multiscale dragonite/mega-mawile/heatran/thundurus.
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    For the sake of discussion I'm going to post this Smeargle set.



    Smeargle @ Focus Sash
    Timid - Own Tempo
    252 Speed, 252 HP, 4 Defence
    -Shell Smash
    -Baton Pass
    -Spore
    -Magic Coat

    This is almost guaranteed to pass a Shell Smash onto a more threatening sweeper (Kyurem-B, Mega Garchomp, whatever). Against most Pokemon you can simply Shell Smash while they bring you down to your sash, then Spore them and you've got a free turn to pass to a sweeper while they switch out. Magic Coat bounces back Taunt, Roar, etc. The only things that can reliably stop this thing from passing are Fake Out users, Breloom (thanks to its priority and Spore immunity), and some multi-hit move users.

    When you pass +2/+2/+2 to Kyurem-B, therein lies the issue. Baton Pass teams are not broken, because a full chain Baton Pass team is a gimmick at best. However at the cost of one teamslot you can double one of your sweeper's offensive stats. In the case of something like Kyurem-B, that alone is GG right there, especially since you still have 4 teamslots to support him (Magnezone to remove Scizor, ResTalk Gothorita to remove Breloom and other Mach Punch users, etc.).

    In my opinion Shell Smash + Baton Pass and possibly Speed Boost + Baton Pass should be banned.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 16th April 2014 at 6:13 PM.
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  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    For the sake of discussion I'm going to post this Smeargle set.



    Smeargle @ Focus Sash
    Timid - Own Tempo
    252 Speed, 252 HP, 4 Defence
    -Shell Smash
    -Baton Pass
    -Spore
    -Magic Coat

    This is almost guaranteed to pass a Shell Smash onto a more threatening sweeper (Kyurem-B, Mega Garchomp, whatever). Against most Pokemon you can simply Shell Smash while they bring you down to your sash, then Spore them and you've got a free turn to pass to a sweeper while they switch out. Magic Coat bounces back Taunt, Roar, etc. The only things that can reliably stop this thing from passing are Fake Out users, Breloom (thanks to its priority and Spore immunity), and some multi-hit move users.

    When you pass +2/+2/+2 to Kyurem-B, therein lies the issue. Baton Pass teams are not broken, because a full chain Baton Pass team is a gimmick at best. However at the cost of one teamslot you can double one of your sweeper's offensive stats. In the case of something like Kyurem-B, that alone is GG right there, especially since you still have 4 teamslots to support him (Magnezone to remove Scizor, ResTalk Gothorita to remove Breloom and other Mach Punch users, etc.).

    In my opinion Shell Smash + Baton Pass and possibly Speed Boost + Baton Pass should be banned.
    The only pokemon who can use shell smash/baton pass and speed boost/baton pass outside of ubers are smeargle, gorybyss, huntail, and ninjask. Rather than ban that combination entirely, wouldn't it be easier to just ban focus sash/focus band usage on said pokemon?
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  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mye View Post
    The only pokemon who can use shell smash/baton pass and speed boost/baton pass outside of ubers are smeargle, gorybyss, huntail, and ninjask. Rather than ban that combination entirely, wouldn't it be easier to just ban focus sash/focus band usage on said pokemon?
    Scolipede and Combusken can pass Speed Boost too, and Scolipede has the bulk to take a hit and set up Sword's Dance to Baton Pass as well. Combusken can do the same but is only really relevant in lower tiers (depending on where Ninjask ends up). On top of that Smeargle is really the only one who absolutely needs a Focus Sash to work, in fact Gorebyss and Huntail usually run White Herbs to free up an item slot on the SmashPass recipient.
    “The God of the old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror."

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  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Scolipede and Combusken can pass Speed Boost too, and Scolipede has the bulk to take a hit and set up Sword's Dance to Baton Pass as well. Combusken can do the same but is only really relevant in lower tiers (depending on where Ninjask ends up). On top of that Smeargle is really the only one who absolutely needs a Focus Sash to work, in fact Gorebyss and Huntail usually run White Herbs to free up an item slot on the SmashPass recipient.
    Ah yes, forgot about those two. Well, it's an odd idea to ban those two combinations. If you do, baton pass goes from serious threat to gimmick (as nobody uses quiver-dance anymore and tail glow baton passing has become near inexistant with the nerf on most special attacks. On the other hand, it could easily become heavily abused much like last gen with the whole swim/drizzle scenario.
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  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mye View Post
    It depends. More often than not, baton pass teams tend to run a combination of smeargle, espeon, and ninjask (two of which never run super-effective coverage on shedinja, with the other one variating between hp-fighting and shadow ball). When it comes to the start of baton pass chains, shedinja can usually comfortably wall them/set up on them. The end of it is entirely unpredictable, as oftentimes the final three pokemon tend to be a combination of multiscale dragonite/mega-mawile/heatran/thundurus.
    Hate to break it to you, but no one uses Ninjask when the raep train exists. Scolipede has more bulk, Iron Defense, and a better typing that allows him to Baton Pass Defense Boosts, Swords Dances, and Speed Boosts. That being said, the recipient goes onto something bulkier in achain, usually Mega Scizor from my experience. He can provide additional Iron Defense and Swords Dance boosts, while healing and Baton Passing to something like Mr. Mime, who will run either Calm Mind or Nasty Plot.

    The final recipient is none of the Pokemon you mentioned, as they dont bring anything to the table. You will see two recipients: Mega Absol or Stored Power Espeon. If you dont, youre playing the wrong people because they dont know what theyre doing. Magic Bounce completely shuts down any stopping of the chain bar Haze and Crits, both of which are uncommon (unlikely in the case of crits). Thats where the real problems of Baton Pass lie, which is in Magic Bounce alongside Baton Pass, as there is really nothing that can stop it if Baton Pass is played right.

    I dont know where or who you play, but theyre really not doing Baton Pass right if they end with Heatran.

    Also Shedinja should never be used seriously. Ever. Wonder Guard isnt enough to make him good.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but no one uses Ninjask when the raep train exists. Scolipede has more bulk, Iron Defense, and a better typing that allows him to Baton Pass Defense Boosts, Swords Dances, and Speed Boosts. That being said, the recipient goes onto something bulkier in achain, usually Mega Scizor from my experience. He can provide additional Iron Defense and Swords Dance boosts, while healing and Baton Passing to something like Mr. Mime, who will run either Calm Mind or Nasty Plot.

    The final recipient is none of the Pokemon you mentioned, as they dont bring anything to the table. You will see two recipients: Mega Absol or Stored Power Espeon. If you dont, youre playing the wrong people because they dont know what theyre doing. Magic Bounce completely shuts down any stopping of the chain bar Haze and Crits, both of which are uncommon (unlikely in the case of crits). Thats where the real problems of Baton Pass lie, which is in Magic Bounce alongside Baton Pass, as there is really nothing that can stop it if Baton Pass is played right.

    I dont know where or who you play, but theyre really not doing Baton Pass right if they end with Heatran.

    Also Shedinja should never be used seriously. Ever. Wonder Guard isnt enough to make him good.
    Espeon is valid but I can honestly say I've never seen Absol at the end of a Baton Pass chain, since it has to Mega Evolve before it gains Magic Bounce (letting you phase it on the switch) and has terrible bulk.

    Kyurem-B is a fearsome Baton Pass receiver in my opinion. Great mixed offenses, great bulk (With a bit of an investment you can live Bullet Punch from CB Scizor even without defense boosts), and a good enough movepool. Plus Teravolt stops Skarmory from phazing him out and whatnot.
    “The God of the old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror."

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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Espeon is valid but I can honestly say I've never seen Absol at the end of a Baton Pass chain, since it has to Mega Evolve before it gains Magic Bounce (letting you phase it on the switch) and has terrible bulk.

    Kyurem-B is a fearsome Baton Pass receiver in my opinion. Great mixed offenses, great bulk (With a bit of an investment you can live Bullet Punch from CB Scizor even without defense boosts), and a good enough movepool. Plus Teravolt stops Skarmory from phazing him out and whatnot.
    Espeon is definitely the better option 90% of the time, but I have run into Mega Absol. Even though I played like **** that game, he was still able to mega evolve before I could Taunt him with Thundy. Backed by a base 150 attack and base 115 Speed, as well as priority, hes pretty much set. Yes his defenses are bad, but if hes passed a few Calm mind and Iron Defense boosts like Ive mentioned, only crits will stop him.

  17. #192

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    Yeah, there seems to be some confusion here as to what is actually being discussed as a potential suspect. SmashPass and SpeedPass are not even remotely broken, and those were never the problem. The problem is the full Baton Pass chains. If you've ever played anywhere near the top of the ladder, you'd know that theses sorts of teams are everywhere are are exceedingly hard to deal with when you're up against a solid player using one. They're pretty easy to ladder with in general because the actual team has been pretty well optimized with only maybe a single teamslot or a couple of moveslots up for change, and they're so formulaic in the way that they play that it takes very little skill to use them. With a little common sense and prior knowledge of the metagame, you can succeed with these teams by following simple algorithms based on what you're up against. Meanwhile, they're pretty difficult to actually deal with. You basically need either one of a few unconventional checks that are generally unviable outside of dealing with Baton Pass, or you need to play carefully and agressively early-game with one of a handful of powerful offensive Pokemon. Even then, experienced Baton Pass players have several methods of dealing with these potential pressures, and you're generally hard pressed to take care of these teams as early as possible before they can build momentum. Once they get going, they become very hard to stop. You can't play around a Baton Pass team like you can play around a sweeper or stall core by playing around with resistances and checks, using aggressive double switches, etc. If you don't have the right Pokemon to check or pressure Baton Pass chains, or if you can't get the job done early enough to stop the chain, you just outright lose. This also makes Baton Pass even more unique from other playstyles in that no other playstyle is quite as matchup dependent nor has as many auto-win scenarios as Baton Pass chains.

    This is just a summary of some of the pro-ban/nerf arguments. If you want to read it in more detail, you can just read the actual discussion thread on Smogon:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads...hains.3504331/

    @Below: Yeah, I was referring to the posts above yours.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 16th April 2014 at 11:50 PM.

  18. #193
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    I believe I mentioned chains in my post. I've seen Mr. Mime / Scolipede / Espeon / Mega Scizor / Smeargle / Filler

    And I can tell you they're a ***** to handle. Even wih Thundy, they can just Baton Pass/switch to Espeon and then I'm taunted. meanwhile I'm stuck attacking whatever they throw at me, which is usually Scolipede. After a boost, I'm outsped. This continues until enough boosts accumulate until I'm OHKOed by Stored Power Espeon.

    Is it frustrating? Yes. Do I think it's banworthy? Maybe. He only thing I would be okay with is a complex ban. Baton Pass in itself isn't broken, rather Baton Pass teams with a Magic Bounce Sweeper.

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    SmashPass and SpeedPass aren't remotely broken... But full chain teams are?

    What are you smoking? A single crit and the entire chain falls apart. Or for that matter you can sit right beside them and set up next to them. Baton Pass teams always have a way to deal with phazing but rarely do they have a phazer of their own.

    SmashPass and SpeedPass both allow you to greatly boost a Pokemon's sweeping potential at the cost of only a single teamslot. If your SmashPasser gets KO'd prematurely, you still have 5 fully functional Pokemon ready to go, so while you might be put at a disadvantage it's still possible to save the match. However, you lose one key member on a Baton Pass chain to an untimely crit or something, and the entire team falls apart.
    “The God of the old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror."

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  20. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    SmashPass and SpeedPass aren't remotely broken... But full chain teams are?
    I'm personally not completely convinced either way at this point. I'm just explaining the arguments that have been used in favor of a Baton Pass nerf.

    A single crit and the entire chain falls apart.
    Yeah, a lot of things seem less broken when you get hax, lol.

    Or for that matter you can sit right beside them and set up next to them.
    Unless you have something that can set up boosts very quickly (like Tail Glow Manaphy or Nasty Plot Thundurus) and you get them in very early in the game, you'll never beat a Baton Pass chain just by setting up next to them. They can get up a lot more boosts than you can, and no amount of boosting is going to save you from Espeon's Stored Power. Even then, Baton Pass teams are perfectly capable of adapting to early game pressures to stay alive until they can rack up enough boosts (i.e. leading with Smeargle to put a boosting sweeper to sleep and get up free Quiver Dances).

    Baton Pass teams always have a way to deal with phazing but rarely do they have a phazer of their own.
    Not sure what you're talking about. Roar Vaporeon is pretty standard fare on Baton Pass teams.

    SmashPass and SpeedPass both allow you to greatly boost a Pokemon's sweeping potential at the cost of only a single teamslot. If your SmashPasser gets KO'd prematurely, you still have 5 fully functional Pokemon ready to go, so while you might be put at a disadvantage it's still possible to save the match. However, you lose one key member on a Baton Pass chain to an untimely crit or something, and the entire team falls apart.
    I know how SmashPass and SpeedPass work, but they're very different from full chains. SmashPass and SpeedPass simply use a single passer that could end up being a complete deadweight if it can't pull off a successful pass. Due to the way normal teams are built, having just one deadweight Pokemon puts a lot of pressure on the rest of your team since you really need every teamslot you can get to cover all the threats there are to cover. You're also investing a lot more stock in a single Pokemon, so it's easier to take on if your opponent happens to have a solid counter or check to that one single Pokemon. If they can take the particular sweeper or wallbreaker you chose, your main win condition goes down the drain.

    Baton Pass chains are a lot different. Instead of being a team investing everything into a relationship between a single passer and a sweeper/wallbreaker, it's a team that performs like one giant Pokemon. These teams have been almost perfectly optimized to the point where they have many tools needed to protect the Baton Passers, tools that a normal team with a single Smash/SpeedPasser might not have. These teams also commonly carry multiple defense boosters to make their members a lot harder to kill. You also can't just stop the chain by bringing in a check to one of the members since they can just go to another without wasting boosts, while a Smash/SpeedPass receiver will lose all boosts it earned if it switches out.

    Again, I'm not saying for certain that Baton Pass chains are broken, but saying that they're not as bad as SmashPass or SpeedPass is just laughable. Go play some at the top of the OU ladder where these teams used by solid players are a lot more common and you'll get an idea of why they're so bad. Heck, just read some of the posts in the thread I posted. That'll also give you an idea of why people want it nerfed.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 17th April 2014 at 3:51 AM.

  21. #196
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    I am new at this so I still don't fully unerstand the concept of baning from a single tier.These pokemon that were banned from UU are now moved to OU or below or what? And why was houndoomite banned? Istill believe it to be one of the weakest mega evolutions.
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  22. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    I am new at this so I still don't fully unerstand the concept of baning from a single tier.These pokemon that were banned from UU are now moved to OU or below or what? And why was houndoomite banned? Istill believe it to be one of the weakest mega evolutions.
    Tiers work from the top and go down, starting with OU. The banlist for OU is Ubers, so anything banned from OU will be sent to Ubers. Besides that, any and all Pokemon are usable in OU. Pokemon that are not used enough to be OU drop to UU, the next usage tier. UU's banlist is BL, so any Pokemon that are banned from UU but are not used enough to be OU reside in BL. Any Pokemon that are not BL, OU, or Ubers are available for use in UU, and this pattern continues all the way down to NU. Essentially, if a Pokemon is banned from UU, it is sent to BL, not OU (since OU is based on usage, hence the term "OverUsed"). However, this does mean that it can only be used in OU or higher (with the only higher metagame being Ubers).

    Also, the Houndoomite is currently not banned. Mega Houndoom was banned temporarily from UU, but it was later retested and deemed not broken. It currently holds a secure spot in UU as one of the tier's best offensive Pokemon. Of course, this does mean that it will be banned in lower tiers (RU and NU) once they become official.

  23. #198
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    StL
    Posts
    431

    Default

    I'm a beginner trainer and I happen to stumble upon the Gorebyss / Huntail Smash pass. I use it in triple battles along side a hypnosis user to protect it. Then pass it to Mega Garchomp. It has helped me beat trainers much better than me. Fully invested in Hp and Speed with a White Herb usually I get it off. But yea ultimately dead weight after. Swift swim with the pass would be a plus too. My 2cents
    1 million thanks to Varanus for this Shiny Card.

    0963-1007-3370 Y Fc

  24. #199
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    192

    Default

    I'm sorry, I haven't been on Serebii Forums for a while. xD

    Anyway, can anybody tell me what Ubers are? Are they Pokemon that's not allowed?

    SHINIES



    DRAGON EGGS


    Click on the Egg/Dragon to help me grow them!
    You can make your own at www.dragcave.net!

  25. #200
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Hoenn
    Posts
    1,760

    Default

    Ubers are Pokemon banned from the OU tier. Its mostly just cover legends, but there are definitely exceptions.

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