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Thread: Official Serebii 6th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Iirc, Blazikenite is banned from OU regardless, but I could be wrong.
    Nope, just Blaziken. Technically Blazikenite is not banned from OU. Gengarite and Kangaskhanite are the only items currently on the official banlist.

    ...Of course, Blazikenite with no Blaziken is pointless, but if you're going for pure style, there is nothing to stop you from having one of your Pokemon carry Blazikenite Yeah I'll stop.

    So it's more or less effectively banned despite not technically being on the Banlist.
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  2. #52
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    My bad. I assumed they banned it along with Blaziken.

    Still, I don't see why they haven't thought of this at Smogon. For the second suspect test, they should have Blaze Blaziken on the table.

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    Now that I think about it though, my gut instinct is because Smogon doesn't do "conditional" bans upon abilities. Swift Swim + Drizzle was banned across the board; it didn't matter whether it was Kingdra, Kabutops, or anything else. Moody was banned from all users as well, so that no Pokemon could abuse it.

    Speed Boost, on the other hand, while undoubtedly the reason for Blaziken skyrocketing into Ubers, is not so overpowered on Ninjask, Sharpedo, or Scolipede. It's undoubtedly one of the best abilities in the game, and yet... those Pokemon aren't so overpowered with it, given they have other factors for one reason or another that prevents them from achieving Blaziken's level of power despite the same absurdly useful ability. Rather than banning an ability for one Pokemon, it seems as though Smogon follows the "All or nothing" principle. Ban it for all users, or don't ban it at all.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    Now that I think about it though, my gut instinct is because Smogon doesn't do "conditional" bans upon abilities. Swift Swim + Drizzle was banned across the board; it didn't matter whether it was Kingdra, Kabutops, or anything else. Moody was banned from all users as well, so that no Pokemon could abuse it.

    Speed Boost, on the other hand, while undoubtedly the reason for Blaziken skyrocketing into Ubers, is not so overpowered on Ninjask, Sharpedo, or Scolipede. It's undoubtedly one of the best abilities in the game, and yet... those Pokemon aren't so overpowered with it, given they have other factors for one reason or another that prevents them from achieving Blaziken's level of power despite the same absurdly useful ability. Rather than banning an ability for one Pokemon, it seems as though Smogon follows the "All or nothing" principle. Ban it for all users, or don't ban it at all.
    Yeah, I think it's exactly that. Though seeing as this seems to be the only notable situation where such an idea has come up, I don't see why this would be a serious thing to implement. I doubt this would lead to people suggesting similarly conditional bans. But it's no big deal either way, I suppose. This isn't something bad like all this awful stuff that's been allowed in UU lately, beta tier or not.
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    I get what you're saying, and that's a completely valid point. But the whole reason why he is banned is because of his DW ability. With the logic you made, it's hard to justify what I'm saying, but if you take away Speed Boost, Blaziken is no longer the undefeatable god of OU. In fact, without it, he's barely viable in OU thanks to his base speed.

    Yes, I know that Ninjask and all the other speed boost users aren't OP with it, but when given to just the right Pokémon, it becomes an unstoppable threat. Blaziken has just the right typing, power, and move pool. What was it lacking in? Speed. If you were to give other Pokémon speed boost, such as say Metagross, or lucario, they would be OP. Both of these pokes have the right stats and move pool, they just lack in speed. (I'm talking about normal Luke, not the mega)

    I think that if enough people got behind this, smogon might actually consider this.

    Like psynergy said, there really aren't any other cases out there like this one.

  6. #56

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    Alderon's Proposal was a rare exception to an otherwise solid rule about avoiding complex bans, and it was done so only because of the extreme circumstances. The problem at the time was Drizzle and Swift Swim in tandem with one another, and there was no easy way to address the ban. Banning Drizzle alone would have wiped out all Rain playstyles, which included the much less powerful versions of Rain offense that lacked Swift Swim and Rain stall, and it might have caused an imbalance in the weather aspect of the metagame that might have led to other bans. Banning Swift Swim would have soft banned a handful of Pokemon whose only released ability at the time was Swift Swim, which we needed to avoid due to the unnecessary collateral damage. It would have also destroyed the possibility of Swift Swim offense with manual Rain, a common playstyle in the earlier DPP metagame that was far from broken. Banning the broken abusers themselves would have created a large number of individual bans, because several Pokemon were suspected to be broken with DrizzleSwim (namely Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Omastar, and Gorebyss), and more might only rise to take their places as the new broken abusers if they were banned.

    Drizzle + Swift Swim was the best way of solving the greatest problem with Rain at the time while saving entire playstyles and avoiding a large number of bans and/or collateral damage. A Speed Boost + Blaziken ban would literally just be a nerf to one Pokemon just to keep it in OU, so it is nowhere near the same thing as Drizzle + Swift Swim. The last thing we need is to get into this mindset where we start trying to neuter a Pokemon until it's viable in OU. Not only does it only further complicate the banlist, but it only creates a slippery slope of nerfs. I know the "slippery slope" argument is often laughed at and dismissed by people who want Blaze Blaziken back in OU (and non-Sand Rush Excadrill in BW OU, for that matter), but it really is one. You cannot just stop at Blaziken; the competitive community consists of thousands of people, each with their own favorites and preferences, and creating a precedent like this will cause people to expect the same treatment for other suspects that they don't want to see banned. You will have people asking questions like, "If Power-Up Punch was the main reason Mega Kangaskhan was so broken, why don't we just ban Power-Up Punch + Kangaskhanite?" "If Seed Flare was the only reason Skymin was as powerful as it was, why don't we just ban Seed Flare + Shaymin-S? Dark Void + Darkrai?" This sort of thinking will happen if you give people a precedent to base it off of.

    Not only that, but keep in mind that if you create a complex ban to keep a suspect in OU, you have to do it with the OU metagame in mind. That said, unbanning Blaze Blaziken would do OU no good whatsoever. Blaziken was outclassed by Infernape in DPP, and Infernape isn't even a great Pokemon in OU right now, so you can imagine that Blaziken is going to be far worse off. It will have no beneficial impact on the OU metagame at all; I'm not even sure it would settle in UU with the way that metagame is shaping up to be right now.

    But honestly, there's not much use to this discussion. This isn't a new issue; Speed Boost + Blaziken is a ban idea that traces all the way back to the suspect test of Blaziken in BW OU. It has been brought up on Smogon many times, but the majority of players in these discussions have generally agreed that such a ban would be a bad idea since it hurts Smogon's goal of a simple banlist and sets a bad precedent all for a fairly minimal benefit to the metagame in question. While there is a sizeable group that wants these sorts of complex bans, it'll take a pretty dramatic demographic shift before the majority of the competitive community will actually agree to one.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 5th February 2014 at 4:39 AM.

  7. #57
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    The basic reason Smogon doesn't do complex bans for individual 'mons is because Speed Boost is considered an aspect of Blaziken; banning Speed Boost Blaziken would be equivalent to banning, say, Kangaskhanite with PUP, or Skymin with STAB moves, or Gen V Thundurus-I with Prankster... it's mostly for simplicity and consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    ...Of course, Blazikenite with no Blaziken is pointless, but if you're going for pure style, there is nothing to stop you from having one of your Pokemon carry Blazikenite.
    It's actually marginally relevant in certain OMs such as 1v1, since Mega Stones can't be removed from their holder, meaning they serve the same purpose as Mail formerly did.

    of course, you can always use any other Mega Stone for that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    The basic reason Smogon doesn't do complex bans for individual 'mons is because Speed Boost is considered an aspect of Blaziken; banning Speed Boost Blaziken would be equivalent to banning, say, Kangaskhanite with PUP, or Skymin with STAB moves, or Gen V Thundurus-I with Prankster... it's mostly for simplicity and consistency.



    It's actually marginally relevant in certain OMs such as 1v1, since Mega Stones can't be removed from their holder, meaning they serve the same purpose as Mail formerly did.

    of course, you can always use any other Mega Stone for that
    I wasn't actually aware of any of those cases (except Kangaskhan, but getting rid of PuP on Kanga wouldn't help matters that much, would it? Not that it's really relevant). Especially not that deal with the mail.

    I just want to say, though, that the fact that the Blazikenite and Mewtwonite X/Y aren't on the banlist definitely messes with my OCD, if only a little. I mean, I know it doesn't matter, but still.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I'm curious as to why you find Doublade to be awful? I haven't played a ton of UU Beta (or Pokemon in general lately), so I'm admittedly pretty inexperienced at the new tier, but it looks fine to me. At the very least, it has a speed stat low enough to actually use Gyro Ball, unlike Aegislash. In fact, even factoring in the Atk stat difference, a Doublade's Gyro Ball is hitting harder than Aegislash's Iron Head on anything faster than a max Spe neutral base 85. There's also the solid defensive typing, fantastic physical bulk with the Eviolite, and impressive Atk stat to consider. I could see how it wouldn't be top-tier, given its low special bulk and bad speed, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it awful.


    In my eyes Doublade suffers heavily from Cloyster syndrome, with his lopsided defences and low Speed leaving him very vulnerable to revengekilling by Special attackers, who right now seem to form a large portion of the top usage charts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    In my eyes Doublade suffers heavily from Cloyster syndrome, with his lopsided defences and low Speed leaving him very vulnerable to revengekilling by Special attackers, who right now seem to form a large portion of the top usage charts.
    Thats what team cores are for. IDK why you would stay in on a strong Special Attacker...

    Eviolite Doublade is awesome. Right now, its one of the few Pokes that can wall Terrakion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Thats what team cores are for. IDK why you would stay in on a strong Special Attacker...

    Eviolite Doublade is awesome. Right now, its one of the few Pokes that can wall Terrakion...
    Though Eviolite is a bit riskier this generation since Knock Off has become a lot more powerful/popular.

    ...I don't anticipate Terrakion staying in UU for long, personally, so we'll see if Doublade's usefulness stays the same or takes a dip if the mighty Musketeer goes away.
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    even without terrakion, breloom will likely drop which doublade walls, as well as coblion and virizion, while its bulk can allow it to pressure metagross, so i wouldnt be to surprised if it becomes a defensive staple once the tier settles down



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    Staraptor for the third generation in a row.

    You'd expect Kokoloko to ban Kyurem by now, but oh well.
    Last edited by Eaglehawk; 6th February 2014 at 3:55 AM.
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    I'm surprised Terrakion was UU to begin with. Last gen, he was one of the best pokes in the meta game. Glad he's gone though, I can finally make a team without having to make sure half my team can check/counter him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    I'm surprised Terrakion was UU to begin with. Last gen, he was one of the best pokes in the meta game. Glad he's gone though, I can finally make a team without having to make sure half my team can check/counter him.
    It makes sense when you think about it. It's all about usage, and with a new generation, many of the new things had absurdly high usage for the sake of being new (see: Klefki), while older Pokemon have a decrease in usage as an extension of this. But that's generally why people say the tiers have to stabilize; old threats are being remembered now that the novelty has worn off, hence their high usage in UU. Well, that and things like Terrakion and Landorus-I never really stopped being stupidly powerful.
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    I know tiers are based on usage, and that bad things like Avallugg and Klefki got a lot more usage thanks to novelty, but sometimes when you have something as powerful as terrakion and Landorus running around, you'd think they'd take more than just usage into account...

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    manaph is below 2% usage so ya you would think they would but thats how kokoloko wanted to do UU



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    Quote Originally Posted by McDanger View Post
    manaph is below 2% usage so ya you would think they would but thats how kokoloko wanted to do UU
    Koko's weird like that.

    tbh though, Terrakion was already screwed once the metagame started to take shape. Terrakion is one of the most Priority-weak Pokemon in the metagame. Somewhat thankfully, Generation V didn't have that many common priority abusers (Azumarill was still UU and Conkeldurr was relatively low in usage). However, Gen VI introduces a priority-heavy metagame. Stuff like MLuke, MPinsir, Aegislash, newly buffed Azumarill, and now common AssVest Conk all carry priority moves that easily beat Terrakion, making more of a liability typing-wise; however, when Lucarionite gets banned, I think Terrakion will come back up to OU.

    Again, Terrakion's only a good Pokemon when the metagame balances itself out. Terrakion wasn't used all that much back in early BW simply because there were things better than it, but as things slowly started getting banned (e.g. Excadrill and Thundurus), Terrakion did much better.
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  20. #70

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    Blazikenite should probably be banned. I think it should be noted that only Speed-boost Blaziken is banned. Blaze Blaziken is perfectly legal. Why anyone would run it, I don't know, but it's legal.

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    Lucarionite and Genesect are now ubers



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Trainer Riana View Post
    Blazikenite should probably be banned. I think it should be noted that only Speed-boost Blaziken is banned. Blaze Blaziken is perfectly legal. Why anyone would run it, I don't know, but it's legal.
    Blaziken in general is banned, to my knowledge, so there's no reason they need to add Blazikenite to the banlist. Granted, it wouldn't be out of place to simply include it in the list since it's technically Uber level anyway, but it doesn't make any difference regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDanger View Post
    Lucarionite and Genesect are now ubers
    expected/10 for Lucarionite. Genesect seemed like a bigger debate, but I'm glad he's gone too. Maybe I can stop running Rotom-H now, even though I like him more than Rotom-W.
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    No surprise on Lucario. Time to see who takes its place as the supreme sweeping Mega of OU. My money would be on MegaZard X, Mega Mawile, or Mega Pinsir.

    Genesect isn't a big surprise either. Considering the damage it caused last generation in OU, I was surprise it lasted as long as it did.
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    I am legitimately sad that Luke got the boot. I now have to redo all my teams. I know he was really good, but most scarfers beat him....

    Anyways, I now see Pinsir, Megazards x and y, and Mawile being the go to megas now. Venusaur is still gonna be good with his walling abilities...

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    Quote Originally Posted by McDanger View Post
    Lucarionite and Genesect are now ubers
    Genesect in Ubers is a buzzkill.

    Anyway, a lot of things are definitely coming up from the cellar. The Lucarionite ban lowered the Speed tier creep a lot. I'm predicting stuff like Latios will be coming up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mega-Lucario pretty much defined the OU metagame. With him gone, Stall is going to have more breathing room.

    The Genesect ban is definitely going to hit Volt-Turn really hard.
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