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Thread: Official Serebii 6th Gen Singles Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #76
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    tbh I'm wondering if Deo-S is gonna still be around by the end of this Gen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Genesect in Ubers is a buzzkill.

    Anyway, a lot of things are definitely coming up from the cellar. The Lucarionite ban lowered the Speed tier creep a lot. I'm predicting stuff like Latios will be coming up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mega-Lucario pretty much defined the OU metagame. With him gone, Stall is going to have more breathing room.

    The Genesect ban is definitely going to hit Volt-Turn really hard.
    stall is a lot better now with both banned, but is still forced to use sylveon and such for kyurem black, but half the time it fits on easy. Genesect and mega luc both where defining forces so i`m glad to see them go and hopefully give rise to more creativity, Mega gyarados is more viable without a fighting priority on nearly every team



  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by McDanger View Post
    stall is a lot better now with both banned, but is still forced to use sylveon and such for kyurem black, but half the time it fits on easy. Genesect and mega luc both where defining forces so i`m glad to see them go and hopefully give rise to more creativity, Mega gyarados is more viable without a fighting priority on nearly every team
    tbh Mega-Gyara was already pretty anti-meta with Mold Breaker Dragon Dance imo

    Anyway, regarding Stall, Fairies are pretty much all coming up now. With both Gene and MLuke, the main users of Steel STABs, Fairies can switch in much better to tank Fighting and Dragon moves. Here's how I'm seeing it.

    Pinsir, Fairies, Gyara, TTar, Starmie, Lati@s, Mamoswine go up in usage

    Dragons, Conkeldurr go down in usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    tbh I'm wondering if Deo-S is gonna still be around by the end of this Gen
    Chances are that he is. After 5 months, his role of setting hazards and dying is no longer viable since hazard setters this gen should be able to reset hazards reliably because the threat of Defog provides no permanence. All he can really run now is an okay Mixed wallbreaker/sweeper with a nice perk of outspeeding every Base 100 Spe Scarfer.
    Last edited by Eaglehawk; 17th February 2014 at 2:57 AM.
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  4. #79
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    Tbh, I really don't see megados getting much more usage. Even though Luke and Genesect both got the boot, there. Are still many better megas out there to use. And Mold Breaker Earthquake is better done by Excadrill, who is both faster and gets STAB, as well as spinning. Megados was a lost opportunity IMO. He's too slow and needs a boost to be useful.

    As for conk, I see his usage dropping slightly, but not by much. AV Conk, the most common set, is still really good. He is a perfect Rotom W counter(who happens to be #1 in usage), and he still checks a lot of threats with his bulk.

    Also I see Florges go up to OU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Also I see Florges go up to OU.
    I'm not sure about that. It still faces a ton of competition from Sylveon, who has more HP giving it better physical bulk in addition to bigger wishes. It's also got the Sub-bypassing Pixelate Hyper Voice up its sleeve as well. Florges has a bit better Special Defense making it better as a dedicated special wall, but considering the most dragons are primarily physical, Sylveon's edge is a bit more noticeable. Doesn't help that Florges has some effectively useless abilities as well. I'm not sure if the loss of Genesect/MegaLuke is enough to boost Florges up, as its competition is still there. Time will tell though.
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    That's exactly it. A dedicated Special Wall. Latios, Hydreigon(lol), and a lot of other special attackers that I can't think of by name are completely walled by her. I see that niche as being enough to boost her up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    That's exactly it. A dedicated Special Wall. Latios, Hydreigon(lol), and a lot of other special attackers that I can't think of by name are completely walled by her. I see that niche as being enough to boost her up.
    Not to nitpick but Latios isn't walled by either of them. Psyshock 2HKOs either of them.

    It's a small niche but I'm just thinking it may not be enough to boost up her usage, but time will tell. I guess it depends on how the Metagame gears itself once things calm down a bit. There are still quite a few hugely threatening physical threats that can make Florges' life miserable, but we'll see if its Niche as a special wall is enough.
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  8. #83
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    I am glad about Mega Lucario getting banned. It takes zero skill to use it and destroy with it. I've lost matches when I've been up by at least two Pokemon simply because Mega Lucario is hard to stop. I never really used it myself because I felt it was cheap to do so.

    I don't think Latios is going to land in Ubers this generation. It still is easy enough to take out, especially since Soul Dew is not currently available for it. Talonflame is a powerful check to it. Tyranitar is as good as ever against Latios, easily surviving Surf then OHKO'ing back.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglehawk View Post
    Chances are that he is. After 5 months, his role of setting hazards and dying is no longer viable since hazard setters this gen should be able to reset hazards reliably because the threat of Defog provides no permanence. All he can really run now is an okay Mixed wallbreaker/sweeper with a nice perk of outspeeding every Base 100 Spe Scarfer.
    IIRC the arguments against Deo-S went something like

    a) it has two sets, hazards/screens support and attacker, and it's really cool at both, and you have no idea what it's gonna try to do
    b) its offensives are actually cooler than they look because it has mixed offenses, it doesn't have to invest in Speed/run a Scarf, while its defenses are decent enough
    c) its movepool is cray enough to screw over many of its checks
    d) the hazards set has Taunt to stop Defogging because no one loves you
    e) there are bad people in this world that run Bisharp and spinblockers with hazards Deo-S who will stop you from getting rid of its hazards
    f) in general, it makes offensive teams really cool because it's so versatile and good at what it does, and makes everyone else sad

    those arguments ended up failing, but depending on how the metagame shifts, they may or may not hold more truth in the future

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Also I see Florges go up to OU.
    Florges' biggest problem is really bad movepool and lack of a relevant ability. All of its abilities are geared for Doubles play, and this lack of ability gives it a losing edge against Sylveon and Clefable, both of which are the two prime Fairy walls in the metagame right now. Sylveon hits everyone hard with Pixellate Hyper Voice and Clefable has both Unaware and Magic Guard to either deal with the metagame's large amount of boosting sweepers and status, respectively. Florges only has an overkill Special Defense. What makes it worse for Forges is that its Offensive movepool consists of nothing but Fairy and Grass moves, which already kills it as an even remotely viable Bulky attacker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    IIRC the arguments against Deo-S went something like

    a) it has two sets, hazards/screens support and attacker, and it's really cool at both, and you have no idea what it's gonna try to do
    b) its offensives are actually cooler than they look because it has mixed offenses, it doesn't have to invest in Speed/run a Scarf, while its defenses are decent enough
    c) its movepool is cray enough to screw over many of its checks
    d) the hazards set has Taunt to stop Defogging because no one loves you
    e) there are bad people in this world that run Bisharp and spinblockers with hazards Deo-S who will stop you from getting rid of its hazards
    f) in general, it makes offensive teams really cool because it's so versatile and good at what it does, and makes everyone else sad

    those arguments ended up failing, but depending on how the metagame shifts, they may or may not hold more truth in the future
    Deoxys-S is okay right now. You can easily cheese people with the mind games between hazards and revenge killer, but the metagame is so unfavorable to both sets it's actually balanced in this meta.
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  11. #86
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    Like I said, that's the way I see it. I think the niche is small enough for Florges to be OU, but I digress.

    As for Deoxys, I really don't see any reason for him to be Ubers in all honesty. His offenses aren't THAT good, being onl base 90 or 95 (can't remember which), which is outclassed by many other revenge killers. Sure his insane speed is good, but his low offenses hold him back enough. As for hazards, his role as a suicide lead ain't that good anymore. Since Mega Scizor and Mndibuzz are everywhere, you need to keep him alive until whichever one you're facing is dead; a task easier said than done. Rapid Spin isn't as big of a problem, since you only ever see Excadrill, and the occasional Starmie. Both have specific spin blockers that beat them, although you have to be careful with oExcadrills mold breaker Earthquake.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Like I said, that's the way I see it. I think the niche is small enough for Florges to be OU, but I digress.

    As for Deoxys, I really don't see any reason for him to be Ubers in all honesty. His offenses aren't THAT good, being onl base 90 or 95 (can't remember which), which is outclassed by many other revenge killers. Sure his insane speed is good, but his low offenses hold him back enough. As for hazards, his role as a suicide lead ain't that good anymore. Since Mega Scizor and Mndibuzz are everywhere, you need to keep him alive until whichever one you're facing is dead; a task easier said than done. Rapid Spin isn't as big of a problem, since you only ever see Excadrill, and the occasional Starmie. Both have specific spin blockers that beat them, although you have to be careful with oExcadrills mold breaker Earthquake.
    Since Sylveon has higher HP than Florges, the difference in their special bulk is actually quite negligible, while Sylveon has larger Wishes and greater physical bulk. Combine that with Pixilate Hyper Voice having stronger BP and hitting through subs, and Sylveon's basically better than Florges in every way.

    As for Deoxys, I was honestly on the fence. Its hazard-setting sets are mediocre, but where it really shines is as a revenge killer. It can be EVd to outspeed basically everything up to and including ScarfChomp; and with its diverse movepool and good mixed offenses, it was the epitome of a late-game cleaner and revenge killer. Combine that with the ubiquity of its suicide sets, and you had an extremely unpredictable, extremely fast attacker that only needed a few holes punched in bulkier things before it could wreck. It was effectively a Scarfer without the Scarf.

    Of course, it was also quite frail and very weak without a Life Orb (which was never run because it couldn't bluff a hazard set that way). Not all of its attacks were very powerful, such as its pathetic Fire Punch that needed fair Attack investment to OHKO Genesect. It was easily beaten by all of the priority in the meta, unless you wanted to run Extreme Speed (gotta go fast).

  13. #88

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    I think Poison Jab is going to see an increase in usage among physical attacks, especially ones like Mienshao and Garchomp that are weak to Fairy attacks

  14. #89
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    garchomp hits fairies just as hard with earthquake so there's no point in using poison jab with it and iron head is only 10 base power more, not enough to be notable worth it

    As for florges, I doute it will rise back to OU as Sylveon is a better fairy wall with its hps and def as everyone said and hyper voice, but mega venusaur can also check everything florges does, bar the lati twins, as well as some physical threats it struggles with such as Conkeldurr, who idk why people think will drop in usage with powerful special attackers like manaphy and thundurus still in OU. I think we may see more Terrakions now tho as no one really runs scizor anymore making conkeldurr the most common answer to it making terrakion a real threat with a swords dance



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    You know, Terrakion is really loving these bans. Not only did it lose two of its more popular checks, but having Mega Lucario gone gets rid of some of Terrakion's biggest competition. Just to put Mega Lucario's power into perspective, a completely unboosted Close Combat coming from Mega Lucario had about 97% of the power of Terrakion's Choice Band-boosted Close Combat, and without giving up the freedom to switch moves! Sure, its coverage moves were weaker than Terrakion's secondary STAB, but that's still an insane amount of power. The extra speed is also pretty important, letting it outspeed things like Thundurus, Latios, Latias, Gengar, and Espeon, while not risking a speed tie with Terrakion, Keldeo, and Infernape. Even faster threats might be KO'd by one of Mega Lucario's many powerful priority options, something Terrakion never had access to. Terrakion may not have been completely outclassed by Mega Lucario, but when it came to fast and powerful Fighting-types, Mega Lucario was just such an attractive choice that Terrakion was often left by the wayside. Now that it's gone, I have no doubt that Terrakion will get a bit more attention.

    Speaking of which, Terrakion is pretty fantastic in this metagame. It can outspeed and check Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir (even survives a +2 Quick Attack pretty comfortably), Garchomp, Heatran, Excadrill, Goodra, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Bullet Punch-less Lucario, and a whole mess of other Pokemon. Scarf sets can additionally check things like DD Mega Charizard X, QD Volcarona, DD (Mega) Gyarados, DD Mega Tyranitar, DD Dragonite, DD and Scarf Salamence, Thundurus (although Thunder Wave will cripple Terrakion), Greninja, and Infernape. Even physically defensive Mega Venusuar, one of the best physically bulky tanks in the metagame, can be 2HKO'd by a CB Stone Edge most of the time after Stealth Rock, while it fails to OHKO back with Giga Drain without serious SpA investment. Even Landorus-T and Gliscor can fall victim to the Life Orb + 4 Attacks set, which is a pretty fantastic lure. Landorus-T is usually KO'd by switching into Stone Edge with Stealth Rock down followed by HP Ice, and Gliscor is guaranteed to drop to the same combination (unless it uses Protect and its Toxic Orb has already activated, in which case Terrakion still has a solid chance of coming out on top). One piece of advice, though: always run Earthquake on Terrakion. Being walled by Aegislash is a very bad thing, and Terrakion needs Earthquake to do any meaningful damage to it. Besides, the damage output is pretty impressive; 252/0 variants of Aegislash are losing ~2/3 of their health on average to Life Orb Terrakion's Earthquake, while 4/0 versions lose up to 90% (and Choice Band Terrakion puts up even more impressive numbers). Since Aegislash is often used as a switch-in to attacks given its great typing and bulk, there's a good chance that it would have taken at least some damage earlier in the match, increasing Terrakion's chances of beating it 1-on-1.

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    Scizor, Azumarrill and Iron Fist Infernape still check Terrakion

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    none want to take a stone edge, plus the only one thats somewhat common is azumarill, and its not that common



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    The only things that truly check Terrakion are bulky ground types. The only common one that comes to mind is Garchomp, and even HE loses 90% of the time.

    In all honesty, Aegislash is the closest thing to a counter, and Earthquake wrecks him.

    Maybe mega Venusaur?
    Last edited by Cloneblazer12; 18th February 2014 at 10:18 PM.

  19. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Trainer Riana View Post
    Scizor, Azumarrill and Iron Fist Infernape still check Terrakion
    Oh yeah, he's got his checks and a few counters (even if they can be worked around), but he still matches up so well against a lot of the more common and dangerous Pokemon in the metagame.

    Needless to say, I love Terrakion. :3

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    Kyurem Black also benefits from the bans as lucario was a huge deterrent to it, as was genesect. While the new things that will fill gaps such as conk and keldeo will threaten Kyurem Black, it's still a lot better now as theres a handful of threats that can actually come into its sub set and live, namely Conk and sylveon, but it can also pressure all common mega, neither charizard wants to take an ice beam or fusion bolt same with pinsir, while mawile dies to earth power.



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    Man, I was enjoying the practically non usage of Kyurem B. I use Conk, but that Attack stat is too damn high.

    WHat else counters him?

  22. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Man, I was enjoying the practically non usage of Kyurem B. I use Conk, but that Attack stat is too damn high.

    WHat else counters him?
    The less powerful Substitute sets can be beaten by Pokemon along those same lines, those with good mixed bulk like Chansey, Cresselia, Umbreon, etc. The powerhouses with Life Orb or even Choice Band, however, have pretty much no solid counters. I guess if it's not carrying Iron Head or something, physically defensive Clefable can do a pretty good job, though. With Wish, Protect, and Magic Guard protecting it from hazard damage, it can switch into even a Choice Band Fusion Bolt and survive. Specially offensive Life Orb variants can do a lot of damage with Ice Beam, but if Clefable doesn't switch directly into that move, it can stall Kyurem-B out with Wish + Protect until it kills itself with Life Orb recoil. It's not a perfect counter, but that might be your best bet.

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    The best method of handling more offensive Cubes, in my opinion, is revenge killing. Almost nothing can take a hit from that monster, but it has plenty of easily exploited weaknesses and is moderately slow. Terrakion (another use for Terrakion), Keldeo, etc. can all come in, outspeed naturally or with a Scarf, and do heavy damage with their super effective STABs. Another hard check to the Substitute sets is Sylveon, as Pixilate Hyper Voice hits through Subs and can OHKO Cube after Substitute damage or Stealth Rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    The best method of handling more offensive Cubes, in my opinion, is revenge killing. Almost nothing can take a hit from that monster, but it has plenty of easily exploited weaknesses and is moderately slow. Terrakion (another use for Terrakion), Keldeo, etc. can all come in, outspeed naturally or with a Scarf, and do heavy damage with their super effective STABs. Another hard check to the Substitute sets is Sylveon, as Pixilate Hyper Voice hits through Subs and can OHKO Cube after Substitute damage or Stealth Rock.
    In all honesty, that's the best way to handle anything. Switch in something you don't need, let him die, then switch into whatever it is that can kill him. That goes for pretty much every offensive poke in the meta game.

    I know I'm gonna get hate for this, but Luke died to pretty much every scarfer, since extreme speed/bullet punch / Vaccuum Wave, while powerful, were rarely enough to OHKO anything unless it was super effective. (Please note that I'm not trying to justify him, but that he was easily beaten this way).

    With Cubes (as u liked to call him) having an attack stat of 170, and very few safe switch ins (mainly fairies and AV Conk), I don't see how that's exactly healthy for the meta game. He was even worse last gen, thanks to there being no fairy type last gen.

    Did I mention his great bulk and mixed capabilities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    I know I'm gonna get hate for this, but Luke died to pretty much every scarfer, since extreme speed/bullet punch / Vaccuum Wave, while powerful, were rarely enough to OHKO anything unless it was super effective. (Please note that I'm not trying to justify him, but that he was easily beaten this way).
    The same could be said for most Pokemon though. Being checked by a Scarfer isn't exactly unique to Mega Lucario, and again, it's only a check, not a counter. Most Scarfers couldn't switch into Mega Lucario given they're either 1HKO'd by the Close Combat, or if they're not, the follow-up priority would usually be enough to finish them off. It would be necessary to sacrifice a Pokemon just to check him, given he had few (if any) safe switch-ins, was part of the reason for his downfall. Plus, overcentralizing and all that jazz.
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