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Thread: Greninja Discussion Thread

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    Why do I see greninjas running scald now? Is there something I wasn't aware of? I mean even after a burn, greninja would still be kinda frail...
    Because the people running that have no knowledge of the metagame, or what's good for that matter. I'm sure that the rest of their teams are trash too.

    Hydro Pump>>>>>>>>>>>>Scald.

    Never use it. Greninja needs the extra 50% power provided by Hydro Pump.

  2. #52

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    ...or maybe it's because Scald is one of the best offensive moves in the game because it has a solid damage output and has the bonus of potentially hurting Water resists with a burn while also not having the accuracy problems of Hydro Pump. I mean, I'd probably rather run Hydro Pump 90% of the time, but as far as the more accurate alternatives go, Scald is really good. Several solid switch-ins to common Greninja sets such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Gyarados could honestly not care less about Hydro Pump, but none of them like to be burned by Scald (and several of them are outright crippled by the burn). Its a Water move that you can spam with ease and still potentially cripple any Water resists that switch in on you. Besides, close to 1/5 Greninja run Scald in the 1760 moveset statistics, so it's not like only bad players are using it.

    Also, Hydro Pump is 37.5% stronger than Scald, not 50%.

  3. #53
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    I guess that makes sense. I'd still rather have the power tho. I find that Scald is best used for defensive Pokémon, since they benefit the most from burns. And what exactly does Megasaur lose from a burn aside from 12.5% HP? Earthquake I guess, but it's not like Megasaur relies on that move for everything.

    I keep forgetting about the power drop from 120 to 110, which is why I said 50%

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    ...or maybe it's because Scald is one of the best offensive moves in the game because it has a solid damage output and has the bonus of potentially hurting Water resists with a burn while also not having the accuracy problems of Hydro Pump. I mean, I'd probably rather run Hydro Pump 90% of the time, but as far as the more accurate alternatives go, Scald is really good. Several solid switch-ins to common Greninja sets such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Gyarados could honestly not care less about Hydro Pump, but none of them like to be burned by Scald (and several of them are outright crippled by the burn). Its a Water move that you can spam with ease and still potentially cripple any Water resists that switch in on you. Besides, close to 1/5 Greninja run Scald in the 1760 moveset statistics, so it's not like only bad players are using it.

    Also, Hydro Pump is 37.5% stronger than Scald, not 50%.
    See that's what I thought...but it doesn't make much sense to me because that only works with greninja if you can accurately predict the switch and get the chance to burn the thing switching in...If the opponent decides to stay in, then greninja's going down considering scald can't really OKO things that are neutrally resistant even with life orb (I have a modest one with maxed special attack and it's scald can't OKO scizors even with rock damage)...that's why I switched over to surf...it has good power and great accuracy (unlike hydro pump)...and it can OKO most nonresistant things with rock damage...for a pokemon so focused on power like greninja, I thought it needed power moves more than getting a potential burn...
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  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    And what exactly does Megasaur lose from a burn aside from 12.5% HP?
    It's mostly just the 1/8 damage every turn. Mega Venusaur hates burns since it has no Leftovers recovery and thus is affected a lot more by residual damage than if it had them. It's the single greatest reason why it's a shaky switch-in to Rotom-W.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    See that's what I thought...but it doesn't make much sense to me because that only works with greninja if you can accurately predict the switch and get the chance to burn the thing switching in...
    The great thing about Scald is that you don't have to predict. Water is just a great offensive type in general, and with the exception of Water-immune Pokemon, a handful of things that can heal status, and bulky versions of Mega Charizard X, everything that switches into Scald is going to be hit really hard and/or risk suffering a burn. There are also a ton of Pokemon that were commonly used last generation to handle Scald through immunities or status healing that are far less common in XY, such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, Vaporeon, Celebi, and Starmie, which is great for Scald spam.

    If the opponent decides to stay in, then greninja's going down considering scald can't really OKO things that are neutrally resistant even with life orb (I have a modest one with maxed special attack and it's scald can't OKO scizors even with rock damage)...that's why I switched over to surf...it has good power and great accuracy (unlike hydro pump)...and it can OKO most nonresistant things with rock damage...for a pokemon so focused on power like greninja, I thought it needed power moves more than getting a potential burn...
    To be fair, even Modest LO Hydro Pump rarely OHKOs Scizor after Stealth Rock unless it's fully offensive with no HP investment, which is pretty rare. I understand the need for more power, but I'd just rather go for Hydro Pump in that case. When it comes to Scald vs Surf as far as more accurate options to, I almost always go for Scald just because that burn chance is so insane. If you can get a successful burn, Scald can even outdamage Surf in the long run, and it'll continue to damage burned opponents even after Greninja has left the field. ginganinja from Smogon had a good summary of what makes Scald so good in a thread about banning philosophy a while back.

    Quote Originally Posted by ginganinja
    For those that are unused to OU, the main reason why Scald is so frustrating is because there lacks any decent counter play towards it. Your best defence, against Scald, is to use Dry Skin / Water Absorb / Storm Drain / Natural Cure mons, of which there is a limited number, or simply pray you don’t get screwed over by an untimely burn, which simply happens more often than not because it is very easy for Rain teams to use the move, consistently spam it, and get the burns required.

    In regards to the move itself, it has average base power, it gets boosted by the ever common rain, it has no shortage of abusers (ie pokemon that can rely upon it as a general STAB move), it has a 30% burn rate, and it is just so spammable which makes switching in exceptionally difficult. Often, I can bring in my Tentacruel, my Jellicent, my Politoed, and literally 90% of the time, spamming Scald is always the best option because I can a) get good damage on something, and b) have a 30% chance at crippling the best switch-ins to Scald. Ferrothorn for example, cannot switch in on Tentacruel, heck, Tentacruel often switches in on Ferrothorn, simply because it can and will burn Ferrothorn thus crippling it for the rest of the match. Even Latias and Rotom-W hate getting burnt, because that residual damage, along with the ever common Stealth Rock (for instance), just pushes them into KOs from other high powered sweepers such as Keldeo.
    Obviously, not all of this still applies. Several of the safe switch-ins ginganinja mentioned aren't as common or viable anymore, but at the same time, Rain isn't omnipresent like it used to be, but there's still a lot of truth there that still applies to today's metagame. It's all up to preference really, so it really depends on if there's some particular KOs that you need that extra 12.5% power to achieve.

    tl;dr: STAB Scald is pretty much always a good option.

  6. #56
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    This guy has the potential of being in ubers once people get the hang of using him.
    Early in battles to attempt a sweep is really ridiculous. Using a Greninja late in battle nearly always guarantees a win.... Too OP, I had to retrain my Aerodactyl's ev's just specifically to finish them... Their speed is phenomenal, boosted with whatever nature raises their speed makes them impossible to relinquish. However, they do a fine job at beating other ubers. Probably the best for exterminating dragons in my opinion, so salamence and garchomp aren't as powerful as they used to be. However a long range of other powerhouses are put down quite easily by this stupid looking Kermit.. What do you guys think?
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  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulTheBreeder View Post
    This guy has the potential of being in ubers once people get the hang of using him.
    Early in battles to attempt a sweep is really ridiculous. Using a Greninja late in battle nearly always guarantees a win.... Too OP, I had to retrain my Aerodactyl's ev's just specifically to finish them... Their speed is phenomenal, boosted with whatever nature raises their speed makes them impossible to relinquish. However, they do a fine job at beating other ubers. Probably the best for exterminating dragons in my opinion, so salamence and garchomp aren't as powerful as they used to be. However a long range of other powerhouses are put down quite easily by this stupid looking Kermit.. What do you guys think?
    Um... no. Greninja falls well short of being Uber. It'd just be a poor man's Deoxys-A in Uber. Its base 122 Speed is by all means great, but it's not unbeatable. It may have STAB on everything (which is nice), but its base 103 Special Attack isn't especially high. It's also very frail and can't take a hit to save its life; it's at least 2HKO'd by virtually everything in the Metagame, meaning its hard to switch in. It's also pretty predictable; virtually every offensive Greninja in existence will be carrying Life Orb, Hydro Pump/Surf/Scald, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam, plus either U-Turn or Extrasensory. It's also pretty easy to check with priority due to its extreme frailty, especially when its type change can remove resistances. For example, just KO'd Dragonite with Ice Beam? Prone to being checked by Bullet Punches. Just KO'd Gengar with Dark Pulse? Better watch out for those Mach Punches.

    Greninja is certainly good, but saying it'll be uber is a MASSIVE overstatement.
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  8. #58
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    There's still no chance of him being Ubers. He's not overcentralizing in any way on OU. Draco explained this pretty much already, so I don't feel like restating what he already said.

  9. #59
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    Pretty far from uber. Strong mon though. Should pretty much always run U-turn, otherwise it's a complete liability against any defensive team. STAB U-turn does more than chip damage to any switch-in, which is pretty important against teams carrying Chansey. With U-turn you don't have to run Extrasensory for Venusaur as one switch-in to rocks and U-turn means it can't come in again. Feels really underwhelming to use, and really difficult to play against, particularly with offense.

  10. #60
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    For me, greninja is a missed opportunity. Less defenses than infernape (72/67/71 compared to 76/71/71), less attacking stats than infernape (95/103 compared to 104/104), and arguably a weaker movepool (infernape has access to nasty plot, swords dance, stealth rock, two different priority moves, and access to 8 different usable moves with 100 or more base power whereas greninja only has (toxic) spikes and hydro pump/acrobatics). The only redeeming quality of greninja is access to protean and 14 higher speed. Thus, greninja can hit initially harder than infernape can but is completely walled by more pokemon in the metagame.

    If you really want to screw over things though, using both on the same team is actually pretty decent as they have amazing synergy together, with greninja killing ground/dragon types/crobat and infernape killing off steels/blissey.
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  11. #61

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    Greninja is waaaaay better in this metagame than Infernape is. Protean and base 122 Spe are actually really big deals. Protean is so fantastic because it essentially tosses on a free Choice Band/Specs boost on to all of Greninja's coverage moves, which lets it blow past Pokemon that might otherwise be able to handle them. Just to put this power boost into perspective, a completely uninvested Timid LO Greninja's U-turn is hitting about as hard as a U-turn from a fully invested Jolly LO Infernape. Even though Greninja's bulk isn't great, it can still use Protean defensively to mess with checks and survive weaker hits. For instance, it can do massive damage to Rotom-W with HP Grass and reduce its Volt Switch to ~20% damage, whereas it would otherwise do upwards of ~87%. The extra speed is very important as well because it lets Greninja outspeed a lot of Pokemon that Infernape either loses to or is forced into a speed tie against, namely Latios, Latias, Gengar, Espeon, Thundurus, Terrakion, Keldeo, Starmie, Alakazam, and, of course, Infernape itself. In fact, Greninja outspeeds pretty much the entire unboosted metagame besides Deoxys-S and Mega Alakazam/Manectric.

    Infernape, on the other hand, just has a lot of problems. Its offenses are a little better than Greninja's, but that advantage is often negated by the fact that Infernape generally finds itself splitting offensive investment to take advantage of its mixed abilities. It also lacks the substantial power boost to its coverage moves that Greninja gets with Protean, which is one thing that makes Greninja so powerful since it can turn even Hidden Power into a strong coverage move. Above all else, though, Infernape just faces so much competition that it's generally not worth using over something else. As far as "fast Fighting-type that can attack specially and still get past Chansey/Blissey" goes, Keldeo is just such a better choice due to its excellent power, solid bulk, better typing, and lack of a need to split offenses in order to go mixed. On the physical side, Infernape faces a ton of competition from Terrakion as well due to the latter's much greater physical power, excellent neutral coverage between its STABs alone, and (again) better bulk. It also faces a ton of competition as an offensive Fire-type from Pokemon such as Talonflame and the Mega Charizards. Heck, even its abilities as a mixed attacker are often overshadowed by offensive behemoths like Kyurem-B. Meanwhile, nothing really gives Greninja a ton of competition. The only other specially offensive Water-types that come even close to Greninja's offensive prowess are Starmie and Keldeo, the former of which is almost completely overshadowed outside of Rapid Spin and the latter of which is fantastic but still lacks U-turn, Protean, strong Ice coverage, a solid coverage move to help get past Mega Venusaur (even Specs HP Flying can't guarantee a 2HKO on 252/0 MegaSaur without Stealth Rock), or a base 122 Spe stat, each of which are parts of what make Greninja so great.

    tl;dr: Greninja is really good, but Infernape is honestly pretty mediocre in this metagame.

  12. #62
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    ^ Just want to point out that Alakazam beats Greninja since he has a base 125 speed stat. I'm assuming you thought it was base 120 or something.

    ... Anyways, I'd just like to say that physical Greninja is actually pretty good. Power Up Punch / Rock Slide / Waterfall / Shadow Sneak / Night Slash (pick four) allow him to face many threats that think they can beat him. Most notably, Mega TTar takes a clean 70% from Waterfall, which is a lot more than Hydro Pump will do. Considering that it will do even more against AV TTar, that in itself is impressive. He's not as powerful as the special set, but it definitely deserves more credit than it gets.

  13. #63

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    No, it is base 120.

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/065.shtml
    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...(Pok%C3%A9mon)

    EDIT: Oh yeah, and don't use physical Greninja. The surprise factor isn't worth the fact that physical Greninja is so much weaker than special Greninja, especially considering its lower Atk stat and the fact that its strongest move is Waterfall, which does not actually outdamage Hydro Pump against Mega Tyranitar:

    252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (67.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The one good thing about physical Greninja is that it gets Power-Up Punch as a boosting move, which special sets lack, but it's still not that impressive seeing as how a +1 Waterfall barely outdamages a +0 Hydro Pump. Greninja is far better off just tossing around Hydro Pumps and other powerful special coverage moves than trying to sweep with a Power-Up Punch set. Even its special coverage moves are better, and it can compensate for any coverage it doesn't already have with a STAB-boosted Hidden Power of any type it chooses.

    Maybe if Greninja had Swords Dance, Flying Gem was still a thing, and Water Shuriken had like 25 BP, I could see a Swords Dance / Acrobatics / Night Slash / Water Shuriken (or even just Waterfall, if you prefer more reliable Water coverage over priority) working pretty well, but alas.
    Last edited by jesusfreak94; 26th March 2014 at 4:15 AM.

  14. #64
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    I could've sworn it was base 125...

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    ... Anyways, I'd just like to say that physical Greninja is actually pretty good. Power Up Punch / Rock Slide / Waterfall / Shadow Sneak / Night Slash (pick four) allow him to face many threats that think they can beat him. Most notably, Mega TTar takes a clean 70% from Waterfall, which is a lot more than Hydro Pump will do. Considering that it will do even more against AV TTar, that in itself is impressive. He's not as powerful as the special set, but it definitely deserves more credit than it gets.
    Physical Greninja is definitely an interesting concept. It does have a certain surprise value to it since the the bulk of Greninja are specially based, so its typical counters are as well. Seems like an interesting lure set, although the general decrease in power could be somewhat noticeable as well. Certainly far from standard, but usable for sure.
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  16. #66
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    Physical Greninja is an awesome surprise Pokémon. Blissey takes good damage from PuP and from there, the Attack boost and the great Speed allow Greninja to pull off a surprise sweep.

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